If Knowledge Is Power Then Could This Cause Science Breakthroughs?

[Spacescifi]

All technology is based on the accumluated knowledge of those before us.

Scenario: Human engineered offshoots designed so that they instinctually have various knowledge bases pre-downloaded in their brains as instinct.

If they so desire they know exactly what is needed to say... build a nuclear reactor, even if they only have sticks and stones in the forest

 

Grand scenario: Breed a thousand of these supermind guys and gals... with a working engineering knowledge of ALL known rocket science and theoretical rocket science... could they build stuff we have not already?

 

My guess is yeah!

Since they would be well aware of what has been done, they would be well prepared to improve on it. More than you group of average.... humans who have less memory overall.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Spacescifi

[SunlitZelkova]

I don't see how they would have any advantage over humans.

Humans are already building "stuff" out of instinct anyways. A complex web of instinct (at this point in societal and technological advancement), but still instinct nonetheless.

These humans would still need to wait 20 some years before being emotionally capable of doing these things they wish to without throwing tantrums or giving up and engaging in some comforting leisure activity.

Memory wise it is no different than humans who actually study the stuff "naturally" and then decide to improve upon it.

[Spacescifi]

1 hour ago, SunlitZelkova said:

I don't see how they would have any advantage over humans.

Humans are already building "stuff" out of instinct anyways. A complex web of instinct (at this point in societal and technological advancement), but still instinct nonetheless.

These humans would still need to wait 20 some years before being emotionally capable of doing these things they wish to without throwing tantrums or giving up and engaging in some comforting leisure activity.

Memory wise it is no different than humans who actually study the stuff "naturally" and then decide to improve upon it.

 

They have a headstart.... and fictionally there is nothing preventing humans who made them from giving them compelling reason to tackle what challenges normal humans.

Namely.... do what they were made for or else!

They were not made to just.... take it easy.

 

I am fully aware of all the drama this would cause... but when has technology ever come about without struggle or drama?

Edited February 13, 2022 by Spacescifi

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

There is a dissonance between instinct and learned knowledge.

You're in the scifi realm, so you can define anything as anything however you like it; but functionally in this world

• learned knowledge/skills>inherent knowledge

[Spacescifi]

17 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

There is a dissonance between instinct and learned knowledge.

You're in the scifi realm, so you can define anything as anything however you like it; but functionally in this world

• learned knowledge/skills>inherent knowledge

 

True.... and yet we find stuff like this via instinct... since I seriously doubt the pufferfish spends much if any time practicing to learn this.... beyond times he made it and failed to attract a female.

 

https://www.livescience.com/40132-underwater-mystery-circles.html

 

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

17 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

 

True.... and yet we find stuff like this via instinct... since I seriously doubt the pufferfish spends much if any time practicing to learn this.... beyond times he made it and failed to attract a female.

 

https://www.livescience.com/40132-underwater-mystery-circles.html

 

I'm aware of that stuff.  Engineering is a tad more difficult

[Beamer]

Just now, Spacescifi said:

 

True.... and yet we find stuff like this via instinct... since I seriously doubt the pufferfish spends much if any time practicing to learn this.... beyond times he made it and failed to attract a female.

 

https://www.livescience.com/40132-underwater-mystery-circles.html

 

But that's exactly how it works of course. the ones that failed to attract a mate didn't breed and their genes for making imperfect structures weren't passed along. They didn't learn to make perfect structures (in a single lifetime), they evolved to do so instinctively (over many generations). At one point there were a lot that made 'imperfect' ones but the ones that were slightly better were more successful and over time the entire population became really good at it.

The real mystery isn't that they make these perfect structures, if it increases the chance of procreation then given enough time and generations that is almost inevitable. The thing that is much harder to explain is how and why the other half of the species decided that this represented a sign of fitness, and a perfect square or triangle or an oval with the golden ratio did not.

The commentary is a bit hyperbole/poetic mind you. "Nowhere else in nature does an animal construct something as complex and perfect as this"... hmm, I think there are quite a few spider, bird, bee, wasp, ant and termite species who'd like to dispute that claim, and that's just the first few that come to mind. I think what Sir Attenburough really meant was "something as beautiful as this", but of course that's a subjective human idea and while most female puffer fish might agree, no bird of paradise would.

 

[Spacescifi]

1 hour ago, Beamer said:

But that's exactly how it works of course. the ones that failed to attract a mate didn't breed and their genes for making imperfect structures weren't passed along. They didn't learn to make perfect structures (in a single lifetime), they evolved to do so instinctively (over many generations). At one point there were a lot that made 'imperfect' ones but the ones that were slightly better were more successful and over time the entire population became really good at it.

The real mystery isn't that they make these perfect structures, if it increases the chance of procreation then given enough time and generations that is almost inevitable. The thing that is much harder to explain is how and why the other half of the species decided that this represented a sign of fitness, and a perfect square or triangle or an oval with the golden ratio did not.

The commentary is a bit hyperbole/poetic mind you. "Nowhere else in nature does an animal construct something as complex and perfect as this"... hmm, I think there are quite a few spider, bird, bee, wasp, ant and termite species who'd like to dispute that claim, and that's just the first few that come to mind. I think what Sir Attenburough really meant was "something as beautiful as this", but of course that's a subjective human idea and while most female puffer fish might agree, no bird of paradise would.

 

 

Humans do not inherit genetic skill memory like the animals do.

You cannpt breed two geniuses together and expect a long line of Einsteins if you keep it up.

Yet with animals.... dogs for example... you can literally breed for personality traits!

Humans are not that way... and any one who posits otherwise would quickly run afoul of forum rules.

The OP only queries what could occur if skills could be preloaded without having to learn them.... from birth. Any after would be learned.

[kerbiloid]

Thanks to KSP, all of us can into rocket science.

Does it help us?

Edited February 13, 2022 by kerbiloid

[KSK]

You’ve basically given your offshoots a great big onboard library. They might use that to develop new knowledge or they might not. You could certainly assume they would for the purpose of a story but I don’t think it would be guaranteed.

Personal example - I was pretty good at learning about science and passing exams in it. I was far less good at actually doing science and creating new knowledge.

Also, genetics is genetics. Humans aren’t special in that regard and I’m pretty sure you could breed humans for specific traits in the same way that dogs are bred. We just have a bunch of taboos and morals that prevent us from doing so, not to mention that ‘eugenics’ has a well earned historical no-no.

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by KSK

[Spacescifi]

1 hour ago, KSK said:

You’ve basically given your offshoots a great big onboard library. They might use that to develop new knowledge or they might not. You could certainly assume they would for the purpose of a story but I don’t think it would be guaranteed.

Personal example - I was pretty good at learning about science and passing exams in it. I was far less good at actually doing science and creating new knowledge.

Also, genetics is genetics. Humans aren’t special in that regard and I’m pretty sure you could breed humans for specific traits in the same way that dogs are bred. We just have a bunch of taboos and morals that prevent us from doing so, not to mention that ‘eugenics’ has a well earned historical no-no.

 

 

As much as you may loath what I will say.... I never assumed it.

Humans would ENFORCE that they develop new science and technology to progress humanity and solve the seemingly unsolvable.

I am well aware this will come back as a bunch of negative karma from superminds who chafe at this. But not all would.....

Edited February 13, 2022 by Spacescifi

[KSK]

You can enforce ‘solving the unsolvable’  all you like. That doesn’t mean that it’s actually possible.

Plus, it’s an inherently stupid setup anyway.

“Have you solved this problem yet?”

“No - because it’s impossible.”

”I don’t care. Solve it.”

”Here is a mathematical proof of why it’s impossible.”

”Our best minds cannot understand your maths and don’t believe you.”

”Naturally you don’t understand our maths. If you did, you wouldn’t need us around.”

”I grow tired of your insolence. Solve this problem or die.”

“OK genius. How is killing your problem solvers going to solve the problem.”

 

 

[Spacescifi]

9 minutes ago, KSK said:

You can enforce ‘solving the unsolvable’  all you like. That doesn’t mean that it’s actually possible.

Plus, it’s an inherently stupid setup anyway.

“Have you solved this problem yet?”

“No - because it’s impossible.”

”I don’t care. Solve it.”

”Here is a mathematical proof of why it’s impossible.”

”Our best minds cannot understand your maths and don’t believe you.”

”Naturally you don’t understand our maths. If you did, you wouldn’t need us around.”

”I grow tired of your insolence. Solve this problem or die.”

“OK genius. How is killing your problem solvers going to solve the problem.”

 

 

 

Nah... humans are not Goauld level stupid. But that would be a very neat trick for the superminds to employ on the humans.

 

Hint: They solved it, but are developing it for a foreign state that gives them more agency with regard to their future.

EDIT: And knowing what is unsolvable currently and what is not is very useful information... since it precludes wasted efforts and money spent on chasing the impossible dream.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Spacescifi

[kerbiloid]

"We" need not a preloaded knowledge, but a loadable/unloadable knowledge modules for various situations, possessing the body and doing the work with your understanding of what happens here in whole.

Why study a neurosurgery just to cure a colleague head damage in wild nature once per life, when you can load, do, and  unload?

Why study the shooting or martial arts, when they can be temporarily loaded, and then unloaded (when the road is clear and you can quickly run away after loading the runner plugin) ?

Why learn playing _cards on piano, or on guitar, or on any other flat top musical tool, when it's required just from time to time?

The loadable content is much more handy.

Edited February 13, 2022 by kerbiloid

[Spacescifi]

5 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

"We" need not a preloaded knowledge, but a loadable/unloadable knowledge modules for various situations, possessing the body and doing the work with your understanding of what happens here in whole.

Why study a neurosurgery just to cure a colleague head damage in wild nature once per life, when you can load, do, and  unload?

Why study the shooting or martial arts, when they can be temporarily loaded, and then unloaded (when the road is clear and you can quickly run away after loading the runner plugin) ?

Why learn playing _cards on piano, or on guitar, or on any other flat top musical tool, when it's required just from time to time?

The loadable content is much more handy.

 

That is arguably less realistic due to the way brains functions.

If I read online correctly, memories involve synapses forming connections over and over. Like wrapping your hands with yarn, the more you do it, the harder it will be remove it from memory.

Brains are not like computers since information cannot be deleted or removed... only installed, suppressed, or repressed.

[SunlitZelkova]

21 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

 

They have a headstart.... and fictionally there is nothing preventing humans who made them from giving them compelling reason to tackle what challenges normal humans.

Namely.... do what they were made for or else!

They were not made to just.... take it easy.

 

I am fully aware of all the drama this would cause... but when has technology ever come about without struggle or drama?

What challenges are humans experiencing?

Humans weren't made to take it easy. I don't think they were "made to do" anything*, but using human logic, it appears as though they basically develop, reproduce, protect offspring until it can manage on its own, and then die. They also do a lot for their community/tribe along the way.

These modified humans you propose certainly could do stuff, but I still don't see their advantage over humans. Remember, just because they will immediately possess advanced knowledge from birth doesn't mean they will be use it.

You could make them use it, but then that gets into dark territory like child labor. I suppose, looking at the rest of the discussion, that this event takes place under dark circumstances anyways though.

[kerbiloid]

6 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

That is arguably less realistic due to the way brains functions.

Nobody knows how does the brain function beyond a pure physiology and the most destructive malfunctions.

How does a butterfly learn to fly? And it doesn't have a real brain,

Do the twins joined with heads "hear" the thoughts of each other?
Afair, they do (one gives answers) on what another is watching), though at the same time they are two different personalities.

What if make such cyber twin without a personality, but with  reloadable memory?

[Spacescifi]

3 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

What challenges are humans experiencing?

Humans weren't made to take it easy. I don't think they were "made to do" anything*, but using human logic, it appears as though they basically develop, reproduce, protect offspring until it can manage on its own, and then die. They also do a lot for their community/tribe along the way.

These modified humans you propose certainly could do stuff, but I still don't see their advantage over humans. Remember, just because they will immediately possess advanced knowledge from birth doesn't mean they will be use it.

You could make them use it, but then that gets into dark territory like child labor. I suppose, looking at the rest of the discussion, that this event takes place under dark circumstances anyways though.

 

The 'usual' ones.

 

 

If WW2 taught me anything it is that knowledge itself can be weaponized.

Whether it is cyber or physically destructive, it can be used as such.

Superminds would also be weaponized provided an outbreak of sudden peace does not occur.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Spacescifi

[MKI]

On 2/12/2022 at 4:52 PM, Spacescifi said:

Human engineered offshoots designed so that they instinctually have various knowledge bases pre-downloaded in their brains as instinct.

Wait... don't humans naturally lack a lot of instinct by default, and this is "by design" to get their large heads later out of the womb?

Its one thing to "download knowledge bases" but us humans don't exactly have even the basics down when we are born. IE we can't walk, or talk, let alone feed ourselves or wipe our own butts or  for years. 

My understanding is this is "by design", as an infants skull cannot get any bigger or complicated before running into problems during birth. Birth is already risky, so the idea of "downloading more firmware before shipping the POC into the world" might not be physically possible.

 

If you were a mad scientist I'd actually go with the scheme of trying to make people learn faster. I have no idea what it would take to do this, I assume "more synapsis connections" or something fancy like that would help. Its one thing to teach every baby literally how to fish automatically, its another if that baby can figure out how to fish quicker than the average person. Expanding on that could be a way to increase progress. (or increase the likely hood we get enslaved by a bunch of super genius meta-humans haha)

[Spacescifi]

4 hours ago, MKI said:

Wait... don't humans naturally lack a lot of instinct by default, and this is "by design" to get their large heads later out of the womb?

Its one thing to "download knowledge bases" but us humans don't exactly have even the basics down when we are born. IE we can't walk, or talk, let alone feed ourselves or wipe our own butts or  for years. 

My understanding is this is "by design", as an infants skull cannot get any bigger or complicated before running into problems during birth. Birth is already risky, so the idea of "downloading more firmware before shipping the POC into the world" might not be physically possible.

 

If you were a mad scientist I'd actually go with the scheme of trying to make people learn faster. I have no idea what it would take to do this, I assume "more synapsis connections" or something fancy like that would help. Its one thing to teach every baby literally how to fish automatically, its another if that baby can figure out how to fish quicker than the average person. Expanding on that could be a way to increase progress. (or increase the likely hood we get enslaved by a bunch of super genius meta-humans haha)

 

I dunno... you are playing with fire... since your version of super genuis is even more potent than mine.

 

Yet there is a way to ensure these offshoots can be born.... semi-naturally.

They would have to be born twice as it were... and leave the second womb as a seven year old child.

What secondary womb?

Well. . . the tech in the setting is ALREADY high, so have the baby normally... except it would need to be inserted into 'downloader knowledge base' exo-womb right away or it would soon die.

After spending about a week in there the child would be deposited out the womb all sticky.... but able to walk and talk like any seven year old.... but of course lacking the maturity.

Year one for these guys and gals would be... taxing on their caregivers to say the least.

 

[MKI]

1 hour ago, Spacescifi said:

Well. . . the tech in the setting is ALREADY high, so have the baby normally... except it would need to be inserted into 'downloader knowledge base' exo-womb right away or it would soon die.

After spending about a week in there the child would be deposited out the womb all sticky.... but able to walk and talk like any seven year old.... but of course lacking the maturity.

Year one for these guys and gals would be... taxing on their caregivers to say the least.

So basically you have a normal kid, but then "download knowledge to their brain" after they are born.

I think your describing the current education system, except since your sounds very expensive, I assume it would be more like a well funded and well executed education system with help with science breakthroughs by educating the masses! 

I think this is an excellent idea bahaha!

 

 

[Spacescifi]

29 minutes ago, MKI said:

So basically you have a normal kid, but then "download knowledge to their brain" after they are born.

I think your describing the current education system, except since your sounds very expensive, I assume it would be more like a well funded and well executed education system with help with science breakthroughs by educating the masses! 

I think this is an excellent idea bahaha!

 

 

Not quite.... lifespan is a bit shorter because of the rapid aging to 7 to achieve the knowledge download.

A lifespan shorted seven years.

Beyond this at least in my fiction they would look like your average palette swapped star trek humanoid.... odd color but still looks human overall.

 

The reason for such a striking look is so they could not easily pretend to be human in disguise.

Not that they look like this.... but you get the idea...

 

Spoiler

 

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

On 2/13/2022 at 1:27 AM, Spacescifi said:

Humans do not inherit genetic skill memory like the animals do.

You cannpt breed two geniuses together and expect a long line of Einsteins if you keep it up.

Yet with animals.... dogs for example... you can literally breed for personality traits!

Humans are not that way... and any one who posits otherwise would quickly run afoul of forum rules

I think you need to revisit this.  Most human traits are heritable - height, hair color, intelligence and many many others do run in families. 

Also - 'instinct' is often overstated. 

Quote

a closer look reveals that these and other “instincts” are not satisfactorily described as inborn, pre-programmed, hardwired, or genetically determined. Rather, research in this area teaches us that species-typical behaviors develop—and they do so in every individual under the guidance of species-typical experiences occurring within reliable ecological contexts

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5182125/

[Spacescifi]

4 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

I think you need to revisit this.  Most human traits are heritable - height, hair color, intelligence and many many others do run in families. 

Also - 'instinct' is often overstated. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5182125/

Well yes... animals are capable of learning.... even insects.

Instinct is just a basic starting point. Still impressive at times though.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

My point is that 'instinct' may not exist.  There is a whole hell of a lot of bias in the early literature about it. 

Do read the article