Lord Of The Flies... I Just Found It

[Spacescifi]

So am going to watch both movie versions and read the book too.... since I did not as a child snd only heard of it in passing.

 

I find it fascinating. Interestingly in the old black and white original movie version, Jack seems kind of like a jock tough guy kid, who seems to want to help the group out. Yet he can be condescending and jerkish to those he thinks are inferior (the fat kid).

Later he will prove to be the instigator of much that goes horribly wrong.

 

I like this book/story because it shows that the greatest danger to us is and always will be... us.

Jack ultimately will rule through fear and cruelty, as opposed to logic and compassion where possible, which is what should have occurred but did'nt.

Fear and cruelty won.

 

But it does not have to. We all have the choice. Each and everyday. Sure we will all fail from time to time... but I do think an overall positive pattern is better than a negative one.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Spacescifi

[Nuke]

its also a fine example of how quickly civilization can fall apart. i consider it dystopian fiction. 

[tater]

1 hour ago, Nuke said:

its also a fine example of how quickly civilization can fall apart. i consider it dystopian fiction. 

The kids were just recapitulating the adults. They were being evacuated because of a war. In the 1950s.

BOOM

 

[kerbiloid]

To fall from, it first requires to climb onto. To degrade, it first requires to develop.

The anachronic sweet misconception about the children moral innocence was just clouding the fact that the children aren't enough developed to have strong and clear moral conceptions, and usually can't do something more evil than torture a small animal.

So, it's "very unexpected" to isolate several pre-pubertate boys like in the book and expect something good from them, but get something opposite.

Like the Russian proverb says "Boys and beasts are one loss".

Edited September 6, 2022 by kerbiloid

[Spacescifi]

1 hour ago, kerbiloid said:

To fall from, it first requires to climb onto. To degrade, it first requires to develop.

The anachronic sweet misconception about the children moral innocence was just clouding the fact that the children aren't enough developed to have strong and clear moral conceptions, and usually can't do something more evil than torture a small animal.

So, it's "very unexpected" to isolate several pre-pubertate boys like in the book and expect something good from them, but get something opposite.

Like the Russian proverb says "Boys and beasts are one loss".

 

That may be the Russian view, but it varies based on the culture.

Russians... at least culturally, correct me if wrong, tend to be more willing to suffer hardship... I dare say more than us Murricans.

I mean.. I have saw on the ISS that even the Russian toilet paper is rougher or thicker (cannot remember which) than the ones Americans use lol.

[tater]

The boys in the book are no different than the men in the world at large in the book.

[Spacescifi]

19 minutes ago, tater said:

The boys in the book are no different than the men in the world at large in the book.

In real life something like this happened with boys from Tonga.

 

Went the opposite way and they got along great, even cared for one that got injured.

 

A rare case of real life having a rosy ending as opposed to pure fiction.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/13/the-real-lord-of-the-flies-mano-totau-survivor-story-shipwreck-tonga-boys-ata-island-peter-warner

 

[kerbiloid]

Due to the absense of rational experience, weak critical thinking, and no established social relations, kids live in a blurry world, and thus are suggestible, morally unstable, and easily believe in stupid horror stories and anything they heard.
Their empathy is at the same time sentimental and sadistic, and the social conditions define what will prevail.

So, they just got a normal colony for young criminals.

36 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

Russians... at least culturally, correct me if wrong, tend to be more willing to suffer hardship.

Willing?

Edited September 6, 2022 by kerbiloid

[Spacescifi]

18 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

Due to the absense of rational experience, weak critical thinking, and no established social relations, kids live in a blurry world, and thus are suggestible, morally unstable, and easily believe in stupid horror stories and anything they heard.
Their empathy is at the same time sentimental and sadistic, and the social conditions define what will prevail.

So, they just got a normal colony for young criminals.

Willing?

 

Experienced? Able?

 

Russia has survived multiple civil wars and invasions and has been around longer than the USA... they know hardship.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Spacescifi

[kerbiloid]

The kids are same everywhere.

[Spacescifi]

3 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

The kids are same everywhere.

Except the ones from IRL Tonga who did Lord Of The Flies for real.

[magnemoe]

4 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

In real life something like this happened with boys from Tonga.

Went the opposite way and they got along great, even cared for one that got injured.

A rare case of real life having a rosy ending as opposed to pure fiction.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/13/the-real-lord-of-the-flies-mano-totau-survivor-story-shipwreck-tonga-boys-ata-island-peter-warner

Now these boys was friends who stole an boat, so its likely they would stick together after getting shipwrecked.

If it was an much larger group of kids who did not knew each other its much higher chance they would create factions. 

[kerbiloid]

It's enough to have A and B school classes, no need in a shipwreck or plane.

[Spacescifi]

9 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Now these boys was friends who stole an boat, so its likely they would stick together after getting shipwrecked.

If it was an much larger group of kids who did not knew each other its much higher chance they would create factions. 

 

Yeah... ideally boys and men would be like this song... but apparently that is only wishful thinking on a grand scale.

 

At least individually we can be better.

5 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

It's enough to have A and B school classes, no need in a shipwreck or plane.

 

Since you posit that the Lord Of The Fiies Scenario was inevitable, what do you think a smart kid who wanted to mitigate the problems if not possible to avoid them altogether would do if stuck on the island with the boys from the story?

 

What would you do if a boy and stuck with them?

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Spacescifi

[SunlitZelkova]

3 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

Since you posit that the Lord Of The Fiies Scenario was inevitable, what do you think a smart kid who wanted to mitigate the problems if not possible to avoid them altogether would do if stuck on the island with the boys from the story?

Aware this isn’t for me but I thought I would pop in and answer too.

I imagine they would suffer the same fate “smart people” (intellectuals?) often do in times of hardship or chaos when they try to make things better.

Be ignored, suppressed, imprisoned, or killed by the much more instinctual mob of masses.

IIRC the tale of such people in such times is virtually always remembered in a tragic manner in history. So it would make sense the same would occur in a Lord of the Flies scenario.

[Spacescifi]

24 minutes ago, SunlitZelkova said:

Aware this isn’t for me but I thought I would pop in and answer too.

I imagine they would suffer the same fate “smart people” (intellectuals?) often do in times of hardship or chaos when they try to make things better.

Be ignored, suppressed, imprisoned, or killed by the much more instinctual mob of masses.

IIRC the tale of such people in such times is virtually always remembered in a tragic manner in history. So it would make sense the same would occur in a Lord of the Flies scenario.

Thanks... I am interested in all replies.

Hmmm... well... I will level with you.

As a kid I was athletic naturally. Even now I retain it, though not to the same degree.

In school kids asked me to fight their bullies for them but I never did for two reasons.

1. My religious upbringing forbade it.

2. I had no desire to gain a following or entourage, which is what I feared may happen if I beat up the local big bad. I never wanted popularity for the sake of being popular even though I enjoyed being liked. I really only cared what my immediate friends and associates thought about me. Strangers? Not so much.

 

In a Lord of the Flies scenario, I would work hard to get rescued, and sooner or later get on Jack's bad side.

I am no leader per se, as I don't like to lead naturally, but neither am I a follower since I am naturally paranoid.

I am no wannabe killer, but if it comes down to me versus a fear mongering murderous tyrant, Jack would have to go.

My mercy has limits, and I think all humans can say that if they are honest with themselves.

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Spacescifi

[kerbiloid]

I believe the Lord of Flies picture is culturally affected (a setting, and other decorations).

Less spiritual guys would just fruit into a young gang.