Where are the lady (and non-binary) Kerbals at?

[msaspence]

I've started playing KSP2 with my 5-year-old daughter, Frida. She would like to know why there are no female Kerbonauts?

This seems like a huge oversight. The first game inspired many gamers to pursue careers in science. It seems a great shame to tell the next generation of KSP players that space is exclusively for the men.

PS She's a big fan of being able to paint her rocket Pink and Purple.

[modus]

But there are female kerbals? Valentina is the star of the whole show!

[msaspence]

She's the only one! And we killed her off on our second attempt to get to space*. All the other Kerbals are male and it doesn't seem to matter how many you kill and generate I don't think I've seen another female Kerbonaut.

*We were successful, she died a hero. More parachutes next time!

[modus]

Hmm. That's a shame. We need an astronaut complex to generate kerbals.

[The Aziz]

Seen plenty of those. They have hairstyles now you know, the only way to tell is really the eyeliner. And maybe head shape.

[MarcAbaddon]

Maybe they have culturally typical male names though? I'll need to take a loot at the Kerbal generator myself

[dvrabel]

The names are not obvious feminine or masculine but it does appear that 50% are men and 50% women.

With a random selection of 10 kerbals I have 6 women:

• Gregtop
•  Eleny
• Geofrie
• Valentina (naturally)
• Nedwin
• Wehrrod

And 4 men:

• Newbus
• Geofwin
• Tedbrett
• Douki

It is hard to tell the difference from the small portrait in the kerbal manager.

[Timbo]

Female Kerbals, yes! [snip]

Edited February 28, 2023 by Starhawk
Redacted by moderator

[GregA]

We also need a Necromonger Kerbal aka Space Goth Kids.  From Chronicles of Riddick.  While we are at it, there seem to be lots of Texan Hippy space fans as well.  Those ones would have longer hair, lots of denim, and a big bowie knife.

[The Aziz]

2 hours ago, Timbo said:

Female Kerbals, yes! [snip]

Well, since it doesn't say anywhere, and the appearance doesn't help either, how do you tell that Geoff Kerman with femal-ish head but short hair is male or female?

How would you describe a nonbinary Kerbal then?

Edited February 28, 2023 by Starhawk
Redacted by moderator

[msaspence]

I would say that, yes, many of the Kerbals are already pretty androgynous. 

Quote

We also need a Necromonger Kerbal aka Space Goth Kids.  From Chronicles of Riddick.  While we are at it, there seem to be lots of Texan Hippy space fans as well.  Those ones would have longer hair, lots of denim, and a big bowie knife.

I'm not sure if this comment is being entirely facetious, but I, for one, would love to see some alt Kerbals with more character. I think there is a non-superficial element to this, where it makes it easier to mentally track who is who, and which Kerbal's have somehow made it to veteran status. 

Speaking of Bowie, I would love to see a "Tom Kerman" complete with lightning bolt face paint.

[Bej Kerman]

8 hours ago, msaspence said:

I've started playing KSP2 with my 5-year-old daughter, Frida. She would like to know why there are no female Kerbonauts?

This seems like a huge oversight. The first game inspired many gamers to pursue careers in science. It seems a great shame to tell the next generation of KSP players that space is exclusively for the men.

PS She's a big fan of being able to paint her rocket Pink and Purple.

There is no gender. It's a good time to explain to her that the masculine, feminine and androgynous fashion choices picked by the Kerbals she sees can exist detached from gender. Frankly, I find the idea of male being a default gender for someone you don't know the gender of to be just as regressive as what you accuse KSP 2 of.

[snip]

Edited February 28, 2023 by Starhawk
Redacted by moderator

[msaspence]

12 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

There is no gender. It's a good time to explain to her that the masculine, feminine and androgynous fashion choices picked by the Kerbals she sees can exist detached from gender. Frankly, I find the idea of male being a default gender for someone you don't know the gender of to be just as regressive as what you accuse KSP 2 of.

I like the idea that the Kerbals, by their alien nature, are genderless, and we can't make any assumptions. But come on; they are obviously human proxies and clearly present as male or, less often, female. Fashion is a part of culture and thus cannot be detached from gender.

Even if the Kerbals are truly genderless (they're not), she didn't see any Kerbals that she identified with, and that's an easily fixed problem.

[Bej Kerman]

1 minute ago, msaspence said:

20 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

There is no gender. It's a good time to explain to her that the masculine, feminine and androgynous fashion choices picked by the Kerbals she sees can exist detached from gender. Frankly, I find the idea of male being a default gender for someone you don't know the gender of to be just as regressive as what you accuse KSP 2 of.

I like the idea that the Kerbals, by their alien nature, are genderless, and we can't make any assumptions. But come on; they are obviously human proxies and clearly present as male or, less often, female.

Hardly.

1 minute ago, msaspence said:

Fashion is a part of culture and thus cannot be detached from gender.

A man can wear a skirt if they so wish. Culture be damned.

2 minutes ago, msaspence said:

Even if the Kerbals are truly genderless (they're not), she didn't see any Kerbals that she identified with, and that's an easily fixed problem.

All that means is that she didn't find a Kerbal that fit her fashion preferences. If you say the game is presenting men as the astronauts and engineers, when half the Kerbals dress androgynous and there's no labels for gender at all, all that means is that you imposed your image or idea of a default gender onto them.

It's reasonable to assume KSP 2 will get a character customiser sometime before or during the release of multiplayer. That'll be the fix you are looking for, but it is a ways off. The game just came out and multiplayer is at the end of the public roadmap.

[Starhawk]

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[Cailean_556]

*Looks at my current roster of Kerbals in KSP1, which is 2/3 female - my team clearly didn't get the "exclusively for men" memo* 

Need I remind the OP that, without the contribution of women to the (especially US, as I am more familiar with that) space program, Apollo would never have launched. Google 'Apollo mission coder', 'Apollo mathematicians' and also Google 'Judith Love Cohen'. While you're at it, show your daughter.

And, while a woman hasn't landed on the moon yet, a woman and a person of colour will be among the first, if not the first, astronauts to set foot on the moon when we return in the coming years with Artemis 3 being the first crewed landing (scheduled for launch in 2027 - definitely make sure you and your daughter tune in for that one: it will be historic).

I would, very loudly, counter your statement that KSP1 suggests space is exclusively for men. I would also maintain that notion, even louder, for KSP2. "The Kerbal Effect" would like a word with you...

They were initially just meant to be the little green aliens with a love of space flight and explosions with potentially no self-preservation instinct. They very obviously have a less risk adverse culture, at the very least.

I didn't play KSP1 for the gender of the Kerbals, I was - and still am - here for space flight. Since the introduction of Valentina Kerman (so named due to the first female human in space being Valentina Tereshkova), female Kerbals are common (maybe not 50/50 but definitely more than 33%) in the roster of Kerbal recruits available at the Astronaut Complex at the KSC. Their stats (Courage and Stupidity, regardless of archetype) are applied at random and in my Space Agency, it's a meritocracy - the more courageous and less stupid you are, you're hired.

There are female Kerbals in KSP2 already - you need only pay attention to the art style of the Kerbal portraits. At the moment, outside of aesthetics, gender has no bearing on capability as Kerbal XP is not yet implemented (if it's even going to be). And even in KSP1, Kerbal gender has no bearing on how "good" a Kerbal is. It's easier to see in the EA Release Trailer, highly recommend watching 5, 6 or 7...maybe even 8 times. Song is catchy...

Basically, if they have eyebrows and a more rounded jawline - they're female Kerbals. Not as sure on the hair department, however the female pilot in the trailer (who I assume is Valentina - in which case, where are Jeb, Bob and Bill? If not, who is she? And who are the scientists?) has a shorter hairstyle (at the back) with a fringe, while the female scientist has pig tails. The male scientist, by comparison, has no eyebrows, a squarer jaw and what I can only describe as a 'Rick Astley' hairstyle (though the 'traditional' Kerbal Widow's peak is also an apparent male Kerbal favourite). Having said that, I'm sure someone will correct me if I've assumed something I shouldn't have - but I feel that's the aesthetic the art team were going for.

Outside of gender symbology, I'm not sure how one would be able to specifically depict a non-binary Kerbal.

[Tw1]

35 minutes ago, Cailean_556 said:

Outside of gender symbology, I'm not sure how one would be able to specifically depict a non-binary Kerbal.

There isn't really one non-binary look or set of features, so as long as none of them explicitly were saying they're gendered either way, any of them could be.

But we've had female kerbals for years. Here's some old photos of mine with helmets off so you can clearly see faces/

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Tw1

[Cailean_556]

30 minutes ago, Tw1 said:

There isn't really one non-binary look or set of features, so as long as none of them explicitly were saying they're gendered either way, any of them could be. 

Yeah, that was my point.

And I know we've had female Kerbals for years (2015 they were added, I'm pretty sure) - my astronaut roster in my current save is 2/3 females.  

Edited March 1, 2023 by Cailean_556

[msaspence]

20 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

All that means is that she didn't find a Kerbal that fit her fashion preferences. If you say the game is presenting men as the astronauts and engineers, when half the Kerbals dress androgynous and there's no labels for gender at all, all that means is that you imposed your image or idea of a default gender onto them.

I am 100% imposing gender on them; that is what happens in most cases in the real world. Sometimes people are explicit about their gender, but in most situations, gender is assumed from social and cultural cues, including fashion. KSP doesn't exist in a vacuum; whilst none of the Kerbals are labeled explicitly as male or female, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine which is which for most of them. And in KSP2 there are very few female presenting Kerbals. We can't fix problems in representation by pretending that "gender doesn't exist" and that all these roughly androgynous but fairly masculine Kerbals can represent everybody. 
 

Quote

Need I remind the OP that...

Nope, I'm aware. And I know the Kerbal effect, which is why this issue is so important.  I'm glad your KSP1 roaster is two-thirds female; that's awesome for KSP1. However, this is a KSP2 suggestions forum and our KSP2 roaster has been, at best, 10% female, which is the point that I'm making. Why has KSP regressed on this? What possible reason do they have for tweaking the algorithm on the ratio? I'm not suggesting some conspiracy at the developers; I'm sure it is an oversight. But it seems like one that is easy to fix.

You can argue the semantics of "gender" and the technicalities that the Kerbals don't have an explicitly assigned gender. But none of that changes the fact that my little one looked at the list of Kerbals, and she concluded that female Kerbals can't be Kerbonauts. Obviously, this is anecdotal, and I care more because it was my kid, but I'd be very surprised if she were the only one that landed here. 

I understand the devs have a long list of more important problems to fix right now. But to my 5-year-old, this is more important than the terrible maneuver nodes or the Kraken consuming our rocket (which, with the attached mythos of "the Kraken" seems more of a feature than a bug as far as she is concerned). I'm not trying to create moral outrage about this or suggesting I'd boycott the game because of it*, I'm simply forwarding feedback in the suggestions forum. If this game lasts as long and has as much of a profound impact as the first one, the views of her demographic are not only valid but important. And I'd wager rarely heard on feedback channels.

*My current workaround is intentionally launching male Kerbals to their deaths until the generated roaster is more representative. I'm undecided as to whether this is brutal or an appropriately Kerbal solution to the problem.

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by msaspence

[msaspence]

[Snip]

And it's a whole other thing to jump from that to "the general lack of feminine presenting Kerbals is explained by the some of the masculine-presenting Kerbal's possibly being female".

I just don't understand why it's so important to you not to have a few more feminine Kerbals? Like how does that erode your (or anyone else's) enjoyment of the game? A change that would probably just mean changing a magic number or configuration constant somewhere. What are the possible downsides to that?

 

[Bej Kerman]

Just now, msaspence said:

I just don't understand why it's so important to you not to have a few more feminine Kerbals?

Because I'm insulted by the idea I and other women can only be represented if the kerbonauts representing us are wearing eyeliner.

The bottom line is this: The things she claims are men don't have to be men just because they don't wear what she's been taught is feminine attire. Ask your daughter if she remembers when she asked "why there are no female Kerbonauts?" and tell her that women don't need to look feminine if they don't want.

[Tw1]

 

In a random sample of 21, i only got 3 female kerbals. There may be something going wrong with the generator here.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Tw1

[GregA]

3 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Ask your daughter if she remembers when she asked "why there are no female Kerbonauts?" and tell her that women don't need to look feminine if they don't want.

You could tell your daughter that Gwynne Shotwell is CEO of the biggest most powerful space services company in the history of the world as a consolation for there not being enough androgenous female Kerbals in the game.  Space services is about the best of the best of the best, the highest qualified, and most capable people in the world.  That means that women in the Space Services Business are going to look and dress the part.  No half assing it here.  The same is true for men in the space services business, don't see a lot of potato shaped men in the space services business.  Only the most motivated and capable individuals allowed.  That means women in space services are going to put on some eyeliner, and get their hair done.

[Starhawk]

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