Sensationalist news on plastiglomerates

[lajoswinkler]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/terrifying-plastic-rocks-found-remote-brazilian-island-rcna75217

Allegedly, this has been discovered in 2006, but I clearly remember seeing such rocks on shores of Adriatic in middle of 1990s and I'm pretty sure they have been around for quite some time. It doesn't take a long time to form in conditions of hard water and broken karst.

All in all, it is a sad lithospheric reminder of anthropocene.

[K^2]

It will lose hydrogen over time, turning into a carbon deposit. Hundreds of millions years from now, cephalopod geologists will wonder why there were two carboniferous periods in Earth's history.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

1 minute ago, K^2 said:

It will lose hydrogen over time, turning into a carbon deposit. Hundreds of millions years from now, cephalopod geologists will wonder why there were two carboniferous periods in Earth's history.

Laughing - b/c I never thought about it.  So, is there a chance it will turn into more coal?  Or is the chemical properties of all of our plastics such that it would merely revert to oil?

(Basing the question on vague memories of reading that there was a plant-mass cycle from bog/peat to coal to oil based on time and pressure.  Don't know if those are indeed required steps or not... just something I remember reading)

[steve9728]

23 minutes ago, K^2 said:

It will lose hydrogen over time, turning into a carbon deposit. Hundreds of millions years from now, cephalopod geologists will wonder why there were two carboniferous periods in Earth's history.

Maybe they will call this era "Plasticous"!

[kerbiloid]

There is a lot of organic minerals, such as amber, coals, oil.

One more doesn't change anything.

[StrandedonEarth]

As the prophet had spoken !

Edited March 18, 2023 by StrandedonEarth

[lajoswinkler]

14 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Laughing - b/c I never thought about it.  So, is there a chance it will turn into more coal?  Or is the chemical properties of all of our plastics such that it would merely revert to oil?

(Basing the question on vague memories of reading that there was a plant-mass cycle from bog/peat to coal to oil based on time and pressure.  Don't know if those are indeed required steps or not... just something I remember reading)

Crude oil comes from marine plankton and coal comes from plants on land (bogs and whatnot).  Considering how carbon-dense plastic polymers are, I can see how it could turn to some form of coal with hydrogen permeating pores, all perhaps enveloped in thick crusts of chlorides (from PVC). It's an interesting thought experiment that makes me squeamish because it reminds me of how ephemeral we are.

5 hours ago, StrandedonEarth said:

As the prophet had spoken !

PLASTIC!

[kerbiloid]

17 minutes ago, lajoswinkler said:

Crude oil comes from marine plankton and coal comes from plants on land (bogs and whatnot). 

In biogenic theory.

In the abiotic theory it's synthesized underground from methane of inorganic origin (decomposition of carbonates and hydrates).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenic_petroleum_origin

20 minutes ago, lajoswinkler said:

I can see how it could turn to some form of coal

Coal is formed from cellulose, and it follows aromatic hydrocarbones (terpentine, coal oil) production, not parafines.

[magnemoe]

30 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

In biogenic theory.

In the abiotic theory it's synthesized underground from methane of inorganic origin (decomposition of carbonates and hydrates).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenic_petroleum_origin

Coal is formed from cellulose, and it follows aromatic hydrocarbones (terpentine, coal oil) production, not parafines.

I could see some natural gas having an inorganic origin,  some natural gas deposits also has high helium levels and the helium is come from deeper down.  Helium has an easier time diffusing trough rock than methane and gas tend to come together with oil, even if known as a gas field you has some oil but it might be hard to get that oil out and much more skeptical this being non biological.
Know it has been some searches assuming non biological origin but don't think it has been much success. 

Coal is simpler, as in back during the carboniferous period who was hot and had 8 time current co2 level, oxygen level was also higher.
We got wood for the first time  but no efficient way of breaking wood down so it piled up and got buried, this turned int coal.  It was the plastic of that age, yes some was broken down but not logs.
Yes you get coal deposits later even today, mostly from bogs. But not sure how much coal that is compared to the carboniferous one. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carboniferous

[lajoswinkler]

3 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

In biogenic theory.

In the abiotic theory it's synthesized underground from methane of inorganic origin (decomposition of carbonates and hydrates).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenic_petroleum_origin

Coal is formed from cellulose, and it follows aromatic hydrocarbones (terpentine, coal oil) production, not parafines.

It's not a theory, but a hypothesis and it's disproven, nowdays circling pseudoscientific and contrarian areas of Internet obsessed with Russia. Crude oil has molecules that have biochemical origin, such as those from decomposition of chlorophyl, a telltale sign of photosynthetic metabolism.

Methane and other lowest hydrocarbons could be partially abiogenic in origin, but crude oil is no doubt biogenic.

As for the coal, I said some form of coal. If polyethene and polyvinyl-chloride get exposed to high temperatures in absence of oxidizers, carbon forms. Conditions would have to be more extreme since reactivity is lower, but it would have to be the end product.

[darthgently]

I'm guessing that plastics will be broken down by bacteria long before geology gets a chance to work on it much.  A styrofoam eating bacteria has already emerged in the wild.  Evolution is amazingly fast at that scale 

[FleshJeb]

1 hour ago, lajoswinkler said:

It's not a theory, but a hypothesis and it's disproven, nowdays circling pseudoscientific and contrarian areas of Internet obsessed with Russia. Crude oil has molecules that have biochemical origin, such as those from decomposition of chlorophyl, a telltale sign of photosynthetic metabolism.

When I looked into it a few years ago, my understanding was that it was disinformation proposed by the multinational oil companies to get people to ignore Peak Oil, so that they could take advantage of the inevitable economic crisis that would arise by not preparing to transition to different energy sources.

[darthgently]

14 minutes ago, FleshJeb said:

When I looked into it a few years ago, my understanding was that it was disinformation proposed by the multinational oil companies to get people to ignore Peak Oil, so that they could take advantage of the inevitable economic crisis that would arise by not preparing to transition to different energy sources.

No, it goes way, way back to cold war USSR.  

Edited March 19, 2023 by darthgently

[kerbiloid]

5 hours ago, lajoswinkler said:

It's not a theory, but a hypothesis and it's disproven, nowdays circling pseudoscientific and contrarian areas of Internet obsessed with Russia.

It's a full-featured theory, it's been never disproved, just postponed, because at the moment there is no difference, as it's enough oil close to the surface, and the theory predicts greater oil deposits  at several kilometers depth. Some of them have been found long ago, but currently technically unavailable. And it has been developed long before an internet had appeared.

Of course, nobody tells you to get obsessed with it, your may use biogenic oil if you have.

 

5 hours ago, lajoswinkler said:

Methane and other lowest hydrocarbons could be partially abiogenic in origin, but crude oil is no doubt biogenic.

8 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Know it has been some searches assuming non biological origin but don't think it has been much success. 

At proper conditions (temperature, pressure) methane turns into heavy hydrocarbons (like in the well-known and used Fischer-Tropsch process). Heavy fractions of them are called "oil".

While the cellulose decomposition brings simpler hydrocarbones, and finally pure graphite.
If the oil is from plants, why does the coal contain no oil? It contains aromatics, but no ready-to-use gasoline or kerosene.

***

Btw the abiogenic (or abiotic) theory should predict oil deposits on other celestial bodies with methane and high gravity.
Mars and Moon have methane (at least as clathrates), so according to this theory there can be oil.
As both are in vacuum, the lightweight fractions obviously have evaporated, so it would be bituminous sands.

Edited March 19, 2023 by kerbiloid