HarvesteR shares his thoughts on KSP2

[moeggz]

 

 

[Superfluous J]

NGL I was hoping for some text here.

[moeggz]

@Superfluous J

 I will get claims that I’m lying if I give any text other than a word for word transcript.

But the gist is he still hasn’t been contacted by the KSP2 devs and “doesn’t know any better than us” (paraphrased watch the 2 minute clip for exact wording) if it will become the game promised. 
 

More telling to me was what he didn’t say and the pauses before he answered the questions. 
 

Also Kitbash looks fun.

 

edit: also the link is directly to the interview on KSP2, no need to scroll through video to find it.

Edited July 25, 2023 by moeggz
Added the tag

[RocketRockington]

This is how a developer who's awkwardly struggling to say something nice while also being totally honest sounds, in transparent and unscripted human statements.   Such a breath of fresh air.

I absolutely love how he then moves on to talk about how there's no wobbliness in his current game, because even he knows that was jank to be learned from and moved past.

Edited July 25, 2023 by RocketRockington

[Kerbart]

7 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

NGL I was hoping for some text here.

“If you have nothing nice to say, don’t say anything at all.” NGL I think this is a very clear case of that. Harvester sounds pretty desperate to change the subject.

[RocketRockington]

People who only listen to the part that involves KSP2 should be aware that HarvestR is much more eloquent in other parts of the video, not a ton of pauses and tripping over his words and repeating himself.  it's not because English is his 2nd language, it's because he's genuinely struggling to say anything about KSP2 that won't make him sound like a hater despite what he's clearly thinking.

[MechBFP]

50 minutes ago, RocketRockington said:

People who only listen to the part that involves KSP2 should be aware that HarvestR is much more eloquent in other parts of the video, not a ton of pauses and tripping over his words and repeating himself.  it's not because English is his 2nd language, it's because he's genuinely struggling to say anything about KSP2 that won't make him sound like a hater despite what he's clearly thinking.

Neat fan fiction.

[moeggz]

27 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

Neat fan fiction.

His criticism of the intentional decision to keep wobbly rockets could not have been more clear. 
 

Speaking of, as someone who understands the hesitation of some in the community for Juno like rigidness, Kitbash’s way of keeping a rigid body until internal physics break the craft into pieces would work perfect in KSP. 
 

You still have the engineering challenge and visual feedback of a poorly designed rocket but it would both be more realistic and less frustrating. 
 

And, as he noted, way easier on processing power with larger part number vessels with the ability to turn it off when not needed (not said by him as he was discussing with the context of Kitbash, but for instance in large interstellar vessels.)

Edited July 25, 2023 by moeggz
Spelling

[MechBFP]

54 minutes ago, moeggz said:

His criticism of the intentional decision to keep wobbly rockets could not have been more clear. 

It actually could have been much clearer, but generally people who actually know what they are talking about (which is quite obviously the case here) tend to also know better than to talk excrements about other peoples work that they know nothing about. 

[razark]

Frankly, HarvesteR's view on the development of KSP2 is worth as much as anyone else that's not actually involved in the active development of KSP2.

 

I don't ask Henry Ford what he thinks of the cars being produced today, nor do I care for the opinion of Steve Jobs on the current state of Apple products.  I asked a shuttle engineer about the development of the current generation of space vehicles, and he said "I'm retired.  I don't know anything about those."

[moeggz]

@razark

I see where you are coming from, but seeing how Kitbash has solved (to me from the video) the “wobble” problem as well as (to me) made a much smoother procedural wing  creation UI I think his expertise is still relevant.

[moeggz]

57 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

It actually could have been much clearer, but generally people who actually know what they are talking about (which is quite obviously the case here) tend to also know better than to talk excrements about other peoples work that they know nothing about. 

@MechBFP

If the lines between the following dots aren’t apparent to you we must agree to disagree.

1. He doesn’t really praise the game at all, except for that it looks pretty.

2. He reaffirms that no one has reached out to him about KSP2.

3. After that, he spends a good minute or so discussing how Kitbash “has full solid physics now.” Explaining how it makes for smoother gameplay and easier computation while still being able to simulate internal stresses that can break vehicles. He then specifically mentions that he has wanted to implement this since the KSP days but now has the chance and how it will allow 1,000 part vessels from two different players to interact in multiplayer.
 

I see that as a commentary on KSP2. You are not forced to see it the same way as me, and are allowed to disagree with me if you see it differently. I just ask that you please do so without being being condescending or sarcastic.

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by moeggz

[MechBFP]

2 minutes ago, moeggz said:

1. He doesn’t really praise the game at all, except for that it looks pretty.

2. He reaffirms that no one has reached out to him about KSP2.

3. After that, he spends a good minute or so discussing how Kitbash “has full solid physics now.” Explaining how it makes for smoother gameplay and easier computation while still being able to simulate internal stresses that can break vehicles. He then specifically mentions that he has wanted to implement this since the KSP days but now has the chance and how it will allow 1,000 part vessels from two different players to interact in multiplayer.

 

1) So do most of us.

2) How is this relevant to the conversation?

3) A developer talking about the benefits of their own game when they have essentially free advertising? Ya, can't possibly think of any reason why they would be doing that other than for a reason to be secretly snarky about KSP2.

[harveylates]

I HOPE HIS NEW GAME GOES WELL AND ITS AS GOOD AS KSP 

[moeggz]

@MechBFP

#2 is (to me) “I’m not involved in any way, but here (#3) is how I have solved the exact same problems in a very different way. Or showing how he disagrees with the decision to keep wobble  because in his game he specifically took it out.

Yes he is praising his game to advertise it by pointing out specifically what his game can do much better than the previous topic of conversation KSP2.

But hey I politely asked for you to not be sarcastic and you had to end on an eye roll so I don’t think this discussion will be beneficial anymore. But I wanted to answer your last question with my honest view.

[RocketRockington]

@moeggzYou can't expect the KSP2 apologists to be polite when they don't face nearly the sort of scrutiny that the 'haters' do from the powers that be - and they know being rude and getting people to fight in threads they don't like gives those same powers the excuse they're looking for to lock them.  Win-win from their perspective, they get to trash talk AND they get to silence people.

[The Aziz]

Lots of professional voice analysis here

[moeggz]

1 minute ago, The Aziz said:

Lots of professional voice analysis here

Hey my OP was the direct source, no interpretation. After someone asked I shared my view. You are welcome to a different one. I would be interested in someone explaining how they think that interview shows that HarvesteR has a positive view of KSP2.

 

I can see indifference, but am interested in the reasoning behind it being evidence that he has a positive view.

[Superfluous J]

4 hours ago, moeggz said:

His criticism of the intentional decision to keep wobbly rockets could not have been more clear. 

You know HarvesteR was the main reason KSP1 didn't get delta v readouts until long after release?

They ruined the "magic," he said at the time.

6 hours ago, moeggz said:

I will get claims that I’m lying if I give any text other than a word for word transcript.

But the gist is he still hasn’t been contacted by the KSP2 devs and “doesn’t know any better than us” (paraphrased watch the 2 minute clip for exact wording) if it will become the game promised. 

Thank you for taking the risk of being lambasted for describing the video.

Also, sorry that my asking you to describe the video was immediately met by people lambasting you for describing the video.

[RocketRockington]

6 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

You know HarvesteR was the main reason KSP1 didn't get delta v readouts until long after release?

They ruined the "magic," he said at the time.

What's your point, w/respect to moeggz statement?  That HarvestR made one bad call, therefore all his opinions should never be listened to?    I mean, he did only create the game that sold 5 million units and sparked many people to go into aerospace careers, which gets used to teach orbital mechanics and his characters went up to space on a legit space capsule.   KSP2 wouldn't exist without him.  But sure, go ahead and try to discredit him.  Maybe we can stack up the current IG leadership's record of success vs that?  

And also, maybe if you asked him now, he'd change his mind about dV.  Because he clearly can learn with time.

Edited July 25, 2023 by RocketRockington

[Lyneira]

Thank you for the link, and your interpretation. (although I thought the video was interesting enough to watch in its entirety anyway) I could tell he was struggling to find words to describe how he felt about the game. The big takeaway for me from that segment was the fact that Kit Bash uses  a model with only a single rigid body for a vessel instead of one per part. From what he said:

• It uses an internal model to compute stresses between parts to determine when things should break.
• It is performant and should allow multiple 1000-part craft to participate in multiplayer battles
• It is something he had the chance to implement in his new game after leaving KSP. Which suggests that implementing it within KSP was not really in the cards.

The gameplay footage demonstrates that this implementation works and things break off with no noticable framerate hits when gun shots or obstacles are hit. During the car battle segment, there was a tendency for car-car collisions to cause both cars to break up into lots of little pieces. I'm sure the level of "disintegrate into thousand pieces" from collisions could be tweaked, though maybe this is a bit of kraken showing through here as well.

[regex]

13 hours ago, moeggz said:

But the gist is he still hasn’t been contacted by the KSP2 devs and “doesn’t know any better than us” (paraphrased watch the 2 minute clip for exact wording) if it will become the game promised.

Why should we expect that the KSP2 team contact HarvesteR for literally any reason? He's not on the team, he's not at the company, he's doing something entirely different with his life, and quite frankly his input doesn't really mean anything for the game.

Good luck to him and his new game, I hope they do well, but I literally don't care what he has to say about KSP2.

[moeggz]

1 hour ago, regex said:

Why should we expect that the KSP2 team contact HarvesteR for literally any reason? He's not on the team, he's not at the company, he's doing something entirely different with his life, and quite frankly his input doesn't really mean anything for the game.

Good luck to him and his new game, I hope they do well, but I literally don't care what he has to say about KSP2.

If the game was without significant bugs and progressing down the roadmap I can agree with this view. 
But it’s not. It’s both progressing at a snail’s pace and still faces major game breaking bugs. But if still KSP2 was built from entirely new code as originally implied I could see your point as well. That’s also not the case they have admitted (see PQS+) using parts of old code. 
I don’t think it’s that ridiculous to have consulted him at least once on his experience with making the first game a playable game. 
And if he was currently an Apple farmer then sure his viewpoint is meaningless. But he’s currently programming a game that faces very similar challenges as KSP2, and in my opinion, has found a far better solution to the those challenges. That I think is worth a consultation call.

1 hour ago, Lyneira said:

It is something he had the chance to implement in his new game after leaving KSP. Which suggests that implementing it within KSP was not really in the cards

Agreed. At that point KSP was too far along for such a change. However, it would seem that, as the physics are similar enough, it’s at least possible such a system could be implemented in KSP2. The player base seems pretty united against wobbly rockets above a minute wobble. But there are some trepidations at that taking away from the engineering and visual feedback. This seems to solve those problems to me.

[regex]

Just now, moeggz said:

I don’t think it’s that ridiculous to have consulted him at least once on his experience with making the first game a playable game.

Puhleeeeze... That's the most ridiculous thing I've read all day, on several levels. Unfortunately it just outlines how little discussion there is to be had with you here because you consider Intercept, a pretty big team, to be so incompetent they can't figure this out on their own, to their own satisfaction.

[Scarecrow71]

So I watched the 2 minute section (or however long it was) in the video...and I'm not sure what to make of it.  HarvesteR sounds like someone who created something and then left, and now doesn't know if he has an opinion or not about what is happening to the sequel.  I've been pretty outspoken about what I think of KSP2, but I don't get the feeling from that 2 minute section that HarvesteR is disappointed or at a loss of what to say.  Then again, none of us are inside his mind, so unless he comes out directly and says what he's thinking, this is all merely speculation.

And now I gotta go check out Kitbash and see what that's all about.