Devs: take Discord with a grain of salt

[Pthigrivi]

This is gonna be controversial. I know. This forum is on the archaic 'internet' and understandably is populated by 40+ grumps and honestly only like 30-50 people on a regular basis. We are not representative of the current or future player base. Thats all 100% true. But from time to time I do check in to the much more popular discord server and I can honestly say I've seen almost no substantive conversations happen there for over a year. Yeah, they're kids. They're having fun and chatting about what they're doing in the moment and digressing into pretty apparent observations about game bugs, things that are cool, whatever. But the conversation is generally millimeter shallow and never really approaches centimeter depth. I understand you have to take in broad based data, but if this data has no depth or insight on actual game mechanics or broader strategy  it might not have much actionable value. Just a tossing in a grain of salt. 

And also, don't just listen to us either! Definitely balance your view. We're nearly to a person 'fogies' and we have all the wrong built-in biases about change and old-school expectations. To our credit though the discourse that happens on this board is at least interesting because it's a kind of alchemy of ideas among folks who have played this game for a LONG time and understand its deeper mysteries, the mod-space history, and what the opportunities and pitfalls are.  We might be old but I hope at least some of this in-depth discussion on the philosophy and fundamentals of this kind of game has some value.

Edited January 8 by Pthigrivi

[Bej Kerman]

4 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

We are not representative of the current or future player base

Of course. They'd rather spill important information in a group chat where it's going to be buried within minutes by inane chatter.

[Pthigrivi]

16 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Of course. They'd rather spill important information in a group chat where it's going to be buried within minutes by inane chatter.

I mean, we'll bury that same information within a day or two with slightly less inane chatter. Im not too stressed about where new information is dropped. I just think these conversations we're all having here are probably valuable even if we're off our rockers and come to the wrong conclusions. Folks are looking pretty deep at UI and bugs and more fundamental structural improvements for FS and I just hope that doesn't all get overlooked purely on the basis of daily viewership. 

[LunarMetis]

50 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

But the conversation is generally millimeter shallow and never really approaches centimeter depth.

I think it has to do with huge Discord servers in general not being a great environment to have nuanced conversations. It's not impossible to have them, but they're extremely fast-paced to the point where it's just a constant stream of people talking, and conversations can change directions at any whim. The forums can be like that too, but it's at least pretty organized streams for the most part, and there's much more room to have in-depth conversations.

Edited January 8 by LunarMetis
cut down some wordiness

[Bej Kerman]

3 minutes ago, LunarMetis said:

I think it has to do with huge Discord servers in general not being a great environment to have nuanced conversations. It's not impossible to have them, but they're extremely fast-paced to the point where it's just a constant stream of people talking, and conversations can change directions at any whim. The forums can be like that too, but it's at least pretty organized streams for the most part, and there's much more room to have in-depth conversations.

Yes. Plus specific conversations end up in clearly-marked threads rather than bubbling away into tens of thousands of pages of chat history.

[Pthigrivi]

32 minutes ago, LunarMetis said:

I think it has to do with huge Discord servers in general not being a great environment to have nuanced conversations. It's not impossible to have them, but they're extremely fast-paced to the point where it's just a constant stream of people talking, and conversations can change directions at any whim. The forums can be like that too, but it's at least pretty organized streams for the most part, and there's much more room to have in-depth conversations.

Yeah that’s important too. Its not just generational. Its also a structural question. 

[Kerbart]

I would assume that the devs don't make decisions on a single statement, but do want to see depth to it. If that depth comes from a discord discussion, they'll take it; if it comes from here, they'll take it.

Random example: font colors. What will be ignored is "the vessel name is in an ugly color. Change it!" On the other hand "the vessel name is displayed in neatly the same color as the box it is in, the lack of contrast makes it impossible to read" will likely result in action.

In the same way, a statement regarding game mechanics like (and I'm making this up)  "Science is pretty much stupid, just get rid of it" is equally opinionated and lacks substance. I do think that the fast paced nature of discord will result in a few responses—either in agreement or not—while such a subject on the forum will probably launch a discussion with lots of valid points on either side, perhaps going along for 8, 9, dare I say even 10 pages (as unlikely as that number sounds I have faith in my fellow forumites). I'm sure the dev team would do something with such a discussion.

In the end it's not the location but the content that gives weight to a discussion.

Now get off my lawn!

[The Aziz]

6 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

I mean, we'll bury that same information within a day or two with slightly less inane chatter.

I dunno. Valuable information often gets either it's own space (thread, dev log, whatever) or gets posted in relevant existing thread. Allowing for longer discussion on that topic.

On discord though... It may or may not appear on forum widget because I've seen the thing not catching everything, or it has to be dug out by users, otherwise it's gone.

Trouble is, people over there will ask random question and sometimes get an answer from a dev. Here, a dev comment is a rarity, and again, may happen up to two times only in related threads, the rest of the forums with valid questions are left only with speculations. I'm not saying they should be answering to most or all of them but there were for sure discussions here on the same or similar topics that never got an answer - but a question on discord pretty much about the same thing did.

Now, about feedback, doesn't matter where, as long it's constructive. (The UX megathread comes to mind, some good points there, got an answer). On the other hand, we didn't get anything on recent discussion about the atmosphere (I'm still convinced upper atmo should cause heating, other people say otherwise, and we're at an impas because there's no straight answer, and I'm sure devs know what's a bug and what isn't)

[Mickel]

35 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

(I'm still convinced upper atmo should cause heating, other people say otherwise, and we're at an impas because there's no straight answer, and I'm sure devs know what's a bug and what isn't)

There is a third option.  It was a bug, then you suggested that maybe it's not.  Then someone goes and asks IG's atmospheric tech consultant whether it's plausible.  They confirm your thoughts.  Then it gets massaged into a feature, complete with its own biome and science!  And we all get a better representation of getting into space.

Edited January 8 by Mickel

[PDCWolf]

9 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

 But from time to time I do check in to the much more popular discord server and I can honestly say I've seen almost no substantive conversations happen there for over a year.

Gotta have more weight now that it's not a "hater" saying it.

The discord is barely more than an overgrown hype squad, ready to commit abuse and worse against anyone who disagrees.

E: Forgot to mention, they also share posts from here and from Reddit with each other to brigade and downvote, but I haven't seen Dakota complain about that one.

Edited January 8 by PDCWolf

[MechBFP]

3 hours ago, The Aziz said:

On the other hand, we didn't get anything on recent discussion about the atmosphere (I'm still convinced upper atmo should cause heating, other people say otherwise, and we're at an impas because there's no straight answer, and I'm sure devs know what's a bug and what isn't)

Check out the latest kerb dated 12/22 regarding that.  Just before the current top issues are listed.

 

Edited January 8 by MechBFP

[The Aziz]

I forgot about that.

 

[Pthigrivi]

47 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

The discord is barely more than an overgrown hype squad, ready to commit abuse and worse against anyone who disagrees.

I don’t mean against the folks there. Its the nature of the format, basically just a chatroom. And Im sure the devs do get a lot of data from watching folks interact and comment on the game in real time. I just think an over reliance on it might miss a lot finer points and more thoughtful feedback. 

3 hours ago, The Aziz said:

Now, about feedback, doesn't matter where, as long it's constructive. (The UX megathread comes to mind, some good points there, got an answer). On the other hand, we didn't get anything on recent discussion about the atmosphere (I'm still convinced upper atmo should cause heating, other people say otherwise, and we're at an impas because there's no straight answer, and I'm sure devs know what's a bug and what isn't)

And also a lot of what happens here is just semantic squabbling and circular arguments that go on page after page. But I think even in the case of the atmo thread there’s disagreement there and that in itself is interesting. I feel like I learned something even if Im not sure exactly what the right answer is beyond fixing some actual bugs. 

[The Aziz]

24 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

Check out the latest kerb dated 12/22 regarding that.  Just before the current top issues are listed.

 

Actually, that still doesn't quite do it - this was a response to a bug report, not related discussions (that particular one probably started after KERB but point stands for any other)

[regex]

There's some serious "kids these days" energy in this thread. I thought better of these forums (actually I didn't, based on the reasons I originally left, but I thought it had gotten better).

[Pthigrivi]

Haha well thats true. 

[Spicat]

In depth conversation do happen on the discord, quite often. However, due to the nature of direct messages, you either have to be there at the right time or engage a conversation about a subject yourself.

Besides, I hear quite often that Dakota take feedback from all platforms: Forums, Discord, Reddit, Steam, Twitter, Youtube, Instagram, Tiktok, Threads and even Facebook (I probably forgot other platform)

But ultimately the forums are the best place for long form feedbacks, and even on the discord there is a meme to redirect people to the forums when they have an idea that might be interesting (or a bug to report).

[PDCWolf]

1 hour ago, regex said:

There's some serious "kids these days" energy in this thread. I thought better of these forums (actually I didn't, based on the reasons I originally left, but I thought it had gotten better).

You draw parallels to that and not to the community shielding the devs from all criticism and steering them into a bland game back during KSP1?

[regex]

27 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

You draw parallels to that and not to the community shielding the devs from all criticism and steering them into a bland game back during KSP1?

What the hell are you talking about? Squad willingly steered their ship directly into a bland game. If anything they paid more attention to Reddit than these forums, if they were actually to be believed, due to a greater population of feedback.

[PDCWolf]

2 minutes ago, regex said:

What the hell are you talking about? Squad willingly steered their ship directly into a bland game. If anything they paid more attention to Reddit than these forums, if they were actually to be believed, due to a greater population of feedback.

It's like we spent our time at two different communities entirely. Whenever anything bad was said about the game this forum got up in arms, which is funny because the posts are still there. Only very obvious mistakes had people agreeing, like the barn.

[regex]

Just now, PDCWolf said:

like the barn.

Even the barn had its defenders. It's been pretty clear to me since that any dev team should stick to their vision of the game they want to play rather than listen to the community on anything other than bugfixes.

[Periple]

LOL the problem with KSP2 is definitely that there hasn’t been enough people hating on it!

[Pthigrivi]

Well, upon reflection I think my observation that started this thread is kind of silly and bound to turn to arguments. Id be happy if the mods closed the thread. 

[PDCWolf]

2 hours ago, regex said:

Even the barn had its defenders. It's been pretty clear to me since that any dev team should stick to their vision of the game they want to play rather than listen to the community on anything other than bugfixes.

Oh for sure, not denying that, but if you looked at the forum as a whole, yeah, defend the devs was the clear behavior.

2 hours ago, Periple said:

LOL the problem with KSP2 is definitely that there hasn’t been enough people hating on it!

On the discord, which is the main focus of the op? definitely. Love how the awful stuff that went and still goes on in there gets ignored because haters were perceived as the problem.

Edited January 8 by PDCWolf

[regex]

9 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

Oh for sure, not denying that, but if you looked at the forum as a whole, yeah, defend the devs was the clear behavior.

And yet, again, according to Squad they gave far more weight to Reddit due to there being far more people there. Was Reddit defending the devs the clear behavior?