Lisias Posted November 7 Share Posted November 7 (edited) I thought it would be better to create a new thread for discussing this subject, so I'm moving the discussion from the original one. Before my turn, the following games were mentioned: SFS 1 (and 2) - Spaceflight Simulator 1 on Steam 2 on Steam - unreleased at this time. Simple Rockets (Juno 1) On Steam Juno (Simple Rockets 2) On Steam 5 hours ago, Kerbart said: The third one is Juno. Which is already on the market, but it is far more focused on tinkering and balancing numbers, which we hope KSA and SFS2 are not. Well... Since we are talking about similar games.... If you are on mobile, there's two little games from Nooleus that I like to play: Space Agency - a 2D game where you launch thingies into a 2D mapped solar system. Good sound effects, simple mechanics but fun if you need to burn time and you have your mobile with full battery. This game is pretty old, I was playing it way before even knowing KSP existed Something like SFS1, but for Android. And it ran pretty well on my Android TV device. Space Agency 2138 - a 3D successor for SA. Stylized graphics, somewhat kiddish but with a somewhat complex resources and economics engine. You need to acquire raw materials and then build your parts Still learning my way on it. Their business model will disgust some people (in game shop, with some "game accelerations" being paid, but I managed to finish SA(1) without buying anything but the extra parts for fun). SA on Google Play SA 2138 on Google Play Edited November 7 by Lisias Better phrasing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bej Kerman Posted November 7 Share Posted November 7 7 hours ago, Kerbart said: Their space center shows a striking resemblance with the KSP2 one. I doubt that's coincidental. It definitely isn't coincidental. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisias Posted November 27 Author Share Posted November 27 Just found this video.... Star Paws, this video is from early this year. Apparently the russians also won this space race! https://www.reddit.com/r/starpaws/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnemoe Posted November 30 Share Posted November 30 On 11/27/2024 at 2:33 PM, Lisias said: Just found this video.... Star Paws, this video is from early this year. Apparently the russians also won this space race! https://www.reddit.com/r/starpaws/ They are using an Soyuz style launch system, the center hold down clamps is on top of the side boosters This would be fine if they used side boosters even srb like Atlas but they had to standardize on number of srb used. Idea is smart, if you support the top of the boosters there rocket will face max-Q you can make the bottom part lighter of the expense of making the pad more complex. But this rocket looks like an falcon 9 and for it and other 2-3 stage rockets from electron to Saturn 5 and Starship, its pointless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisias Posted November 30 Author Share Posted November 30 1 hour ago, magnemoe said: They are using an Soyuz style launch system, the center hold down clamps is on top of the side boosters This would be fine if they used side boosters even srb like Atlas but they had to standardize on number of srb used. Idea is smart, if you support the top of the boosters there rocket will face max-Q you can make the bottom part lighter of the expense of making the pad more complex. But this rocket looks like an falcon 9 and for it and other 2-3 stage rockets from electron to Saturn 5 and Starship, its pointless. Not going to argue about it, but... Are you really sure you are barking on the right tree? Or attaching launch clamps on boosters: Or sitting the whole freaking rocket on their engines' bells: Neither KSP neither Star Paws are historically accurate simulators - heck, we are talking about space frogs and astrokittens being kicked into orbit. And, frankly, the Space Paws thingy is clearly trying to appeal to the graphical addicts niche of this already niche game market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisias Posted December 14 Author Share Posted December 14 (edited) moved from another thread. (about Star Paws) On 12/13/2024 at 1:23 PM, PDCWolf said: Unless you have some new info for me, I can't look at that game and not smell a UE5 asset flip. The store page only promises you'll be able to build rockets, fly to space, and multiplayer. Agreed, and believe it or not, it's the reason I'm prone to bet on this guys. On the bright side, they are not over-promising. They are telling in advance exactly what the game is going to be and it's feasible. And, speaking frankly, what was KSP¹ at the first releases? On the not that bright side (for me), it appears to be something like a "modelling dough" style of game, relying heavily on procedural parts like Juno. But with some characters that you may attach to - but, on my personal point of view, the cat's appearance is damn close to trigger an uncanny valley syndrome on me. As a matter of fact, it's also the reason I'm not a huge fan of too much realistic looks on KSP¹ itself. I don't like to crash my planes the way I do on a way that would look too realistic, I still get the chills when I remember this (I probably should replace the GPWS voices....) In a way or another, KSA at this point is still less than that. And I agree with you that I'm not jumping ship on anything but concrete products from this point. Additionally... We may not be their intended audience anyway. Given the current state of affairs in the World, they are probably focusing on VK Play for incoming. In a way or another, be by using Unreal, be by using a custom engine, both departed ways for good from the KSP¹ ecosystem. Migration will be somewhat painful for people that like mods. Edited December 15 by Lisias Posting when sleep deprived is rarely a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bej Kerman Posted December 14 Share Posted December 14 54 minutes ago, Lisias said: Agreed, and believe it or not, it's the reason I'm prone to bet on this guys. Expect Star Paws to cease development when the college/university students making it get their grades back. 57 minutes ago, Lisias said: on my personal point of view, the cat's appearance is damn close to trigger an uncanny valley syndrome on me. Very much typical when you make a cat model stand up and apply a dancing animation to its rig that was designed for human models. 58 minutes ago, Lisias said: In a way or another, KSA at this point is still less than that. Depends on your reference frame. You can also see that Star Paws is a jumble of royalty-free assets and code found lying besides the road, while KSA is making genuinely interesting technical advancements in how terrain is loaded and how physics between multiple vessels will be handled. Unlike KSP 2 and Star Paws, changes to the KSA repo are also readily available to read, which is a +1 on the transparency front. At this point, one only follows Star Paws for the sake of seeing something release, even if it's mediocre and does nothing unique on the technical or gameplay fronts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisias Posted December 14 Author Share Posted December 14 20 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said: Depends on your reference frame. Show me a game, or shut up. One of the worst things about KSP2 was how "influencers" helped to sell the hype about the game. Really, this only added gas to the fire. Hell, had they spent the money hiring good coders they could had a chance. Users don't want to see source code, this is something to be shown to code geeks. Users want to see a game running on their machines, at least most of them since KSP2's demise. 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IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER LIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE, ARISING FROM, OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN THE SOFTWARE. You see, Star Paws have more in common to KSP¹ than KSA at this point. Thanks for pinpointing one of the reasons. This insistence on how grandiose KSA is going to be is not different from the insistence on how grandiose KSP2 was going to be. Only madmen expect different outcomes by repeating the same actions. May I suggest to Rocketwerks to depart from the ways used by KSP2? It would help a lot to dissipate the distrust the user base has at this moment to anything remotely similar to KSP2 (in appearance and in M.O.). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bej Kerman Posted December 14 Share Posted December 14 37 minutes ago, Lisias said: Users don't want to see source code, this is something to be shown to code geeks. Users want to see a game running on their machines, at least most of them since KSP2's demise. A sizeable portion of those users are volatile, hypergolic lunatics. 17 minutes ago, Lisias said: This insistence on how grandiose KSA is going to be is not different from the insistence on how grandiose KSP2 was going to be. "[insisted] on how grandiose KSA is going to be" I never did that. I'm simply comparing the technical improvements KSA's BRUTAL framework has already made over KSP 1 re: multiple parallel physics simulations, impressive terrain rendering, done in the name of being more robust than KSP 1... to this Unity/UE5 asset flip shovelware you're hawking. I care more about what HarvesteR and other KSP veterans are doing with KSA/BRUTAL under a studio that has already established itself, than a simple KSP/JNO clone that's probably being made by college students and published under a name that probably won't publish anything again. I can practically imagine their project brief. "Pick a mascot that carries widespread appeal". The answer is obvious: cats! Right now, KSA has more in common with SpaceEngine or Celestia than KSP 1, the former examples being planetariums, the formermost being able to handle terrain on a human-ish scale and interstellar/intergalactic distances. I concur that Dean was probably a bit silly in dashing to the KSP subreddit to tag his currently WIP framework as a Kerbal killer. Right now, BRUTAL isn't meant to be a KSP competitor, it's meant to be a framework that's up to the task of doing things that upset Unity when applied to KSP-like gameplay, which matters to me more than this shovelware you're trying to drum up sales for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDCWolf Posted December 14 Share Posted December 14 10 hours ago, Lisias said: moved from another thread. (about Star Paws) Agreed, and believe it or not, it's the reason I'm prone to bet on this guys. On the bright side, they are not over-promising. They are telling in advance exactly what the game is going to be and it's feasible. And, speaking frankly, what was KSP¹ at the first releases? I don't want to criticize too much (and believe me I could write a hell of a corporate report) because even if I don't like what I see, it's still a dude making a game. But I can't wipe the smell of asset flip off my nose, and I don't mean asset flip as "poor guy can't model and downloaded some assets from the store", but asset flip as "wishlist conversion scam asset flip". And in case you aren't informed of those, that's what a lot of games you see advertised as "wishlist now" are: You show off this new, interesting concept of a game, or this re-take on something existing but better because 'reasons', and the only thing that ever faces the customer is media about it. They don't get to interact with the devs, they don't get a forum or a subreddit to discuss, the steam page is only TBD, the game is never talked about officially by whoever is making it, so promises are kept to a minimum. The only thing officially posted is just promotional material wherever you find the game. Then, months down the line, IF the game got enough wishlists, that's when the effort starts, and it's an effort measured against wishlists. There have been a ton of games made like this, and it's basically how PlayWay lives and eats. Of course pinning such a thing on what appears to be a single guy seems like a lot, specially because those things work better when you can shotgun quick prototypes of game ideas and make trailers with flipped assets to disperse around to see what sticks. But that's what I smell here. You go to steam and it's this very generic text about "you can launch rockets and execute maneuvers" being touted as "features" when it's the literally most basic gameplay loop. You go to twitter and it's clearly spammed videos reuploaded again and again on every follow-farm campaign, and so on. Then you look in detail and see that the trailer has a level of detail that not only can't the game reflect, but neither can the concepts. Then you actually get an explanation about it... So yeah, if the dev happens to read this, ignore all of it, call me dumb, and go on to prove me wrong. --------- Now this is very different to what I see from KSA. KSA hasn't shown gameplay yet, but it's shown what for me is the right thing to show if you're aspiring to be the next KSP: "Here's how we did this so we can provide moddability." "Here's how planetary detail is loaded on the fly without any hitching", "Here's a video of 150 elements being simulated by the integrator at the same time", and so on. They're showing me foundations, and for a game like this, foundation is everything. If StarPaws lags anything like FlyOut, or is as shallow as it is, I'm gonna do just like FlyOut and not get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bej Kerman Posted December 14 Share Posted December 14 32 minutes ago, PDCWolf said: I don't want to criticize too much (and believe me I could write a hell of a corporate report) because even if I don't like what I see, it's still a dude making a game. But I can't wipe the smell of asset flip off my nose, and I don't mean asset flip as "poor guy can't model and downloaded some assets from the store", but asset flip as "wishlist conversion scam asset flip". And in case you aren't informed of those, that's what a lot of games you see advertised as "wishlist now" are: You show off this new, interesting concept of a game, or this re-take on something existing but better because 'reasons', and the only thing that ever faces the customer is media about it. They don't get to interact with the devs, they don't get a forum or a subreddit to discuss, the steam page is only TBD, the game is never talked about officially by whoever is making it, so promises are kept to a minimum. The only thing officially posted is just promotional material wherever you find the game. Then, months down the line, IF the game got enough wishlists, that's when the effort starts, and it's an effort measured against wishlists. There have been a ton of games made like this, and it's basically how PlayWay lives and eats. Of course pinning such a thing on what appears to be a single guy seems like a lot, specially because those things work better when you can shotgun quick prototypes of game ideas and make trailers with flipped assets to disperse around to see what sticks. But that's what I smell here. You go to steam and it's this very generic text about "you can launch rockets and execute maneuvers" being touted as "features" when it's the literally most basic gameplay loop. You go to twitter and it's clearly spammed videos reuploaded again and again on every follow-farm campaign, and so on. Then you look in detail and see that the trailer has a level of detail that not only can't the game reflect, but neither can the concepts. Then you actually get an explanation about it... So yeah, if the dev happens to read this, ignore all of it, call me dumb, and go on to prove me wrong. --------- Now this is very different to what I see from KSA. KSA hasn't shown gameplay yet, but it's shown what for me is the right thing to show if you're aspiring to be the next KSP: "Here's how we did this so we can provide moddability." "Here's how planetary detail is loaded on the fly without any hitching", "Here's a video of 150 elements being simulated by the integrator at the same time", and so on. They're showing me foundations, and for a game like this, foundation is everything. If StarPaws lags anything like FlyOut, or is as shallow as it is, I'm gonna do just like FlyOut and not get it. The two saddest pieces of footage here have to be the capsule spinning on top of a rocket in a manner that defies basic rigid body physics and a cat shooting a gun that explodes Blender Default CubesTM everywhere. Can't really compare it to KSP, HarvesteR wasn't faffing round making Kerbals dance and cubes explode, and he got physics working convincingly well by 0.7.3 so Lisias comparing this glorified college project to KSP is somewhat lost on me. I honestly wouldn't put it beyond this development team (if it is a team) to be receiving a chunk of its creative input from ChatGPT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisias Posted December 14 Author Share Posted December 14 (edited) 3 hours ago, PDCWolf said: I don't want to criticize too much (and believe me I could write a hell of a corporate report) because even if I don't like what I see, it's still a dude making a game. As a matter of fact, I was wishing to have it criticized by you. You know how to criticize something, and are someone worthing of being listened. 3 hours ago, PDCWolf said: and I don't mean asset flip as "poor guy can't model and downloaded some assets from the store", but asset flip as "wishlist conversion scam asset flip". Hummm... I didn't thought of that. I did some research on them, found some tweets but - yellow flag enough - found that their subreddit was banned on reddit. 3 hours ago, PDCWolf said: You show off this new, interesting concept of a game, or this re-take on something existing but better because 'reasons', and the only thing that ever faces the customer is media about it. They don't get to interact with the devs, they don't get a forum or a subreddit to discuss, the steam page is only TBD, the game is never talked about officially by whoever is making it, so promises are kept to a minimum. The only thing officially posted is just promotional material wherever you find the game. Then, months down the line, IF the game got enough wishlists, that's when the effort starts, and it's an effort measured against wishlists. https://x.com/StarPaws_game Looking on the twits, some of them may corroborate your thesis, but others still gives "hope" of being also a simulator already in development. Perhaps something like Space Agency 2138 for Android? 2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said: Can't really compare it to KSP, HarvesteR wasn't faffing round making Kerbals dance and cubes explode, and he got physics working convincingly well by 0.7.3 so Lisias comparing this glorified college project to KSP is somewhat lost on me. Wow.. How a change... I stil remember your saying: Spoiler On 3/24/2023 at 5:21 PM, Bej Kerman said: Why is it odd? You're looking at the first patch of KSP 2. I think people's expectations need checking. People were happy to forgive Harvester for what came of KSP 1 despite single-person teams having achieved much better things. On 5/14/2024 at 8:58 PM, Bej Kerman said: Again, even Intercept identified these problems with HarvesteR's game despite their own issues and I don't feel like I have to cross my fingers for the Rocketwerkz team to avoid the wealth of problems KSP 1 had as they work on their competitor. Quote I'm fairly confident this is just wishful thinking to justify HarvesteR's ideas being mediocre. On 5/23/2024 at 2:43 PM, Bej Kerman said: HarvesteR, HarvesteR, 0 experience before KSP. I find interestingly amusing the change that happened between May 24 (your last post about @HarvesteR before the silence about him) and the first one: Spoiler On 5/24/2024 at 9:36 AM, Bej Kerman said: Let's run through the logic you're using: KSP 2 has flaws = let's lynch the developers KSP 1 has flaws = let's praise Harvester for all the mods he didn't make Suppose the library of mods for KSP 2 grows which is inevitable for any game, I don't suppose you'll do a heel-turn and decide that Intercept wasn't so evil actually. Or is Harvester the only developer in the world who is allowed to take credit for mods that fix his game. As I said, people are attached to an ideal fantasy where an underdog team does a better job than a studio they vilify, and aren't ready to face the reality that Harvester already had a shot at making a space game and made a dog's dinner out of it, and now he's busy on a pitifully unambitious game because it's a more realistic target for him than doing KSP 1 but better. Quote and your best bet if you really want to respect KSP 1's legacy is to just follow what Harvester is doing (I.E. Kitbash, the Rocketwerkz space game) It's almost as you were a different person on May 24. Or perhaps had a different employer? Glad to know that you are capable of listening to people, after all. 3 hours ago, PDCWolf said: Now this is very different to what I see from KSA. KSA hasn't shown gameplay yet, but it's shown what for me is the right thing to show if you're aspiring to be the next KSP: "Here's how we did this so we can provide moddability." "Here's how planetary detail is loaded on the fly without any hitching", "Here's a video of 150 elements being simulated by the integrator at the same time", and so on. They're showing me foundations, and for a game like this, foundation is everything. If StarPaws lags anything like FlyOut, or is as shallow as it is, I'm gonna do just like FlyOut and not get it. What I'm seeing from KSA, right now, it's a very capable and with a good reputation Studio hiring in mass the very people that turned KSP¹ into a mess and then gone to develop KSP2, that by itself turned into a worse mess. I get that KSP2 was a Management problem, and that should not fully reflect on the dev team. However, it's naïve to think that the brass is responsible for every single problem and mistake. I had seen bit rotting infesting KSP¹ guts since 2018, and how the rotten code was covered by a nice paintjob. I had seen a lot of good decisions and ideas being screwed up by terrible decision making and lack of judgment on the development side. And from people supporting them. Only madmen expect different results from the same people doing the same things. I do believe in Dean Hall intentions and competence. But such thrust is not shared into some people around him right now. I hope, I really hope to be right on the former, and to be utterly wrong on the later. But, right now, I'm choosing to hope for the best but expect the worst (are we going to drop the bomb or not?) - I'm not listening to words anymore, I want a game on my rig and then I will reevaluate. Spoiler Edited December 14 by Lisias (sigh) Moar tyops... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDCWolf Posted December 14 Share Posted December 14 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Lisias said: Hummm... I didn't thought of that. I did some research on them, found some tweets but - yellow flag enough - found that their subreddit was banned on reddit. https://x.com/StarPaws_game Looking on the twits, some of them may corroborate your thesis, but others still gives "hope" of being also a simulator already in development. Perhaps something like Space Agency 2138 for Android? The more I look at their twitter, the more I smell foul. Every reply they have is to a wishlistwednesday/trailertuesday/followfridays campaign ran by accounts that are completely unheard of, except for indie bandits. Every other reply that's not to a campaign like those is a tweet by itself of the same videos... and if you go back far enough, you'd just realize it's a rotation of the same videos over and over and over and over, showing little progress since september 20 when that account started posting. Edited December 14 by PDCWolf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bej Kerman Posted December 15 Share Posted December 15 9 hours ago, Lisias said: Glad to know that you are capable of listening to people, after all. (Conversely, it's great to see you've developed the gall to criticise KSP 1 devs ) I have to give him some credit, KSP wasn't a plain copy of its inspiration, Orbiter, and it wasn't an open-and-shut case of assetflipitis, and its physics worked on a basic level - especially in the teasers and gameplay footage that's meant to show the game's good side. If a naff pun, a cat rig being worn by a human animation and spaffing default cubes everywhere, and a physics bug resulting in a capsule spinning on top of a rocket in an obviously impossible fashion, is Star Paws' good side, I don't want to see actual gameplay. And those videos are considered good enough to repost every week. I can't imagine an asset flip so broken that over the course of an 8 month media campaign, the developers could not get more footage of rockets launching and not suffering physics bugs. Or these developers simply don't give a... crap Either way, I feel bad for for the two people who wishlisted it and never found out about KSP 1/2 or JNO. And, of course, the way those uncanny cats dance just brings my liquid to a boil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisias Posted December 15 Author Share Posted December 15 (edited) 12 hours ago, PDCWolf said: Every other reply that's not to a campaign like those is a tweet by itself of the same videos... and if you go back far enough, you'd just realize it's a rotation of the same videos over and over and over and over, showing little progress since september 20 when that account started posting. I gave a more thoughtful look on this youtube channel : https://www.youtube.com/@StarPaws-game The oldest video on this channel have almost a year - so unless he have access to some privileged information I don't think he's trying to leverage the KSA announcement. If this is a scam, it's an original one. Granted, there's only 4 featured videos there. Most of his communication was made on shorts, with a somewhat sui generis sense of humour. I don't think that all that short would have a good reception on this Forum, however. You appears to be right on the money, it's (or at least, was) a lone dude trying his luck. The enervating thing on YouTube shorts is that we don't have a timestamp on them. I think that he may had decided to get some P/R help exactly on September when the twitter/x account was created. I don't think his project was incepted as a scam, however. Scammers try to pass an image of professionalism and trustworthiness - this guy is essentially mocking himself half of the shorts. Not saying this may not became one, however. It will depend of whoever decided to fund/help him - at least since September. The following tweet: says "our", not "mine". And, agreed, the visual language is completely unrelated to the videos published until the moment. This shot makes the game pretty near the visuals presented by Space Agency 2138. Well, we will need to wait and see. I still hope this dude is serious on the project, and that he manages to get at least a minimum level of success to make the endeavours minimally profitable somehow. Legally, ethically profitable. Edited December 15 by Lisias The day they outlaw tyops will precede the day I will go up the river... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDCWolf Posted December 15 Share Posted December 15 7 hours ago, Lisias said: The enervating thing on YouTube shorts is that we don't have a timestamp on them. You can replace the short url with a normal youtube video url and swap the IDs over to the normal url, and it'll load like a normal video. Last short was posted October 18, first short was posted August 22. 7 hours ago, Lisias said: I don't think his project was incepted as a scam, however. Scammers try to pass an image of professionalism and trustworthiness - this guy is essentially mocking himself half of the shorts. Remember that "Scam" is insofar as you consider not getting any game if he doesn't get enough wishlists as a scam. Legally it'll never be a scam, it's just incredibly disingenuous to measure interest like that and pivot completely from an idea delivering nothing after making people wishlist your game... Specially when you add messages like "it's in alpha" and create trailers and stuff. However legally speaking you'd be using a steam feature (and a fee of $100) as a market sounding investment. 7 hours ago, Lisias said: Well, we will need to wait and see. I still hope this dude is serious on the project, and that he manages to get at least a minimum level of success to make the endeavours minimally profitable somehow. Legally, ethically profitable. Same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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