Cupcake's Dropship Dealership...

[Dafni]

The two new spaceplanes look cool.

What is this 1.1.3 wheel drag issue that 1.1.1/2 dont seem have then? So already waiting for the next patch to fix yet another annoying bug?? Will this ever stop?? Kinda tired of having to switch back to older versions of this game.

[Rune]

3 hours ago, Dafni said:

The two new spaceplanes look cool.

What is this 1.1.3 wheel drag issue that 1.1.1/2 dont seem have then? So already waiting for the next patch to fix yet another annoying bug?? Will this ever stop?? Kinda tired of having to switch back to older versions of this game.

Yup, it's a confirmed bug. And upon further research, it's not just wheels. It's also landing legs! Apparently they also don't occlude when they should (cargo bays, fairings, you name it). It's made me wonder whether my SSTOs were all breaking, when the fault was in the payload. Still, I am still wondering what that has to do with these spaceplanes in particular... they don't seem to rely on occlusion at all. Someone mentioned that wheels generate more drag backwards, but if so I don't really know what is going on.

3 hours ago, Cupcake... said:

Trust me the last thing this plane needs is more canards, it's stupidly manoeuvrable as it is! I actually really like the look of the plane but each to his own I guess.

 

Cupcake...

 

PS Managed to load a Violet with fuel and get it to Minmus and back, good times!

I meant you could use them to get rid of the clipped surfaces near the cabin... if you don't need the control, you can always set the slider to zero, and they'll just be funny-looking wings. As it is, it looks more like a rocket than a plane! But of course, your bird, your design decisions.

 

Rune. KSP drag is... weird.

[Cupcake...]

28 minutes ago, Rune said:

Yup, it's a confirmed bug. And upon further research, it's not just wheels. It's also landing legs! Apparently they also don't occlude when they should (cargo bays, fairings, you name it). It's made me wonder whether my SSTOs were all breaking, when the fault was in the payload. Still, I am still wondering what that has to do with these spaceplanes in particular... they don't seem to rely on occlusion at all. Someone mentioned that wheels generate more drag backwards, but if so I don't really know what is going on.

I meant you could use them to get rid of the clipped surfaces near the cabin... if you don't need the control, you can always set the slider to zero, and they'll just be funny-looking wings. As it is, it looks more like a rocket than a plane! But of course, your bird, your design decisions.

 

Rune. KSP drag is... weird.

As you know I like to keep my designs lean and mean and I think adding control surfaces without using the control part will just add needless weight. Saying that the lift surfaces sticking through the cabin did look better before but I had to flip the cabin round in order to get the docking port working.

Design compromises huh?

 

Cupcake...

 

 

[Dafni]

48 minutes ago, Rune said:

Yup, it's a confirmed bug. And upon further research, it's not just wheels. It's also landing legs! Apparently they also don't occlude when they should (cargo bays, fairings, you name it).

Now really? And they did in 1.1.1? Wow, those guys. That's just sad, and very annoying too.

Anyway, thanks for the information. Lets hope it gets fixed one day.

[Rune]

5 minutes ago, Dafni said:

Now really? And they did in 1.1.1? Wow, those guys. That's just sad, and very annoying too.

Anyway, thanks for the information. Lets hope it gets fixed one day.

It's on the bug tracker and @sal_vager is already looking into it. In Squad's defense, it's probably something related to the fixes they did in 1.1.2 to the wheels and legs, specifically the layer they put them in so kerbals didn't interact with them while on EVA and be flung away (which I think they still do). Probably. Maybe. Here's hoping for 1.2!

But what exactly is Indigo's drag issue, @Cupcake...? Have you taken a look with the debug tool on to see what makes drag and what doesn't? BTW, now that you explain it, the design decision makes a lot of sense. Though I still think it looks like it doesn't have enough wing to fly IMHO...

 

Rune. The occlusion boxes also got slightly smaller, I think. Check those docking ports are occluded!

[Majorjim!]

25 minutes ago, Rune said:

Yup, it's a confirmed bug.

As I posted on the previous page I can confirm that retracted wheels create less drag than lowered wheels. 5 mins of testing will show this to anyone willing to actually test it.

Just now, Rune said:

Though I still think it looks like it doesn't have enough wing to fly IMHO...

I disagree! It looks perfect for a high speed SSTO lifting body aircraft.

[Rune]

4 minutes ago, Majorjim said:

As I posted on the previous page I can confirm that retracted wheels create less drag than lowered wheels. 5 mins of testing will show this to anyone willing to actually test it.

Yeah, I wasn't referring to that. As you say, that works nicely. The thing that is broken for sure is that if you put wheels (and legs) inside a cargo bay and/or fairing, they will still create drag. And the thing I ask about is what is exactly stopping the Indigo from making orbit with wheels on in 1.1.3. Must be a drag related issue.

 

Rune. It's murder for high efficiency SSTOs that rely on low drag to go transonic.

[Majorjim!]

Just now, Rune said:

Yeah, I wasn't referring to that. As you say, that works nicely. The thing that is broken for sure is that if you put wheels (and legs) inside a cargo bay and/or fairing, they will still create drag. And the thing I ask about is what is exactly stopping the Indigo from making orbit with wheels on in 1.1.3. Must be a drag related issue.

 

Rune. It's murder for high efficiency SSTOs that rely on low drag to go transonic.

Riiight so a bay or faring issue. Do you have a vehicle with gear in a bay?

[Rune]

3 minutes ago, Majorjim said:

Riiight so a bay or faring issue. Do you have a vehicle with gear in a bay?

Tons. Remember my base in a box? It's an absurd number of legs, with a rover on top, put inside a cargo bay, put inside a fairing. That is like, the poster child of the bug. But if you start thinking about it, it is not that weird to have something with some kind of landing gear, be it wheeled or not, inside a cargo bay or a fairing.

 

Rune. Like, say, any kind of lander.

[Majorjim!]

Just now, Rune said:

Tons. Remember my base in a box? It's an absurd number of legs, with a rover on top, put inside a cargo bay, put inside a fairing. That is like, the poster child of the bug. But if you start thinking about it, it is not that weird to have something with some kind of landing gear, be it wheeled or not, inside a cargo bay or a fairing.

 

Rune. Like, say, any kind of lander.

No not weird at all man,

 I have a tonne myself. Why I mentioned it was because you guys where talking about SSTOs not performing except stowed wheels are occluded..

And you launch those bases in boxes from a rocket anyway right? Do they not make orbit anymore??

So? Where is the issue?

Edited July 19, 2016 by Majorjim

[Rune]

39 minutes ago, Majorjim said:

No not weird at all man,

 I have a tonne myself. Why I mentioned it was because you guys where talking about SSTOs not performing except stowed wheels are occluded..

And you launch those bases in boxes from a rocket anyway right? Do they not make orbit anymore??

So? Where is the issue?

The issue is the BIAB only makes orbit because it's launcher is 25% oversized. Used to be you could launch it with the Ore tank full and without boosters, and if you were a good pilot you still could make orbit and recover. And that is a rocket, any SSTO carrying things with landing gear that is supposed to be occluded has its performance drastically reduced, especially if it's an efficient one with low TWR. So yeah, basically a bug affecting anything that flies in atmosphere and carries cargo.

That is in general. The particular issue in this thread is that cupcake's SSTO used to make orbit, and it doesn't anymore, and I'm trying to find out if it's related or if it's something else entirely. It is beginning to look like the latter, but hey, I'd rather he answers himself.

 

Rune. Nothing to do with stowed wheels, in other words, tough it's nice to hear the trivia that they finally work like they are supposed to.

[Majorjim!]

Just now, Rune said:

The issue is the BIAB only makes orbit because it's launcher is 25% oversized. Used to be you could launch it with the Ore tank full and without boosters, and if you were a good pilot you still could make orbit and recover. And that is a rocket, any SSTO carrying things with landing gear that is supposed to be occluded has its performance drastically reduced, especially if it's an efficient one with low TWR. So yeah, basically a bug affecting anything that flies in atmosphere and carries cargo.

That is in general. The particular issue in this thread is that cupcake's SSTO used to make orbit, and it doesn't anymore, and I'm trying to find out if it's related or if it's something else entirely. It is beginning to look like the latter, but hey, I'd rather he answers himself.

 

Rune. Nothing to do with stowed wheels, in other words, tough it's nice to hear the trivia that they finally work like they are supposed to.

So you tested the BIAB with a full ore tank and no boosters and the drag was enough to stop it making orbit? Wow it must be bad indeed.

  Right so do you know which of his SSTOs have wheels in bays? Or is it the legs on that little ship he has in his bay?

Yup @Cupcake... let's hear from the horses mouth, so to speak.

 P.s, Rune your sign offs make conversions a giggle. I know, it's far too late to stop doing it now, troll lol lol.

Edited July 19, 2016 by Majorjim

[Cupcake...]

22 hours ago, Dafni said:

The two new spaceplanes look cool.

What is this 1.1.3 wheel drag issue that 1.1.1/2 dont seem have then? So already waiting for the next patch to fix yet another annoying bug?? Will this ever stop?? Kinda tired of having to switch back to older versions of this game.

 

16 hours ago, Rune said:

The issue is the BIAB only makes orbit because it's launcher is 25% oversized. Used to be you could launch it with the Ore tank full and without boosters, and if you were a good pilot you still could make orbit and recover. And that is a rocket, any SSTO carrying things with landing gear that is supposed to be occluded has its performance drastically reduced, especially if it's an efficient one with low TWR. So yeah, basically a bug affecting anything that flies in atmosphere and carries cargo.

That is in general. The particular issue in this thread is that cupcake's SSTO used to make orbit, and it doesn't anymore, and I'm trying to find out if it's related or if it's something else entirely. It is beginning to look like the latter, but hey, I'd rather he answers himself.

 

Rune. Nothing to do with stowed wheels, in other words, tough it's nice to hear the trivia that they finally work like they are supposed to.

 

16 hours ago, Majorjim said:

So you tested the BIAB with a full ore tank and no boosters and the drag was enough to stop it making orbit? Wow it must be bad indeed.

  Right so do you know which of his SSTOs have wheels in bays? Or is it the legs on that little ship he has in his bay?

Yup @Cupcake... let's hear from the horses mouth, so to speak.

 P.s, Rune your sign offs make conversions a giggle. I know, it's far too late to stop doing it now, troll lol lol.

Well folks the trouble seems to be excessive drag from the landing gear in the new version the result of which means my planes won't break past Mach 1. They gear isn't mounted in the cargo bay so there's no issue with occlusion. Looking at the 1.1.3 release notes I didn't see any mention of landing gear drag values being tweaked so I think it's an unintended consequence of whatever band aid they applied to fix the issues people have been having. If I remove the landing gear or make them detachable the craft works just fine. I probably should put in a bug report.  

18 hours ago, Rune said:

It's on the bug tracker and @sal_vager is already looking into it. In Squad's defense, it's probably something related to the fixes they did in 1.1.2 to the wheels and legs, specifically the layer they put them in so kerbals didn't interact with them while on EVA and be flung away (which I think they still do). Probably. Maybe. Here's hoping for 1.2!

But what exactly is Indigo's drag issue, @Cupcake...? Have you taken a look with the debug tool on to see what makes drag and what doesn't? BTW, now that you explain it, the design decision makes a lot of sense. Though I still think it looks like it doesn't have enough wing to fly IMHO...

 

Rune. The occlusion boxes also got slightly smaller, I think. Check those docking ports are occluded!

I havn't checked the docking port in the latest version but in 1.1.1 it's occluded just fine. I'll try and have a pre-release version of the Violet out today, you'd be surprised how little wing this craft needs, especially once the lifting bodies are taken into account.  It's still very well behaved at low speeds and will touch down at 50-60m/s at low fuel loads.

 

Cupcake... 

Edited July 20, 2016 by Cupcake...

[Cupcake...]

With the Indigo I discovered it could land on Minmus by accident rather than design. With this in mind I've decided to build a dedicated, light weight, SSTO specially for these sorts of missions.

I have to say it's not shaping up too badly at all.

If anyone's gasping for a pre-release version let me know, and I'll get something posted.

Cupcake...

[siliconworm]

On 5/3/2013 at 7:18 PM, Cupcake... said:

INDIGO - LIGHT CARGO SSTO (1.1.1/2 Only)

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/144198-violet-light-cargo-ssto-1112-only/

HARLEQUIN - MODULAR MOTHERSHIP (Pre-Release) (1.1 Ready)

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/142516-harlequin-modular-mothership-pre-release/

SIREN - VTOL MINISUB (1.1 Ready)

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/139120-siren-vtol-minisub-pre-release/

TUI - LIGHT ATHMO TRAINER (1.1 Ready)

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/136559-tui-light-athmo-dropship-pre-release/

SHRIMP - ION MICRO DROPSHIP (1.1 Ready)

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/131999-shrimp-ion-micro-lander-pre-release/

MORK & MINDY - ULTRALIGHT DROPSHIPS (1.1 Ready)

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/128101-a-little-stocking-filler-from-cupcake-landers/

 

GNAT - LIGHT ATHMO VTOL (1.1 Ready)

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/127720-gnat-light-athmo-dropship/

CYPHER - High Performance/Prospector Dropship (1.1 Ready)

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/126428-cypher-high-performance-dropshipprospector/

PUFF PUFF MK2 - Ultralight RCS Dropship (1.1 Ready)

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/138165-Puff-Puff-Mk2-Ultralight-RCS-Dropship

ODDS AND SODS...

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/131766-cupcakes-odds-n-sods/

RETIRED FROM ACTIVE SERVICE:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/25343-cupcakes-dropship-dealership/&do=findComment&comment=683877

What camera plugin did you use to get the 1st person view of a Kerbal?

[Cupcake...]

On 8/9/2016 at 5:38 PM, siliconworm said:

What camera plugin did you use to get the 1st person view of a Kerbal?

Hullcam VDS has a first person Kerbal View, not sure how up to date it is though...

 

Cupcake...

[siliconworm]

 ­

Edited December 18, 2017 by siliconworm

[MedwedianPresident]

I like the concept of using a service bay as a crew compartment (Siren mini sub). If the bay is larger, command seats could be placed there. Useful for rescue ships because it usually offers more space than a Hitchhinker.

[Cupcake...]

4 hours ago, MedwedianPresident said:

I like the concept of using a service bay as a crew compartment (Siren mini sub). If the bay is larger, command seats could be placed there. Useful for rescue ships because it usually offers more space than a Hitchhinker.

I've found you can squeeze two seats into the service bay at a push, such as on the rescue version of the Gnat.

 

Cupcake...

[Cupcake...]

Well folks work it continuing apace on the Catalyst light SSTO.

I'm pretty happy with the overall hull design which like it's predecessor uses advance canards to provide most of the lift giving the craft exceptional maneuverability.

The Catalyst has met its original design spec which is to fly to Minmus and back. I've also managed to pull off one way trips to Duna where the craft can fly home after being refueled.

My ultimate aim though is to be able to fly direct flights to Laythe which will really push this little plane to it's limits!  

Cupcake...

[inigma]

I would love to see you play a career mode.

[Bison_King]

Which mods are you using?

[Cupcake...]

On 8/19/2016 at 5:20 AM, Bison_King said:

Which mods are you using?

I use quite a few mods (although I build stock) but the one's I can't live without are Editor Extensions and Kerbal Engineering Redux. I'm not sure if you've visted my Youtube channel but I tend to keep a mod list in the video description. Hope this helps.

 

Cupcake...

[Cupcake...]

Heh all,

          Just got my hands on the 1.2 Pre-Release and well... there's good news and bad news. The good news is the Squall and Indigo are flying fantastically, and have received a noticeable performance buff. The bad news is the the perennial materials bay/Kerbal occlusion bug is still there (although not quite so pronounced) so I recommend sticking with the probe cores for now until the issue is (hopefully) fixed.

 

While I'm here anyone that wants to take the Catalyst for a spin feel free.  https://goo.gl/3HG5fM

Again, I recommend flying it without Kerbals for the time being.

Enjoy!

Cupcake...

 

PS @Rune how did you get on with the bug report in the end?

Edited September 26, 2016 by Cupcake...

[Frozen_Heart]

On ‎26‎/‎09‎/‎2016 at 8:14 AM, Cupcake... said:

Heh all,

          Just got my hands on the 1.2 Pre-Release and well... there's good news and bad news. The good news is the Squall and Indigo are flying fantastically, and have received a noticeable performance buff. The bad news is the the perennial materials bay/Kerbal occlusion bug is still there (although not quite so pronounced) so I recommend sticking with the probe cores for now until the issue is (hopefully) fixed.

 

While I'm here anyone that wants to take the Catalyst for a spin feel free.  https://goo.gl/3HG5fM

 

Again, I recommend flying it without Kerbals for the time being.

 

Enjoy!

Cupcake...

 

PS @Rune how did you get on with the bug report in the end?

Hmm odd that your SSTOs have been buffed. Though mine was always pretty bad, (could scrap a 500km orbit) it can't even pass 400m/s now.