Long-term Laythe Mission (pic heavy) - ^_^ With Part 45 ^_^

[PoliticallyCorrectLobster]

I`ve been following this series for a while, and only just created an account. Good job, Brotoro!

[The Jedi Master]

Sorry if this has already been asked (it's a long, bandwidth-sucking thread), but how does 23.5 affect this mission?

[AppleDavidJeans]

Sorry if this has already been asked (it's a long, bandwidth-sucking thread), but how does 23.5 affect this mission?

For one, Brotoro is interested in the claw part because he says it could be used to make surface refueling easier like he does with his birddogs. 23.5 is just to patch in a mission pack. Nothing new for that otherwise.

[Brotoro]

Longterm Laythe, Part 30.5

Sorry if this has already been asked (it's a long, bandwidth-sucking thread), but how does 23.5 affect this mission?

Like any update, it affects this mission firstly because I have to make sure my old save file will open and everything in it will update properly. My ongoing universe has been in effect since its original save game in version 0.18. Sometimes this transition involves a lot of tweaking, as with the landing leg changes a couple versions back, but I expect the update to 0.23.5 to be relatively painless.

Because asteroids do not spawn in an old save file that gets updated to 0.23.5, there will be no asteroids involved...at least until we determine what needs to be tweaked in the save game file code to get around this limitation. Then maybe there will be fun with asteroids in the future.

And, as always after an update, there is a delay until all my favorite mods are tested and updated and either reinstalled or (if there are changes to the game that make them no longer needed) removed. I haven't fully checked yet to see what all works and what doesn't. The clouds and city lights seem to work fine. Kerbal Flight Engineer is displaying, but I haven't checked to see if it working correctly. MechJeb is broken. I see just now that Kerbal Alarm Clock is blinking at me to indicate that there is an update available for it. It appears that the hot key in Precise Node for opening collapsed maneuver nodes isn't working. Docking Camera seems to be operating, but it doesn't work for the Claw yet. Etc, etc. And, even when mods APPEAR to be working correctly after an update, there is still the possibility that they could be doing some game-corrupting activity behind the scenes…so it's best to wait a while for the mod authors to get stuff sorted out (a week or two usually) before proceeding with the mission.

In the meantime, there is the traditional post-update playing around mod-less with all the new features of the new update, which is fun! Like most people, I've been chasing around asteroids. I'm quite pleased with the new joint strength in 0.23.5… my standard Reusable Rocket holds together just fine with 50 or 60 previously-used struts removed. That's a wonderful savings in lag. Unfortunately, of course, old ships will still continue to have more struts than needed on them. I love the fact that when you focus on a target planet, your ship's trajectory is shown relative to that planet…essentially it automatically switches over to conic draw mode zero in that case (and shows trajectories in conic draw mode 3 otherwise). It's also great that maneuver nodes are persistent now, and that you can right-click on them to get the controls to move forward/backward by one orbit. There are a lot of very useful, if not readily apparent, improvements in version 0.23.5. Good job, Squad!

One of the things I've been using MechJeb for for a long time now has been keeping the ship pointed at the maneuver node indicator on the navball during those annoying 20-minute-long burns to head off to the Jool system. But while pushing around an asteroid MechJeb-less, I learned that the stock SAS system now keeps the ship accurately pointed during long burns. Nice to know.

I've been having fun dropping an asteroid at various places on Kerbin, seeing if they float (they don't…they sink) or if they look great as decorations around the KSC (they look marvelous, darling!):

But the real effect that 0.23.5 will have on the Laythe mission will be the use of the Claw for surface docking/refueling. The method I came up with for refueling my BirdDogs from the GasStations allowed me to explore all over Laythe, but the docking procedure does get rather tedious after a while, and it is limited to specially prepared craft…so I had no way to refuel my ShoreLab or NAMOR rescue ships or whatever. It always seemed silly that my kerbals were incapable of doing what the lowliest attendant at a small airport can do (simply run a hose over to a plane and refuel it). The Claw from the ARM update now gives me a workaround for that limitation because it can dock to any ship and allow fuel transfer between the vehicles.

Now I know that some people object to this ability of the Claw as being unrealistic. "How does that even work?", they ask. But I'm not bothered by this. Our ships obviously already have lots of pipes and wires running from all the docking ports to all the various fuel tanks, oxidizer tanks, monopropellant tanks, Xenon tanks, batteries, etc., that are not shown. So I visualize that the Claw has an assortment of built-in hoses that an EVAing kerbal can run between ships docked with the Claw…so I will happily use the Claw for surface refueling.

(What I'd like, of course, is for Squad to allow EVAing kerbals to connect any two ships within a certain maximum distance for refueling. A cool animation of this would be nice, but I assume very difficult…so it would be fine if this was just a right-click option that a Kerbal had while on EVA, like fixing parts, and then the ships could transfer fuel as long as they remained within the limit of the refueling distance.)

So, in addition to playing with asteroids, I have been experimenting with surface docking using the Claw. Just as JPL has their "Mars yard" setup to test Mars rovers, I have set up a "Laythe Land" to test Claw docking (below).

Every sort of ship or vehicle that I have on Laythe that might benefit from refueling, I have set up in an area north of the launch pad. I've been testing a few things, such as a new refueling station that uses Claw ports that a BirdDog or Ladyhawk or Raptor could nuzzle up to for refueling. And also I'm testing a refueling rover that can carry fuel from a refueling station off to other stationary ships that need refueling, such as the ShoreLab or NAMOR.

What I have found is that surface docking with the Claw is pickier than I had hoped for. I was hoping that getting any part of a vehicle within the confines of the Claw's grabbers would result in a docking. It does not. The rather small center region of the Claw has to make contact with the surface of a part in order to dock with it. Trying to dock the Claw to the leading edge of a wing on a plane can be problematic because the wing may not be close enough to the right height to make the connection. What you need is a surface on the plane that has enough vertical extent that the center of the Claw can easily make contact. If you were purpose-building ships for this, it would be easy to include such pieces in handy-to-reach locations (such as vertical rudders out on the wingtips), but I'm working with pre-existing ships here. So it takes some careful tweaking to make sure the center of the Claw is at the right height for a wing docking. It turns out that by far the easiest place to dock to a BirdDog, Ladyhawk, or similar plane is the rear of the jet engine (since the rear of the engine part has a vertical face there, even if it doesn't look like it) . But it does look somewhat rude to have the the refueling station clawing the rear end of the plane. It works, however.

Oh…and it doesn't matter which ship is the active ship in the docking… the Claw will grab even if it is on the passive ship (I was worried about that).

So I have made a refueling station that can supply mobile craft. I can send it with mostly liquid fuel in its tanks for refueling jet planes, or I can send it with oxidizer as well so that my SSTO planes could be refueled (but in most cases the oxidizer will be tweaked out of the tanks to save mass because most of the ships I refuel on Laythe use jet engines). I have also made a rover that can be used to refuel stationary ships, and for which I have another fun mission in mind. I just need to stack these toys onto rockets and send them off to the Jool system in the next transfer window… once I get done playing with asteroids and SLS parts

Edited April 4, 2014 by Brotoro

[Cydonian Monk]

Because asteroids do not spawn in an old save file that gets updated to 0.23.5, there will be no asteroids involved...at least until we determine what needs to be tweaked in the save game file code to get around this limitation. Then maybe there will be fun with asteroids in the future.

I was looking at this last night. It would appear all you need to do is copy over the ScenarioDiscoverableObjects SCENARIO, and some potatoroids should start spawning. Haven't tested it yet, though, but based on tests with enabling research in my former Sandbox saves, there shouldn't be anything else to it. There appears to be a seed name/value pair in that SCENARIO, but it's name is an unprintable character so you /might/ need to use a "slighty-more-advanced-than-Notepad" editor, like Notepad++ or vim. YMMV.

Curious - did you try "clawing" with a pre-rotated claw piece? Such as: you have an armature with a claw on the end that you then claw with another craft. You could rotate the clawed armature to an angle that would reach, say, the top of an aircraft wing, etc. Would allow for changing the "angle of clawing" in the field, if nothing else.

[The Jedi Master]

Oh. My. God. I got quoted on a website I like! Sure, it's just a question, but I feel a sense of unreasonable pride.

[Brotoro]

Cydonian Monk:

Please let us know if your experiments for turning on asteroids in old saves works. Also, you say you turned on research in a sandbox save -- very cool: Do you have a link to where you posted exactly what you did?

No, I did not try docking with a pre-rotated claw. This 'armature' you refer to is a mod part?

[Cydonian Monk]

Please let us know if your experiments for turning on asteroids in old saves works. Also, you say you turned on research in a sandbox save -- very cool: Do you have a link to where you posted exactly what you did?

No, not at the moment. But I'll write something up this weekend when I get the chance. The layout of the persistence file is very intelligent for the most part and pretty easy to work with.

No, I did not try docking with a pre-rotated claw. This 'armature' you refer to is a mod part?

No, I was thinking more of "docking port + structural fuselage (or box strut) + claw" from the stock parts, and then just clawing that piece from another ship once in orbit to provide a pivot point (at the "joint" claw). If you need to swap it out or grab it from a different angle once on the ground you could always claw onto another ship, detach the joint claw, move, re claw. May not work at all depending on the collision mesh of the parts used, though.

[RocketPilot573]

Um, whats this "asteroids don't spawn in old saves?" A tiny patch updates was released a few hours after the main release that fixed that. My old save is working fine. It applies the needed updates to old saves automatically.

[Brotoro]

Um, whats this "asteroids don't spawn in old saves?" A tiny patch updates was released a few hours after the main release that fixed that. My old save is working fine. It applies the needed updates to old saves automatically.

What's this? The pre-release information said there would be no asteroids in old saves. The version I downloaded (admittedly, right after release) does not show asteroids in my old save games. I didn't see where Squad said anything about a newer version released a few hours later that allowed asteroids in old saves…but I'll go download the game again and see what happens.

[RocketPilot573]

What's this? The pre-release information said there would be no asteroids in old saves. The version I downloaded (admittedly, right after release) does not show asteroids in my old save games. I didn't see where Squad said anything about a newer version released a few hours later that allowed asteroids in old saves…but I'll go download the game again and see what happens.

It was said down at the bottom of the release article, so redownloading should work.

[Cydonian Monk]

Well then. My work here is done.

Seriously though, I had also missed the hot fix. Probably because I never got a notification about it as I turn off the update checker (and every part of KSP that asks to use the internet... at least until Multiplayer happens). And that launcher thing has never worked for me in OS-X. After a quick download and copying a save from 0.20 over, I can confirm that asteroids do indeed spawn in old saves games when using the hot fix. A class C potatoroid spawned just outside of Kerbin's SOI almost at once.

It also fixed my "Kerbals go permanent rag doll on EVA" bug... thankfully.

[Brotoro]

New version downloaded. Asteroids are now spawning in the old save.

Thankie, RocketPilot573! Have some kerbal snacks.

[Scotius]

Does it means you will go for a real asteroid mission in your main save? With all storytelling bells and whistles? It's not Magic Boulder (R.I.P. ), but i'm sure it will be fun.

[Daddy Cecil]

Brotoro, have you ever considered installing KAS for the fuel pipes and stuff? I think it would be useful just for that, without the shenanigans with the claw...

[undercoveryankee]

Brotoro, have you ever considered installing KAS for the fuel pipes and stuff? I think it would be useful just for that, without the shenanigans with the claw...

KAS on the ground has a reputation as kraken bait. Even though it's gotten better, I can see why a non-KAS solution would be attractive.

[Brotoro]

Brotoro, have you ever considered installing KAS for the fuel pipes and stuff? I think it would be useful just for that, without the shenanigans with the claw...

I like to see what I can accomplish with the cards Squad deals me. Engineering is all about what you can do within the limitations given (be they technological, economic, time-constrained, etc.).

[Deddly]

I have to commend you, Brotoro, for patiently taking the time to answer the same questions that keep popping up over and over, without ever losing your patience or condesendingly telling them to search for the answer or read the thread before asking. I like your attitude.

--

Me

[TaVo]

Very nice narrative there brotoro...This series is turning out to be the novel i always wanted to read. Keep up the good work . Oh and i hope that our brave kerbonauts can overcome the hostilities that Tylo is known for

[Brotoro]

I have to commend you, Brotoro, for patiently taking the time to answer the same questions that keep popping up over and over, without ever losing your patience or condesendingly telling them to search for the answer or read the thread before asking. I like your attitude.

Thank you. It's a long thread…I don't expect people to be able to quickly and easily find everything in it.

Today in my Laythe Save… I'm testing rockets built with the new 3.whatever meter parts.

[KerballianDummy]

Awesome work here, Brotoro, I'd read every entry so far - and you even inspired me to try and get to Laythe! And I'm one of the worst at making stuff to go interplanetary. I managed it though, by stealing your tug design and blending it with my own launcher. And boy, was it worth the hours upon hours of failed burns - finally getting the White Dart (made by Rune) onto Laythe was well worth the time!

Anyway, have you thought of sending the chaps on Laythe a jet bike to mess around with? It might be able to get to the places the BirdDogs and Fidos can't when roving - and I imagine it'd be fairly fuel efficient too, considering it'd probably be a fairly small craft. Maybe this would help a little with the design process: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/63038-Jet-Cycle

Either way, I'm looking forward to seeing how the rest of the mission plays out! And poor ol' Thompbles, always getting the short end of the stick and having to do all the thankless, tedious tasks.

[Brotoro]

Preview for Part 31...

CONFIDENTIAL

For eyes only of listed KSC administrators, specified friendly senators, and designated officials in member companies of the Kerbodyne Launch Consortium.

Certainly NOT to be seen by any officers or employees of Rockomax Conglomerates, any officers or employees of member companies in the Rockomax Launch Alliance, any unfriendly senators, any members of the press, and especially not that guy Phil who runs the lunch counter in the Astronaut Complex…he blabs everything.

CONFIDENTIAL

[astropapi1]

Looking awesome!

[Zephram Kerman]

Jeb looks skeptical. Says it's not nearly crazy enough, way too sleek and sexy, and obviously boringly reliable. If you only have to throttle up and steer properly, well where is the fun and excitement in that? Please ignore the drool stains on this post.

[Geschosskopf]

Bro-

Thanks for posting your claw experiments. I've been meaning to do a lot of that same stuff myself but haven't been able to get around to it.

I look forward to the continuing adventures of your Laythe crew.