Been thinking about a Grand Tour...

[Pbhead]

So. I think it would be darn neat to land on every single planetary surface in one mission.

big craft with a ton of fuel tanks... mothership style. Probably a giant space train, nuclear engines (gimble locked, because physics...) in front (again, because pushing docking ports is recipe for unintentional stage separation) , pulling modules of landers and fuel tanks.

But I am wondering what is the best way to go about this.

As in, which places should be gone to in what order?

I feel like Eve makes a nice first target, because its easy to get to and dam hard to take off from... it needs a huge, non-reusable lander which you really wouldnt want to take to every other planet first.

Moho, of course, is a pain, I almost want to save it for last...

But I really dont know here, what the most fuel-optimal visiting path here is.

I also though about how to visit things, like dres, and eeloo, maybe moho too, not pulling the mothership in orbit around those gravity wells, but instead having the mothership simply do a flyby, while a lander does a suicide burn, quickly plants a flag, and then races to catch back up to the mothership.... Has anyone done something like that before? I think that while it would require a ton of fuel on the lander, and thus a very over built lander, not having to bring the mothership into a orbit, and then later burn away would save a lot of fuel... maybe.

Id appreciate any thoughts on the matter, it will not be easy, and perhaps i really should wait for the fabled resource system before attempting it all, but maybe that is most of the fun, getting from kerbin, visiting everywhere, and getting back, without refueling. (though, while certainly jettisoning a lot of empty orange tanks into space!)

[bsalis]

My suggestion is to rethink doing this with a one craft setup and no refueling.

IMO if you want to do a Grand Tour, then first I would drop an Eve landing and possibly Tylo as well. Then decide if you want to do this with support craft (ie. tankers and/or tugs, possibly unmanned) to be all stock, or to use Kethane.

[Superfluous J]

It depends on how much you're willing to "cheat." You already talked about a lander so I assume you're thinking of having a huge ship with multiple landers on it, maybe one for Eve and then several more for other worlds. For Eve, you'd land, then take off in a smaller craft to rejoin the mothership.

If you took this a bit further, you could set up the mothership to pass by Eve from far away without ever entering orbit. Then, about a month out, launch your lander and get to Eve early, land, and then return before your mothership gets too far away. With some planning, you could use Gilly to slow yourself down to save fuel. That way, you're not using a ton of fuel on the large ship.

If you can work out the mechanics of it, you could go in and hit Eve and Moho, then go back out and hit Duna et al at a more leisurely pace. Ideally you could hit them all "voyager style" but I have no idea how to calculate that.

And no, I have no idea how much fuel all this would take, or how to go about doing it. But I think you gave me something to shoot for in 0.21

[Sof]

Doing this all stock would be a massive lag fest. You'd need so much fuel, it wouldn't even bare thinking about trying to land and take off from every world. The burns would take forever to do.

Best bet is to make a Kethane mining rig so you can refuel.

Otherwise, top up your mothership with supply runs and only take one or 2 landers with you.

[Hannu]

I suggest that you should use gravity slingshots. Othervise you need so large ship that I fear that game's physics engine can not handle it. Problem with slingshots is that delta-v is quite limited and typically you need several flybys and about 2-10 orbits between every flyby. Travel time will be extremely long, but fortunately kerbals live forever without food and breathing. Search for example Messenger or Cassini planet probes paths and try them. You have to calculate things by hand, because KSP's or Mechjeb's orbit planning systems can not handle multiple orbits before flyby.

[Spatzimaus]

It's been done with stock, and no refueling, but it requires a lot of slingshotting and such and you won't have much room for any kind of fun payloads, like rovers. If you're willing to use Kethane, it's a totally different story, like so:

Other than Eve, a single design worked for every planet/moon (well, other than Jool, obviously), a 55-ton lander with onboard refinery, hybrid ion engines, and so on. The Nimbus, my ship, docked with fuel stations roughly every 2 landings, with certain moons/planets requiring a bit more on-site support than others.

The thing is, in the near future (0.22?) the official game will add an expanded resource system that allows for refining of fuel. We don't have all of the specifics about the equipment itself, but the point is that using Kethane isn't really a "cheat" since it's just a placeholder for what'll go in once they work the kinks out of the official system. Besides, it's a lot harder than it sounds; one of the biggest problems with refining is that you have to land on the deposits, and on some planets/moons that is NOT easy. On Laythe, for instance, there are just very few resource deposits that will fall on land, and most of those are placed awkwardly (near the poles, or on steep slopes). So it's a lot of work.

[superm18]

I am curently trying the same thing! My first attempt failed due to lack of experience. But the thing I learned was to have one lander for Eve and one for all the rest. The fuel needed is...omg...crazy! But this CAN be done without mods and refueling.

I'm writing from my phone, but I'll post some pictures of my ship when I get back home. Btw, i would love to see your idea's as well.

[Shuttle]

If you want to ascent from sea level on Eve, you need 200t ascent vehicle. That's quite a lot

[magnemoe]

I did an run with kethane refueling.

it include an Eve lander using balloons in front, an small lander mounted on the side, the main mothership and an huge kethane miner at the bottom. The miner was also the main lander, able to SSTO on Laythe and Tylo.

One idea to do this stock might be to haul an huge fuel depot to low Eve orbit together with the Eve lander. Use this to refuel after going to Moho.

You could even leave some of the stuff needed for Jool like the Laythe and Tylo lander in Eve orbit and only bring the medium lander.

For landers I would probably use one lander for Laythe using jet first stage and a multi stage lander for Tylo. One other lander for other places or perhaps an very small one for low gravity moons.

[magnemoe]

If you want to ascent from sea level on Eve, you need 200t ascent vehicle. That's quite a lot

Easier now with the command seat you can get below 50 ton.

[tavert]

Easier now with the command seat you can get below 50 ton.

Even with the lightest pod, if you don't land at sea level. Sea level on Eve doubles or triples the weight of your Eve lander (at least), best to aim for the highest mountains. I was doing some plans for this type of thing using http://alexmoon.github.io/ksp to figure out which order to do things in, how the windows lined up, etc. If you go the heavy mothership approach carrying most of the fuel, remember that only the lander has to go all the way into the gravity well into low orbit, the mothership can stay in a highly-eccentric orbit. This may significantly mess with your ejection-burn alignment, however.

Edited July 11, 2013 by tavert

[brians200]

So what order are you all doing your tours in? Is it better to go towards the sun or away from the sun first?

[Skyrunner27]

What if you set up a type of mission where it is a bunch of separate missions. You send up a command module and you send up a lander. You go to the planet, land, swap lander and then repeat until all planets have been visited. Sort of like a variable screwdriver.

[Arrowstar]

I'm going to go ahead and shamelessly plug a tool I'm writing that might help you here. It's called the KSP Trajectory Optimization Tool and its add-on thread is located here. As far as I know, it's the only application available for KSP that will help compute optimal fly-by maneuvers. Give it a look and tell me what you think.

[Moon Goddess]

I'm thinking what if you spend one in game year launching tanks of fuel in orbit of all the planets, than send your ship in the next year. That way when you get there, fuel for the next leg is already there.

[magnemoe]

Even with the lightest pod, if you don't land at sea level. Sea level on Eve doubles or triples the weight of your Eve lander (at least), best to aim for the highest mountains. I was doing some plans for this type of thing using http://alexmoon.github.io/ksp to figure out which order to do things in, how the windows lined up, etc. If you go the heavy mothership approach carrying most of the fuel, remember that only the lander has to go all the way into the gravity well into low orbit, the mothership can stay in a highly-eccentric orbit. This may significantly mess with your ejection-burn alignment, however.

Guess you are right, I use balloons to get my Eve landers out of the atmosphere, however an mountain landing work well enough for this plant the flag mission.

[Xaiier]

I also though about how to visit things, like dres, and eeloo, maybe moho too, not pulling the mothership in orbit around those gravity wells, but instead having the mothership simply do a flyby, while a lander does a suicide burn, quickly plants a flag, and then races to catch back up to the mothership.... Has anyone done something like that before?

BRB Science...

[nimbim]

You could send fuel tanks to every destination beforehand, probably a lot faster since you won't have to deal with mega lag.

[Unistrut]

I'm just going to jump in with another vote for "Don't try and haul all your fuel with you". The original "Grand Tour" was a series of slingshots off planets, so they didn't need to do any serious burns. If you're planning on orbiting and landing on places you're going to need to do some pretty major dV changes at each stop.

So, get really good at docking and leave fuel barges and resupply ships at each destination.

[regex]

I'm thinking what if you spend one in game year launching tanks of fuel in orbit of all the planets, than send your ship in the next year. That way when you get there, fuel for the next leg is already there.

This is how I would do it, although I'd probably run several at once: send out tankers to Eve and Moho, transfer to Eve and Moho, while that's going on send out tankers to Duna, Jool, Eeloo, Dres... In fact, I'd probably send the Eve lander (or hell, all landers!) out with the tankers or as a separate ship. That way you can bring along toys.

For me, the important part would be that the same crew did the entire thing in one flight, all the gear can be shipped out to them.

[Deadweasel]

BBC had a great series about just this sort of thing. It could help provide some ideas.

Key points it shows (as have already been mentioned):

Refueling stations at key points

Multiple landers for different environments

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N68U3eYQ_Cg

[magnemoe]

I also though about how to visit things, like dres, and eeloo, maybe moho too, not pulling the mothership in orbit around those gravity wells, but instead having the mothership simply do a flyby, while a lander does a suicide burn, quickly plants a flag, and then races to catch back up to the mothership.... Has anyone done something like that before?

Doing this for Moho will save you a lot as its an very expensive trip and your mothership carry a lot of fuel. Small pod, nerva and drop tanks. drop two before landing and the other two on the way back.

Eeloo, not so sure, your mothership should be pretty light by now you might even have dropped parts of it and you only have one lander left. I would recommend going where with the mothership with the option to return to Kerbin with the lander.

Dress, not sure how much you save by sending the mothership from Duna to Jool directly and only stop with the lander, might be an idea if you used an nuclear lander from the Moho trip, do Dress with it, then use if for Bob and Pol so you don't have to go so far from Jool.

[Benie]

I've also been strongly thinking about this; having a dropship design that can land on planets, and not float down sideways with parachutes.

Had this problem with a quick rocket I made, that has 3 Hitchhiker Modules and a standard Command Pod to control it. On the nose had a decoupler and a Sr Clamp O Tron. Its mission was to rendezvous with my Space Station over Duna (13 Kerbals), get the crew of the station off and land at Duna Base Alpha; their permanent home.

The redesign I did for it (which I hoped would work) was have the main engine (a Mainsail) pop off with a decoupler, including the Docking Port, when MechJeb's Landing Autopilot spun me around for my atmosphere entering breaking burn.

The landing with MechJeb went OK. But then when I popped all parachutes at 110m/s which I normally do for my Rover/Lander combos on Duna (and works no problem), the rocket seemed heavier on one side and light on the other, even though I had parachutes to hopefully balance the landing.

I had to disengage Landing Autopilot and land it myself, since it failed twice to do it automatically. Somehow I got it upright.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Benie

[-RanZ-]

I can't wait for the resource system to be implemented, I will probably do a grand tour after that!

[Tw1]

I wonder if it would be feasible using ion engines. You'd need less fuel, if you used periapse kicks, and put up with extremely long burns. Landers would have to use more conventional engines.

I wonder if the game could run the necessary amount of xenon tanks.