Career Mode and Mods

[Ski]

How would it improve your gameplay? If you don't want to use mods, isn't the simplest solution just… to not use mods? No need for an extra game feature for that.

It would tell me whether or not mods were used for certain maneuver in game. It won't affect you, so why you have a problem with it?

[malkuth]

ASAS doesn't fly your ship for you, as it only maintains a heading. I never said don't allow mods, just don't allow them in career mode. Besides, half of KSP IS flying your rocket, and testing your engineering skills. You shouldn't need an autopilot to enjoy the game.

Everyone enjoys their game the way the like to play it.. Me, you or anyone else should not tell them otherwise. You play the game your way.. And let others play it there way.. Its a good rule to follow.

[Qumefox]

Why? And this has nothing to do with any particular mod, just mods in general. If someone wants to magic his station to orbit with hyperedit and give himself a bazillion kerbal dollars with some other mod, what difference does it make?

I'll counter this with.. if they want to do this, what's the point of them even playing in career mode in the first place? Why not just stick with sandbox mode?

The 'career mode should be sandbox where nothing matters' argument makes zero sense to me since players who don't want limits can just stick with playing in the sandbox.

[Lanfranc]

It would tell me whether or not mods were used for certain maneuver in game. It won't affect you, so why you have a problem with it?

It just sounds like a feature of rather limited utility, which probaby only a minority of the player base care about. And there's an opportunity cost, as it will take up dev resources, which then won't be working on other features. So it does affect me in that way.

[SleepyWacKo]

It would tell me whether or not mods were used for certain maneuver in game. It won't affect you, so why you have a problem with it?

ahh so this is a trust issue. what would you suggest to be done about hyperediting? that is not a mod but someone can simply hyperedit themselves somewhere along with a fully functioning base? they didn't use mods either all stock, how would you suggest you be able to tell that?

[Ski]

If you doubt of someone's sincerity when saying he did something the way he said he did, then there's really nothing you an do. But don't worry, I have never ever seen someone on this forum lie on his achievements and cheat a non accepted parameter in. You should trust people instead of asking for the world to accommodate to you.

While I admire you trust in humanity, be warned: you might change your mind with years to come.

Don't try to make me look like a primadonna. If this is only me or I'm in a vast minority then this won't happen no matter how much I want it. I don't try to change your gameplay, do I?

[stupid_chris]

I'll counter this with.. if they want to do this, what's the point of them even playing in career mode in the first place? Why not just stick with sandbox mode?

The 'career mode should be sandbox where nothing matters' argument makes zero sense to me since players who don't want limits can just stick with playing in the sandbox.

But why does this affect you? What will it change to you if people do that?

[SleepyWacKo]

I'll counter this with.. if they want to do this, what's the point of them even playing in career mode in the first place?

because they "CHOSE" too, all the point needed! it would be your "CHOICE" whether or not to use mods/hyperediting, simply "CHOOSE" not too, why disable the feature when you can do it yourself?

[SleepyWacKo]

I don't try to change your gameplay, do I?

no one is trying to change your gameplay, you already have the ability to play how you choose too! you just want the ability to see how another player chose to play!

[Ski]

ahh so this is a trust issue. what would you suggest to be done about hyperediting? that is not a mod but someone can simply hyperedit themselves somewhere along with a fully functioning base? they didn't use mods either all stock, how would you suggest you be able to tell that?

I think we are arguing about fundamentals. If any form of altering Career mode is allowed, why to even waste time in developing career mode. I started my argument thinking that you support it in general.

[Ski]

no one is trying to change your gameplay, you already have the ability to play how you choose too! you just want the ability to see how another player chose to play!

Yes and no. I want career mode that makes sense to me. What you describe is sandbox. Why waste devs time at all making career mode? It's essentially same question. You could just post challenges in sandbox and play as you wish without career mode at all.

[stupid_chris]

While I admire you trust in humanity, be warned: you might change your mind with years to come.

Don't try to make me look like a primadonna. If this is only me or I'm in a vast minority then this won't happen no matter how much I want it. I don't try to change your gameplay, do I?

Okay, your arguments are going nowhere. Rebuttal after rebuttal, you listen to nothing. You keep using the same core structure to your sentence where you say "I'm not affecting your gameplay no?". You have yet to answer in a logical way once, you dodge the questions, and keep ramming your ideas even after they were proven not to work. Your arguments are not progressing logically, instead, you just repeat yourself over and over. You are trying to impose your vision of the game to other people because /you/ want it that way and /you/ want /your/ things to be cleared out so no one cheats on /you/. I'm debating with a rock, and this is going nowhere. Knowing when to take out is just as essential as knowing how to structure an argumentation, so as I see this is useless, I'm out. I don't see the point of continuing this debate. Knowing your reactions, you will probably think I'm cowering out. Free to you, I really don't care.

But before, know this: try letting other ideas in. When in a debate like this, the goal isn't to bash your ideas in other people's face, but rather to consider all the ideas people give, and all the arguments, and try to figure out which make the most sense. This has nothing to do with "faith in humanity", we're on a forum, not a international debate on the use of the nuclear weapon and I'm not saying "I promise not to bomb you okay". If you don't trust that people will do as they say, how are you even going into challenges now? This makes no sense, your arguments are running in circles.

So to this, I will excuse myself before a moderator comes over to close this thread as it slowly drifts into madness and goes on to personal insults.

Have a nice evening everyone.

Edited July 11, 2013 by stupid_chris
typos

[Qumefox]

But why does this affect you? What will it change to you if people do that?

You didn't answer my question.

because they "CHOSE" too, all the point needed! it would be your "CHOICE" whether or not to use mods/hyperediting, simply "CHOOSE" not too, why disable the feature when you can do it yourself?

So, they have two choices of game modes, which they're free to choose which they want to play any time they want. One allows anyone to do anything with no limits or restrictions, the other designed to have restrictions to force people to overcome challenges.. Please explain to me WHY they would choose to turn the challenge into the same thing as the no limits sandbox... instead of just playing the sandbox?

I already know the answer.. People want someone to tell them cheating and making things easy is ok and pat them on the back.

It's not like career mode is going to remove the sandbox after all.

If the career mode challenge was to get part X in orbit using part's Q, Y and Z.. and you just hyperedit part X into orbit instead.. please explain to me what exactly you accomplished?

[SleepyWacKo]

I think we are arguing about fundamentals. If any form of altering Career mode is allowed, why to even waste time in developing career mode. I started my argument thinking that you support it in general.

why develop career mode if you are just going to let it be modded? well for one it would provide a structured set of goals to accomplish we don't currently have, regardless of the way they are accomplished the fun would be simply doing it!, also there would be some realistic cares you would have to tend too, maybe you need to keep to a budget etc. like i stated, some mods people use are not used to make the game easier but to actually make it harder. I think you are assuming most people use mods to cheat when for alot of us it is the other way around. We use mods to add difficulty and features such as deadly reentry, FAR, Remote Tech, Kethane etc. what is wrong with making career mode harder if one wants to? yes some may cheat but that is their perogative and choice to do!

also maybe one wants to mod career mode itself to be a more realistic approach, i'm pretty sure the dev version of this is going to be a little gamey rather than challenging!

Edited July 11, 2013 by SleepyWacKo

[DChurchill]

I'll counter this with.. if they want to do this, what's the point of them even playing in career mode in the first place? Why not just stick with sandbox mode?

The 'career mode should be sandbox where nothing matters' argument makes zero sense to me since players who don't want limits can just stick with playing in the sandbox.

And so can you. Stop telling people they're playing the game wrong and not having fun the right way. Don't like mods? Don't use them. Want limits? Impose them on yourself.

The operative phrase in your post is: "makes zero sense to me." The point is whatever I want to make it and I don't need you to tell me what it is.

People want someone to tell them cheating and making things easy is ok and pat them on the back.

Utter hogwash.

[SleepyWacKo]

You didn't answer my question.

So, they have two choices of game modes, which they're free to choose which they want to play any time they want. One allows anyone to do anything with no limits or restrictions, the other designed to have restrictions to force people to overcome challenges.. Please explain to me WHY they would choose to turn the challenge into the same thing as the no limits sandbox... instead of just playing the sandbox?

I already know the answer.. People want someone to tell them cheating and making things easy is ok and pat them on the back.

It's not like career mode is going to remove the sandbox after all.

If the career mode challenge was to get part X in orbit using part's Q, Y and Z.. and you just hyperedit part X into orbit instead.. please explain to me what exactly you accomplished?

see post #89, already answered

[fatfluffycat]

Its not like anyone is forcing you to use mods, don't want them? Don't use them.

[Qumefox]

All I see are people who want to be told cheating is ok so they can feel good about themselves for avoiding challenges. If the sandbox was being removed, you'd have an argument, but since it's not, you don't.

Is this harsh? Yes. Will people agree with me? Not likely considering how many use OP mods. But am I calling it like I see it? Again. Yes.

[DChurchill]

Cheating who? It's a single player game.

[Ski]

why develop career mode if you are just going to let it be modded? well for one it would provide a structured set of goals to accomplish we don't currently have, regardless of the way they are accomplished the fun would be simply doing it!, also there would be some realistic cares you would have to tend too, maybe you need to keep to a budget etc. like i stated, some mods people use are not used to make the game easier but to actually make it harder. I think you are assuming most people use mods to cheat when for alot of us it is the other way around. We use mods to add difficulty and features such as deadly reentry, FAR, Remote Tech, Kethane etc. what is wrong with making career mode harder if one wants to? yes some may cheat but that is their perogative and choice to do!

I love mods, I used kethane a lot.

What do you mean by "structured"? A list of challenges with some mission briefing text and maybe a picture? You could do that yourself. Maybe instead of career mode we develop mission focused website and just do it this way. Won't take away much of devs time.

[JonhyBee]

My personal opinion is that career being vanilla make a lot more sense. You can mod it if you want but it comes down to cheating on your own single player game, it is not balanced anymore to give you an experience on which you can compare design/maneuvering prowess with other Kerbals. I am not against it in any way if some people feel the need to do it, but for me the career mode will be about balance and the trill of learning to put something into orbit using stock parts only, then gradually teach yourself to explore the Sol system. I am still amazed at how much of a rewarding experience this game has been so far, I have just figured out how to do a gravity assist (something I should have know from my kinematics class in my bachelor.

Tho I should add that some mods are getting very nice in terms of keeping the game balanced while adding fun content.

Edited July 11, 2013 by JonhyBee

[SleepyWacKo]

All I see are people who want to be told cheating is ok so they can feel good about themselves for avoiding challenges. If the sandbox was being removed, you'd have an argument, but since it's not, you don't.

Is this harsh? Yes. Will people agree with me? Not likely considering how many use OP mods. But am I calling it like I see it? Again. Yes.

all i see is people with closed minds hence that fact you have never acknowledged the fact that mods can make a game harder and that is some of the reasons why one mods a game. how is that cheating in fact wouldn't that mean they have more of a challenge than you do?

cheating may happen but why does it matter in the context of KSP being a single player game? you act as this is some sort of competition sport game

[Ski]

Okay, your arguments are going nowhere. Rebuttal after rebuttal, you listen to nothing. You keep using the same core structure to your sentence where you say "I'm not affecting your gameplay no?". You have yet to answer in a logical way once, you dodge the questions, and keep ramming your ideas even after they were proven not to work. Your arguments are not progressing logically, instead, you just repeat yourself over and over. You are trying to impose your vision of the game to other people because /you/ want it that way and /you/ want /your/ things to be cleared out so no one cheats on /you/. I'm debating with a rock, and this is going nowhere. Knowing when to take out is just as essential as knowing how to structure an argumentation, so as I see this is useless, I'm out. I don't see the point of continuing this debate. Knowing your reactions, you will probably think I'm cowering out. Free to you, I really don't care.

But before, know this: try letting other ideas in. When in a debate like this, the goal isn't to bash your ideas in other people's face, but rather to consider all the ideas people give, and all the arguments, and try to figure out which make the most sense. This has nothing to do with "faith in humanity", we're on a forum, not a international debate on the use of the nuclear weapon and I'm not saying "I promise not to bomb you okay". If you don't trust that people will do as they say, how are you even going into challenges now? This makes no sense, your arguments are running in circles.

So to this, I will excuse myself before a moderator comes over to close this thread as it slowly drifts into madness and goes on to personal insults.

Have a nice evening everyone.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I feel the contrary: I saw your point of view very interesting while you were doing the "bashing" of some people's ideas. Which idea did I bash?

I want to make game more widely appealing at release without touching the sandbox "play any way you want" soul. Sorry that this doesn't break through you.

[longcat]

I already know the answer.. People want someone to tell them cheating and making things easy is ok and pat them on the back.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that an unhealthy amount of your self esteem is based on being good at a single player video game.

[Ski]

Its not like anyone is forcing you to use mods, don't want them? Don't use them.

We also don't need career mode. Waste of development time.