Career Mode and Mods

[DChurchill]

It always surprises me the strength of feeling around whether to allow mods or not. The appeal is that it opens the game up for all different types of people to customise the experience of the game to suit them, and given that its not multiplayer, what difference does that make really? It keeps the game alive and encourages creativity. Some of the mods I have seen actually add aspects that increase the difficulty of the game or make it more realistic, and if you don't like any of these things, then you don't have to have them. This makes the game appeal to a much wider audience which can be only good for future developments that we can all enjoy

This. A thousand times this.

[Noticeably FAT]

Besides, half of KSP IS flying your rocket, and testing your engineering skills. You shouldn't need an autopilot to enjoy the game.

But the other half isn't, and what if that's the half you enjoy?

[OtherDalfite]

But the other half isn't, and what if that's the half you enjoy?

They are both intertwined. You have to build something capable of going where you need it to go, but it also needs to be able to piloted. Why would KSP be given the ability to control rockets if people are just going to punch in some numbers, hit "Execute" and watch it? Where is the fun in that? Building is hardly a challenge, since we have an unlimited budget. When you take out the flying aspect of the game, it becomes nothing more than a movie that dynamically renders.

[DChurchill]

Where is the fun in that?

Stop telling people they're having fun wrong.

[OtherDalfite]

Stop telling people they're having fun wrong.

I'm not. I'm simply stating my opinion on something. Also, please stop trying to turn this into an argument-oriented thread, as it will get locked fairly fast. So far it's been kept pretty civil and the mods have allowed it to stay open.

Anyways, do you have anything to add as to why mods should be allowed in career mode? Career mode is designed to be a competitive/difficult mode of the game. Why allow something that makes the game ridiculously simple? It's easy enough as it is with maneuver nodes and the orbital map display.

[DChurchill]

I'm not. I'm simply stating my opinion on something. Also, please stop trying to turn this into an argument-oriented thread, as it will get locked fairly fast. So far it's been kept pretty civil and the mods have allowed it to stay open.

You are. And of course it's your opinion. But you're trying to force your opinion of fun on someone else by denying the use of mods in career mode. And the OP itself invites argument. That's why this is 13 pages long.

No one as yet has answered the question of: How does allowing mods in career mode in any way affect your experience?

[OtherDalfite]

No one as yet has answered the question of: How does allowing mods in career mode in any way affect your experience?

Then I will.

Some mods (ie: RemoteTech and Deadly Reentry) do make the game harder. I can understand why those may want to be added. Mods like NovaPunch, KW, Mechjeb only make the game easier for you. For sandbox, fine, do whatever you like. After all, it's the freeplay mode. Take this for instance: You're playing a racing game, and someone mods in a tool that drives your car for you. What's the point of the game anymore?

I'm by no means trying to force a stock only idea over people. Just in career mode so everyone is on the same playing field. Also, I'm pretty sure the OP didn't mean to inspire arguing, as he was simply asking a question.

[DChurchill]

Then I will.

Some mods (ie: RemoteTech and Deadly Reentry) do make the game harder. I can understand why those may want to be added. Mods like NovaPunch, KW, Mechjeb only make the game easier for you. For sandbox, fine, do whatever you like. After all, it's the freeplay mode. Take this for instance: You're playing a racing game, and someone mods in a tool that drives your car for you. What's the point of the game anymore?

I'm by no means trying to force a stock only idea over people. Just in career mode so everyone is on the same playing field. Also, I'm pretty sure the OP didn't mean to inspire arguing, as he was simply asking a question.

Again, you're imposing your idea of fun on someone else in a single player game. You're telling them what they think should be fun and that anything else is somehow cheating or wrong. And you didn't answer the question.

Again, How does someone else using a mod in career mode affect your game?

[fatfluffycat]

Then I will.

Some mods (ie: RemoteTech and Deadly Reentry) do make the game harder. I can understand why those may want to be added. Mods like NovaPunch, KW, Mechjeb only make the game easier for you. For sandbox, fine, do whatever you like. After all, it's the freeplay mode. Take this for instance: You're playing a racing game, and someone mods in a tool that drives your car for you. What's the point of the game anymore?

I'm by no means trying to force a stock only idea over people. Just in career mode so everyone is on the same playing field. Also, I'm pretty sure the OP didn't mean to inspire arguing, as he was simply asking a question.

Same playing field? Its a single player game!

[Coneshot]

As long as we aren't comparing achievements in career mode side by side, with those with mods and those without, then who cares?

[Feldynn]

If Squad chooses to allow mod usage in Career mode (either right away or unlock them for use after a certain progression point is reached) it's ultimately their choice and I'll just be happy to have a Career mode in the first place . I only have one mod right now (the new Procedural Fairings one) and I'd likely run through the career using just stock parts / features anyway because that's just me, but I do kind of hope they do allow mods because it's easier for folks like me to simply not use them than it is for those that want them but can't use them.

Something else to consider too is that there are still many features that we don't have in the game yet, by the time we get a full blown Career Mode it may turn out that some of the features provided by mods will actually be built into the base game in some way or another which may help reduce the need for some mods or at least soften the blow a bit if Squad does decide that Career Mode is "vanilla" only. As an example perhaps some sort of rudimentary "Autopilot" may become a base game feature performed by one of the Kerbals in the rocket or perhaps by the navigation computer in a probe body, other things too like resource collection and scanning planets with satellites / probes and many other features currently provided by mods may get integrated into the base game as well in some shape or form.

[OtherDalfite]

Again, you're imposing your idea of fun on someone else in a single player game. You're telling them what they think should be fun and that anything else is somehow cheating or wrong. And you didn't answer the question.

Again, How does someone else using a mod in career mode affect your game?

It doesn't affect my game at all. I'm not implying that is a problem. For the masses that play stock, putting huge bases up/building motherships is more complicated without an autopilot or fuel tanks that are twice as good as the stock ones. It doesn't really matter that it's a single player game, as soon as people publish their achievements, it may as well be a multiplayer game. Remember the KSP "Build, Fly, Dream" trailer? Where is the "fly" if it's not a challenge?

[sal_vager]

DChurchill and others here are right, no one can decide what makes KSP fun for other players, if others want to use powerful addon engines or just cruise the system with infinite fuel than that is up to them.

Some of us like simulators, others like shootemups, most of us like both but at different times, the whole point is to have fun

[fatfluffycat]

It doesn't affect my game at all. I'm not implying that is a problem. For the masses that play stock, putting huge bases up/building motherships is more complicated without an autopilot or fuel tanks that are twice as good as the stock ones. It doesn't really matter that it's a single player game, as soon as people publish their achievements, it may as well be a multiplayer game. Remember the KSP "Build, Fly, Dream" trailer? Where is the "fly" if it's not a challenge?

Not all mods make the game easier, mods like RemoteTech and deadly re-entry make the game a lot more realistic and challenging

[DChurchill]

DChurchill and others here are right, no one can decide what makes KSP fun for other players, if others want to use powerful addon engines or just cruise the system with infinite fuel than that is up to them.

Some of us like simulators, others like shootemups, most of us like both but at different times, the whole point is to have fun

Thank you, Sal.

[OtherDalfite]

If others want to use powerful addon engines or just cruise the system with infinite fuel than that is up to them.

This is perfectly fine. I'm just trying to keep career mode an actual challenge. Mods are not a bad thing, they are probably one of the driving forces behind KSP which brought it to this stage in popularity. I just don't like the "challenge" mode of KSP to be made easy by the use of mods.

Everybody does have there own idea of fun, and that's perfectly fine. Career mode however, in my opinion, should be difficult. Without mods, we all are given the same parts, with each possibility and success in the game is left entirely up to the player.

[fatfluffycat]

This is perfectly fine. I'm just trying to keep career mode an actual challenge. Mods are not a bad thing, they are probably one of the driving forces behind KSP which brought it to this stage in popularity. I just don't like the "challenge" mode of KSP to be made easy by the use of mods.

Everybody does have there own idea of fun, and that's perfectly fine. Career mode however, in my opinion, should be difficult. Without mods, we all are given the same parts, with each possibility and success in the game is left entirely up to the player.

Why should you care about how I play the game, its a single player game, you shouldn't care if someone else uses mods...

[jwenting]

ASAS doesn't fly your ship for you, as it only maintains a heading. I never said don't allow mods, just don't allow them in career mode. Besides, half of KSP IS flying your rocket, and testing your engineering skills. You shouldn't need an autopilot to enjoy the game.

and what do you care how others play KSP?

If you don't want mods, don't use them. Don't try to force others to nerf their experience by forcing them to comply with your narrowminded idea of how things should work.

[jwenting]

Why should you care about how I play the game, its a single player game, you shouldn't care if someone else uses mods...

there's a control freak born every day...

Kid probably wants some sort of online highscore system as well, and is afraid that others will have a higher score than him by "cheating".

[OtherDalfite]

there's a control freak born every day...

Kid probably wants some sort of online highscore system as well, and is afraid that others will have a higher score than him by "cheating".

I don't think namecalling and mudslinging is helping with the discussion at all. I've said numerous times that I'm fine with mods and the game and that they are a great thing. I'm just saying that career mode should be kept stock in my opinion. It's as simple as just playing sandbox if you want mods.

[Noticeably FAT]

They are both intertwined. You have to build something capable of going where you need it to go, but it also needs to be able to piloted. Why would KSP be given the ability to control rockets if people are just going to punch in some numbers, hit "Execute" and watch it? Where is the fun in that? Building is hardly a challenge, since we have an unlimited budget. When you take out the flying aspect of the game, it becomes nothing more than a movie that dynamically renders.

Where's the fun in too much repetition? I haven't "flown" a single one of my Mun base components. I build them, slap a lifter under them, then say "MechJeb, take me to the Mun!". Then I let MJ do a major deorbit burn, and I take the part in for a landing and then go tooling around on the surface. Building is fun*, and is indeed a challenge* (assuming you want things to actually work). Landing is fun*. Building stations/bases is fun*. Getting a ship into orbit? Been there, done that. Other than some interesting wobbles, it's the same thing, over and over. That's what robots are for, taking over the mundane, repetitious tasks.

*Fun for me. Do what you want.

[OtherDalfite]

Where's the fun in too much repetition? I haven't "flown" a single one of my Mun base components. I build them, slap a lifter under them, then say "MechJeb, take me to the Mun!". Then I let MJ do a major deorbit burn, and I take the part in for a landing and then go tooling around on the surface. Building is fun*, and is indeed a challenge* (assuming you want things to actually work). Landing is fun*. Building stations/bases is fun*. Getting a ship into orbit? Been there, done that. Other than some interesting wobbles, it's the same thing, over and over. That's what robots are for, taking over the mundane, repetitious tasks.

*Fun for me. Do what you want.

I agree that getting to orbit can occasionally get boring. But what if you are launching some insanely large craft, which requires careful human input? That is where the fly part comes in, and where you are needed. Take a look at GigglePlex's crafts, there is no way that Mechjeb could fly them. That's the spirit of KSP. Creating the impossible and making it do what you like.

[DChurchill]

I think we can safely say that this has turned into another MechJeb debate, even though it's ostensibly about mods in general. For me however, the mod itself makes no difference whatever. It makes the game harder or easier, whatever makes you happy is fine with me. That being said, and this is my opinion, the idea of manually flying a rocket and plotting trajectories and whatever is absurd. Guidance computers have been a part of spaceflight since the V-2. To me, career mode should be a simulation of a space program and I doubt anyone is going to let Jeb fly by hand when a guidance computer is available. But, you can play in any way you like. I'm gonna use MechJeb. Not for everything; docking is fun. Landing is fun. Launching the same booster for the 50th time is not.

[OtherDalfite]

Launching the same booster for the 50th time is not.

And I'm imposing my idea of fun on people? You seem to be a bit hypocritical in your response. Also, a LOT of manned spaceflight has been done by hand piloting a craft. Nobody is going to be able to steer a real rocket into orbit in the real world, that's insane. In KSP, we don't have to worry about millions of dollars going up in flames or exploding. We don't have to worry about people dying and having to tell their families what happened to them. Honestly I don't care if you or anyone uses mechjeb, I just want it to stay out of career mode, as that is supposed to be the limited/hard mode of KSP.

[fatfluffycat]

And I'm imposing my idea of fun on people? You seem to be a bit hypocritical in your response. Also, a LOT of manned spaceflight has been done by hand piloting a craft. Nobody is going to be able to steer a real rocket into orbit in the real world, that's insane. In KSP, we don't have to worry about millions of dollars going up in flames or exploding. We don't have to worry about people dying and having to tell their families what happened to them. Honestly I don't care if you or anyone uses mechjeb, I just want it to stay out of career mode, as that is supposed to be the limited/hard mode of KSP.

Not every single mod makes the game easier, and its not fun playing with toy-like stock parts.