Why the Hate Towards Mods

[AlamoVampire]

"You dont deserve to wear this uniform, tank!" (nerd-points for recognizing the reference)

if memory serves me, Space Above and Beyond.

[KerbMav]

if memory serves me, Space Above and Beyond.

May it rest in peace in its honorary place side by side with Firefly.

[magnemoe]

You sir in that ONE LINE could not be any further away from correct without coming back around. I never could pull off a successful rendezvous and docking no matter how hard I tried. I always ended up either careening passed my target, into it or getting to 10 meters to station keep before completely exhausting every single shred of fuel in the chase vehicle only to then switch vehicles to then screw up again to cause the now 100% adrift vehicle to spin beyond capture lock in docking. Mechjeb taught me to dock proper like. And since I have linked twice now that Squad has no intention of giving us autopilot or any function mechjeb gives us, it is a vital component like it or not.

The post above me is also excellent in its point and equally true in that mechjeb gives us information vital to success with delta V and other information. But NASA uses the same info and more than mechjeb gives us, guess they are lazy too right?

Mechjeb does one thing I'm unable to do myself, it's the adjust closest encounter to target who put the Pe during the Jool intercept at 120km right outside Kerbin SOI.

Now part of this is that the maneuverer nodes does not show closest distance to target if you are out of plane and often you do not need be in the plane of the target for the intercept, yes its possible to do but hard.

On the other hand I tend to do most long burns with mechjeb now as the asas function is gone ships tend to drift of path and require constant control during long burns.

For challenges, they are often made to be hard, not realistic, if you wanted to launch oversizes loads to orbit you would use larger engines not 50 mainsails.

For getting off Eve you would use balloons or electrical propellers to get out of the thick atmosphere.

yes people has managed to get over 500 ton to orbit stock and off Eve with an 6 ton lander so its not really needed but it makes more sense.

[Seeker89]

I use all types of mods. from hyperedit to mechjeb. this game is suppose to be fun and those mods make them fun. I did dock by myself the first time, I did land myself on mun the first time, but using mechjeb helps lot and It's nice to let the computer do the work.

Plus mechjeb allows me to leave the computer for a few minutes, take a small walk, send the dogs outside and enjoy a bit of weather(and bathroom runs). It's a single player game and I enjoy it that way.

As for content mods(part mods), this is not my first modded game, and it's one of the first things I look for in a game.

That said. I love watching videos of other people landing without mechjeb, etc.

[Flixxbeatz]

Well blame the people who think they are superior just because they don't use mods (part add-ons and plugins alike).

Basically we are beating "this horse" to atoms (we've beaten "this horse" to ashes before already) now here...

[AlamoVampire]

Mechjeb does one thing I'm unable to do myself, it's the adjust closest encounter to target who put the Pe during the Jool intercept at 120km right outside Kerbin SOI.

Now part of this is that the maneuverer nodes does not show closest distance to target if you are out of plane and often you do not need be in the plane of the target for the intercept, yes its possible to do but hard.

On the other hand I tend to do most long burns with mechjeb now as the asas function is gone ships tend to drift of path and require constant control during long burns.

For challenges, they are often made to be hard, not realistic, if you wanted to launch oversizes loads to orbit you would use larger engines not 50 mainsails.

For getting off Eve you would use balloons or electrical propellers to get out of the thick atmosphere.

yes people has managed to get over 500 ton to orbit stock and off Eve with an 6 ton lander so its not really needed but it makes more sense.

i have to slap on as many mainsails as I can since I do not have any larger engines. have not gotten off my butt to get nova punch lol

[AlamoVampire]

Well blame the people who think they are superior just because they don't use mods (part add-ons and plugins alike).

Basically we are beating "this horse" to atoms (we've beaten "this horse" to ashes before already) now here...

at some point we will beat the atoms so hard we generate fusion!

[BubbaWilkins]

It's a basic aspect of human nature to compare one's abilities and measure one's accomplishments against those of their fellow man (woman). This is one of the primary ways in which we distinguish ourselves from each other. To conquer a challenge in and of itself can personally satisfying for many, but the true measure of that accomplishment far more depends on the difficulty of the task and the rarity in which it is completed. Beyond that, you get into a whole host of personality traits which govern our interactions with one another. There will be those that achieve greatness and those that wallow in mediocrity. Those that seek attention and others content in the absence of same.

Suffice it to say that we should strive to behave as follows:

[wasmic]

I also use a lot of mods. I use mechjeb, NovaPunch, KW, ANVIL, KAS, Infernal Robotics, and much more. I don't use hyperedit, but I'm okay with other people doing it. I do every single docking myself - and the first time I tried to dock, it was REALLY hard. I have my own principles for using mechjeb - for one, I never use the maneuver planner, as it takes away from MY fun. That doesn't mean that I despise people who use it - I just won't be as impressed by someone who uses MechJeb to get to Eeloo as one who does it without.

[AlamoVampire]

I also use a lot of mods. I use mechjeb, NovaPunch, KW, ANVIL, KAS, Infernal Robotics, and much more. I don't use hyperedit, but I'm okay with other people doing it. I do every single docking myself - and the first time I tried to dock, it was REALLY hard. I have my own principles for using mechjeb - for one, I never use the maneuver planner, as it takes away from MY fun. That doesn't mean that I despise people who use it - I just won't be as impressed by someone who uses MechJeb to get to Eeloo as one who does it without.

Why Eeloo? Why not say Moho?

[Tiron]

Why Eeloo? Why not say Moho?

Eeloo's really hard to get to period. Not only does it have the most distant orbit, it's fairly highly inclined and not even close to circular. It also has no atmosphere and thus you can't aerobraking to help you get into orbit around it/land on it.

All of this conspires to require an enormous amount of Delta-V. Also a fair amount of thrust: if you're coming in directly from Kerbin, there's going to be quite a large difference in your velocity when you enter its SOI (which is rather surprisingly large if the wiki is to believed). To actually pull into orbit around it is going to take a lot of Delta-V applied fairly quickly.

What this means is that getting to Eeloo is a tremendous engineering challenge. Getting BACK is in some ways even more difficult.

Simply put, there's no place in the Kerbol system harder to get to or back from than Eeloo. Though Moho's not easy, either.

[regex]

Simply put, there's no place in the Kerbol system harder to get to or back from than Eeloo. Though Moho's not easy, either.

This is simply not true. Launch windows for Eeloo vary from 3.5km/s to 4.9km/s, while Moho transfers don't drop below 4km/s and can cost as much as 5.5km/s because the braking delta-V required is so high (easily 3km/s on any given transfer). Braking at Eeloo is much easier because your orbit is already at one of its slowest points, the apoapsis; Moho is the opposite because you're intercepting near your periapsis.

While they're both undoubtedly hard, Moho takes the crown. It also requires a lander with more delta-V, which means your entire vehicle needs to be bigger.

[DChurchill]

Moho is a pain in the a**. Getting slowed down for orbit is just such a dV hog. Never tried a live body, but I have a probe rover there now. The only planets I've put a live Kerbal on are Mun, Minmus, Duna and Dres.

Never tried Eeloo, even with a probe, so I can't compare.

[regex]

Moho is a pain in the a**. Getting slowed down for orbit is just such a dV hog. Never tried a live body, but I have a probe rover there now. The only planets I've put a live Kerbal on are Mun, Minmus, Duna and Dres.

Never tried Eeloo, even with a probe, so I can't compare.

Straying off-topic, but this thread is mainly vitriol so might as well.

Eeloo is a bit harder to hit IMO but once you get there it's pretty easy to slow down since both you and the planet are moving like molasses (at least compared to a Moho transfer). Send a probe there and you'll see what I mean. Of course, you'll launch like five other missions in the time it takes to get there...

Coming back, Eeloo takes more delta-V for braking (see my Moho comment above) but aerocapture is available at Kerbin, so Moho still wins out because you have to claw your way out of Kerbol's gravity well. If you don't use aerocapture they're roughly the same IIRC.

In truth, they're both pretty challenging but I feel that Moho has the edge. When doing a manned-mission to either I would highly suggest you bring a tanker along or install Kethane.

On-topic: Both are very hard to do without some sort of mods to help. I've never done Moho stock, but I have done an Eeloo return trip pure stock (10K delta-V just to be safe).

E: I guess that's not on-topic either...

Edited September 16, 2013 by regex

[AlamoVampire]

Never been to Eeloo, but, having just did a Moho mission, I did it partially stock, I LAUNCHED with Mechjeb, but, chose to go from Kerbin Escape to Moho w/out anything from mechjeb save for some orbital info. Eitherway, Moho = not easy to get to, easy to leave though lol

[regex]

Never been to Eeloo, but, having just did a Moho mission, I did it partially stock, I LAUNCHED with Mechjeb, but, chose to go from Kerbin Escape to Moho w/out anything from mechjeb save for some orbital info. Eitherway, Moho = not easy to get to, easy to leave though lol

I'm curious why people always have to qualify just what they use MechJeb for during a mission?

For interplanetary stuff MechJeb is really only good for holding a heading, and the new SAS isn't exactly useful for that purpose so I don't know why people have all this shame over it. Honestly, it's not like it takes a lot of skill to sit in front of your screen for fifteen minutes during a nuclear engine burn and occasionally correct it, might as well let MechJeb do it.

And yeah, Moho's pretty damn tough.

[DChurchill]

I'm curious why people always have to qualify just what they use MechJeb for during a mission?

To mollify the people who somehow think that using MJ is cheating. "I don't use the auto-pilot!!!!!11!!! I just use the information screens!!!!! Honest!!!!! Plz don't call me cheetar!!!!1111!!" I for one couldn't care less what someone else thinks of what I do in a game, and neither should anyone else. It's your game. It's your time. It's your 20 bones. Play the way you want and forget what anyone else thinks.

The only exception to this is challenges. That's it.

[sparty48]

I would advise a newbie not to get mechjeb, I almost killed my love of the game with it, But if they choose to , I aint gonna stop you.

[AlamoVampire]

I would advise a newbie not to get mechjeb, I almost killed my love of the game with it, But if they choose to , I aint gonna stop you.

I WOULD. It taught me how to do a proper rendezvous and docking. I watched Scott Manley do it countless times, even watched the tutorials and nothing helped. I got mechjeb, because I saw Scott Manley using it for something, and guess what? It was a better teacher than any advice or video ever was. MechJeb is a valuable asset in this game, and considering that they <Squad> have NO INTENTION of giving us an auto-pilot, it very well may become the go to addition for such a glaring vacancy.

Source: http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Planned_features

Bottom of page reads:

NOT HAPPENING:

Steam Achievements

AUTOPILOT SYSTEMS

Weapons or Military Features

Alien Civilizations

Terraforming

Realistically Sized Celestial Bodies

Conversion To A Different Game Engine

Oh, also, those who think Autopilot is cheating scare me, and I hope none are actual real world pilots, because, they use Autopilot for everything, including landing sometimes <yes, autopilot can land in real world>, as does NASA... just saying. As for why I mentioned what I use autopilot for? Why not? I use it as I would a real autopilot, why not be proud of it?

Edited September 24, 2013 by AlamoVampire

[magnemoe]

To mollify the people who somehow think that using MJ is cheating. "I don't use the auto-pilot!!!!!11!!! I just use the information screens!!!!! Honest!!!!! Plz don't call me cheetar!!!!1111!!" I for one couldn't care less what someone else thinks of what I do in a game, and neither should anyone else. It's your game. It's your time. It's your 20 bones. Play the way you want and forget what anyone else thinks.

The only exception to this is challenges. That's it.

Agree here, for an challenge of flying skill like accurate landing mechjeb make it kind of pointless.

On the other hand you have little reason to feel very proud of landing on the Mun with an rocked downloaded from the spaceport and mechjeb.

On the gripping hand

Try doing this without mechjeb: http://imgur.com/a/dahmU#0

Highlights: lander was 1416 ton and 788 parts before the Jool burn, burn took hours real time because of the frame rate. At jool it was docked with a 250 ton ship to refuel.

Takeoff is easy however you don't want to overheat any of your 102 engines but you has to keep it close to have an good enough TWR.

[Guest]

... On the gripping hand...

+100 for the Niven/Pournelle reference!

[Apollo13]

I would advise a newbie not to get mechjeb, I almost killed my love of the game with it, But if they choose to , I aint gonna stop you.

I WOULD advise new players to use MechJeb. I was having such a hard time docking, that I absolutely hated KSP. Yes, I was using Docking Port Alignment Indicator. Yes, I viewed and read a tons of tutorials. Simply put, my execution sucked, for whatever reason.

MechJeb auto-docking is far from perfect. It wastes RCS mono-prop while failing to dock. I found that by using DPAI and toggling auto-dock on about 5% of the time to assist, I enjoyed the game again. This method wastes no mono-prop.

The self-satisfied/self-righteous critics of MJ auto-dock are going to say "Learn to dock. I did on my first try." To those critics, I respond. you play your way and I'll play mine.

Otherwise, I use MJ for planning and information readout, but not executing.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Apollo13

[M.Wolfy]

I WOULD advise new players to use MechJeb. I was having such a hard time docking, that I absolutely hated KSP.

wow...

I'm completly against that, when i acheived first docking it was a breeze after that, I'd just advise them to practice rather than getting used to letting autopilot do it for them.

[DChurchill]

burn took hours real time because of the frame rate.

Sorry, pass, thanks. I'm absolutely not going to spend hours on a burn if I have to babysit it. If there were no MJ option, that burn would not happen. I would simply not do that mission.

That being said, how about people play their own games and stop worrying about how others play? Inevitably, in almost every thread where someone asks a MechJeb question, there will be a "Why don't you learn to do it without MechJeb?" post, which invariably starts an argument. Just don't.

The self-satisfied/self-righteous critics of MJ auto-dock are going to say "Learn to dock. I did on my first try." To those critics, I respond. you play your way and I'll play mine.

I did do it the first time and I don't use the auto-dock because I enjoy docking. But I use MJ for lots of things, so I certainly wouldn't look down on someone else for using whatever feature they want. I don't look down on anyone's play-style for any reason, because it doesn't affect me one iota.

Edited September 24, 2013 by DChurchill

[Monkeh]

The first time I managed to dock it was the simple realisation that I can switch back to 'staging' mode to spin myself around using the torque and THEN edge forward/backwards/side-to-side that paved the way.

Then it was easy mode.

MechJeb or not, whatever makes the game fun, just as Apollo13 says. Each to their own innit. I found the challenge of working it out fun. Doesn't mean I didn't rage quit a few times before I got there.