Are "science points" too generic? Does the game become a grind?

[AlamoVampire]

well, from what is said in THIS video here:

seems some of the lucky testers they have for .22 including Scott himself it seems, have found ways to MAX the tree in like 3-4 FLIGHTS.... Somethings gotta be done, but HarvesteR made mention of fixing some of the exploits in the video, so, who knows yet?

but, to be honest? it IS a game first, and he <harvester> does say he wants this game to be easy on the new players...

[ngianoplus]

This is the first implementation of the tech tree/career mode and I have nothing to complain about until I play the update. That being said, I still won't complain until I hear what SQUAD says they are going to do to fix it. No I am not a fanboy, I am just as upset that updated aerodynamics, enhanced IVA, and resources aren't in yet, but patience has helped me along the way.

The one thing I do not want to see is completion of the tech tree in 3-4 flights, that is ridiculous.

[boomerdog2000]

Scott managed to max the tech tree in 3-4 flights because he was talking about doing a Munar and Minmus flyby using tier 0 parts for his first launch. You also have to take into account that the player will be limited by cost as well. This will be significantly more difficult once funding is implemented.

[allmhuran]

seems some of the lucky testers they have for .22 including Scott himself it seems, have found ways to MAX the tree in like 3-4 FLIGHTS

Yeah. When I saw...

- How it worked

- How much science money you got for doing various things

- How much science money new nodes cost to unlock

... I immediately started to try to figure out how quickly I could unlock everything. And I'm certain, *certain*, that this is exactly what everyone else will do as well. Because this has been what people have done in MMOs for 10 years.

This is the very definition of grinding. In which case - what's the point? Is this system really designed to provide a limited sandbox up front and then have players grind their way to "full sandbox" mode as fast as possible? As poster #2 said... just go play sandbox mode!

Edited October 14, 2013 by allmhuran

[Specialist290]

Yeah. When I saw...

- How it worked

- How much science money you got for doing various things

- How much science money new nodes cost to unlock

... I immediately started to try to figure out how quickly I could unlock everything. And I'm certain, *certain*, that this is exactly what everyone else will do as well. Because this has been what people have done in MMOs for 10 years.

This is the very definition of grinding. In which case - what's the point? Is this system really designed to provide a limited sandbox up front and then have players grind their way to "full sandbox" mode as fast as possible? As poster #2 said... just go play sandbox mode!

I've said it before elsewhere, but I'll say it again now: I'm certain that, further on down the line, a lot of the "grindy" or "cheaty" aspects of metagaming the research system are going to be mitigated once we have an actual economic system in place that limits the number and quality of parts we can use on one rocket.

Yes, a lot of experienced top-tier players are probably going to try to find ways to break the system wide open, but that's really no different from how some people play every other game out there, video / computer or otherwise.

[allmhuran]

Actually, watching that interview video it sounds like Felipe does not consider the tech tree to be a feature for more experienced players. Quote:

"That's actually not really the point of the R&D system. [...] If you're an elite player you already know all the parts so you're likely just wanting to get through the tree as fast as you can to get to the cool stuff".

Then later:

"Give players a system that gradually introduces the game to them".

The tech tree sounds like a tutorial system. It seems, based on that quote, that in Felipe's mind experienced players might as well just stick to sandbox.

I was hoping that it was something that would give you reasons to do things *after* you learned the basics.

Edited October 14, 2013 by allmhuran

[Person012345]

While this is a fairly obvious way to implement such a feature, I worry that it turns "science" into "economics". Players will be motivated to find the most efficient way to earn science points quickly, regardless of what that way entails. If anyone has ever played an MMO (I confess I played WoW for a few months) you'll know the drill: find some mechanism that quickly accrues XP, and then farm the ever-loving !%&@ out of that. It's not much fun, but it gets you "maxxed out" rapidly.

Or, just don't do that. Problem solved. If you want to exploit the game you can unlock everything in 3 flights. Or, you could just go ahead and not, and then you can experience it as it was meant.

[allmhuran]

I'm not sure why you think that would be an "exploit". The game provides you with a challenge: earn money (I'm not even going to call it science, money is a *much* more accurate way to think about this) to unlock new parts. I therefore need to earn a lot of money. What would you do instead? Launch 5 rockets where 1 would suffice? Why? When you say "just don't do that", what do you propose is the alternative?

In any case, it seems I was misguided in my criticism right from the start. The R&D system is not designed as "new and interesting content", it is basically a tutorial system. As I mentioned above, felipe essentially states outright that experienced players might as well just stick to sandbox, because the R&D system is not for them.

[AlamoVampire]

the end all be all of all this: we just have to WAIT AND SEE. those who are playing .22 are very likely bound by a silence order to NOT say anything about this, even if we are all just blithering away in the wrong direction and they can point us true. Look, we are seeing the smallest look into this right now, so, we are getting worked up over what exactly? Maybe 1/100th of what we NEED to know? lets all step back and relax and wait and see. I for one cannot wait for .22 because it will crack this game open a bit for me. sure I can send missions to where ever right now, but, once I get science? I get a new reason to revisit old haunts and find new ones!

if harvester is saying R&D is not for us veterans, then why the hell are we STILL playing the game once we get R&D? I think HarvesteR needs to re-assess that one.

[allmhuran]

sure I can send missions to where ever right now, but, once I get science? I get a new reason to revisit old haunts and find new ones!

Yeah, that's the thing though... you don't. At least not with the version of the tech tree we are seeing in 0.22. There's no reason to go to Laythe to collect science, you can collect all the science you need to unlock everything right there on Kerbin.

It's possible this may change, sure. But we have had no indication that it will, all evidence suggests that the tech tree is specifically conceived of as a tutorial system designed to more gradually introduce new players to the parts and their uses.

[AlamoVampire]

[quote name=allmhuran;695778

It's possible this may change' date=' sure. But we have had no indication that it will, all evidence suggests that the tech tree is specifically conceived of as a tutorial system designed to more gradually introduce new players to the parts and their uses.

and no indication it will NOT change. look. this game is in Alpha mode right now. we have no idea where this game will be once we see version 1.00 FULL RELEASE. Until then, we have a few choices:

1. give up now and walk away.

2. have faith that this will ALL be worth while.

3. ignore 1 and 2 and complain some more.

[allmhuran]

A couple of things:

The game is not in alpha. The concept of alpha, beta, final, etc, don't really make much sense these days, with fast internet, continuous updates and developers being connected with consumers. Yes, for some of the AAA, giant evil corporation style titles the model might still apply. But not for games like KSP. If you read up on the history of the game, way back at the start it was possible that any given release could have been the last. I'm sure that yes, at some point Squad will label a release as "v1.0", but that differentiation will be purely nominal.

Secondly, this is the forum for suggestion and development discussion. if you believe everyone should keep their mouth shut and wait, perhaps you should suggest that this forum be removed - except oh bugger, that would also be a suggestion and against your philosophy.

[ManTrelk]

I personally don't think science should be involved with R&D at all. Taking soil samples doesn't improve your ability to make rockets - R&D is something you pay engineers to do. I'd rather see science implemented as something you 'have to do' in the final game, such that in order to maintain a specific budget (I'm talking money here) you'd have to do a certain amount of science in a specific time. This is how a real space program works - Government gives the program money, expecting a certain yield of scientific progress. The government doesn't care about how the space program achieves that, and the program is free to allocate money to R&D as they see fit.

[AlamoVampire]

i get the feeling you disagree with me allmhuran.

this game is in fact in an alpha state. I cannot find where the devs themselves state this, but, they said it first. then, there is the fact, that, this game is in development, and that by itself means we MUST wait to see what the next patch or release or what ever you wish to call the next installment of the game to see what it is we will get. to bicker and moan and complain about things that we know NOTHING of right now is fruitless.

we can either get into a lather right now and argue about things we have no full grasp on, and prove we are not worthy of this game, OR, we can be adults, sit back and wait, and keep encouraging SQUAD to make a quality game in how ever many steps they must to make sure we get a final product that is 100%.

Do you have that kind of patience Allmhuran? I do.

[Nobody]

Yes this first iteration of career mode,to players, is little more of a tutorial to help inexperienced players figure out what they are doing.

Something that you might not see happening in it is that it also helps the developers by laying the ground work for future expansions and lets them figure out how to connect systems as they are added.

Don't forget there are a lot of planned features that would be critical for a proper career mode that have not been implemented yet which features of this rough draft link to. For example getting Kerbals able to take readings and drill ground samples would be needed for finding resource deposits for harvesting. I would expect 'science' to become more specific and useful as features are added. If the current state of Career mode isn't to your liking then stick with sand box until it's bare bones get fleshed out some.

Edited October 14, 2013 by Nobody

[BostLabs]

snip - however I agree with what you said -

Yes, a lot of experienced top-tier players are probably going to try to find ways to break the system wide open, but that's really no different from how some people play every other game out there, video / computer or otherwise.

Yup! And that is the advantage of Alpha. They'll break it, harp/brag/complain about it. Squad gets an insight they didn't have before. Squad improves it later on.

Alpha is just a hair above Dev testing. The fact that the game is as stable as it is for us to play it says a lot for Squad's Q/A. Yes there are things like IVA not finished and stuff like that. They will come back to it and finalize it before Beta testing.

In Beta, all features will be complete and then testing starts. Beta is certainly not bug free (in fact, no bit of software can ever hold that title, no matter how intensive the testing), but all of the final features are there. Tweaking and adjusting will occur, but no new features will be inserted (at least, that is how Beta is supposed to work).

Shoot, in my line of work, I concentrate on getting my software to work correctly. It looks very, very plain during that time. Once I get it to working they way I want it/My clients want it, then I start making it look pretty. My clients usually only get screen shots or report samples. Rarely do I let them play with it while I'm still working on features. We have a plan and I follow it. If they should change their mind, I stop working until we have a new plan. I make them very much aware that the timeline I gave them no longer applies with the new plan and a new timeline is created. If they have a hard deadline, then they have some decisions to make. Or I try to find more resources to throw at it (which means more costs to the client).

Squad does not have a deadline that we know of. They may have an internal deadline, but I'm pretty sure it is flexible and not set in stone. Stuff like IVA internals is more cosmetic than functional. Cosmetic items are usually polished up before the software goes to Beta.

Early access is great for us as we get to play the game before it is finished. We get to have limited input about the game. Squad doesn't necessarily have to listen to our input, but we know they do (which is nice). Squad has a plan, we just get to see a bit of it at a time. We certainly do not have the big picture. An example is resources. They changed course on that a while back. Perhaps they decided that resources depends on the tech tree. So they backed off on that to focus on the tech tree first. All of that is guess work on my part. Please do not take it as the gospel.

I don't have the big picture either.

Edited October 14, 2013 by BostLabs

[colmo]

I'm not fretting. The tech tree is apparently very easily modded, so the mods that have focussed upon adding huge layers of resources can incorporate many layers of 'science' also. The only requirement is that 'science' can be differentiated into the different fields - geology, aerospace, astronomy etc.

[Person012345]

I'm not sure why you think that would be an "exploit". The game provides you with a challenge: earn money (I'm not even going to call it science, money is a *much* more accurate way to think about this) to unlock new parts. I therefore need to earn a lot of money. What would you do instead? Launch 5 rockets where 1 would suffice? Why? When you say "just don't do that", what do you propose is the alternative?

In any case, it seems I was misguided in my criticism right from the start. The R&D system is not designed as "new and interesting content", it is basically a tutorial system. As I mentioned above, felipe essentially states outright that experienced players might as well just stick to sandbox, because the R&D system is not for them.

No, he says that he expects R&D won't be "for them", essentially. "Why" would I do that? Because I want to play the game, not beat it. If your objective is to beat the game then great, you can beat the R&D system in 3 launches, good for you. Try and make it 2 launches. But I would suggest that if that were the case then the finished career mode would not be for you. I personally look forward to launching reasonable rockets and taking each thing step by step, doing things specifically so I can progress. It's pretty easy not to exploit the game mechanics in order to produce extreme results. And you should call it science because money will eventually be something else entirely.

Edit: Also, as people have said this isn't an absolute final draft. There will be many other factors in the finished career mode to consider. Maybe it is a tutorial for the time being, but once everything else fits into place it might not be so easy to blast through it.

Edited October 14, 2013 by Person012345

[AlamoVampire]

we know not what they fully want with this game. and no matter what anyone says to the contrary, this is in fact an ALPHA test. the fact we get to play it as it is, is a rare rare thing, and a testament to the faith Squad has in this title, and the respect they have for gamers. the fact that this game is as stable as it is, this early in its life is actually rather scary, because if it is THIS good NOW, we will see truly EPIC when it is 'done' and at full release.

[Superfluous J]

Yeah. When I saw...

- How it worked

- How much science money you got for doing various things

- How much science money new nodes cost to unlock

... I immediately started to try to figure out how quickly I could unlock everything. And I'm certain, *certain*, that this is exactly what everyone else will do as well. Because this has been what people have done in MMOs for 10 years.

You are wrong. I am just as certain that I am part of "everyone" and I won't be doing this. I may do it the 2nd or 10th time I start a new career (assuming by then we're still on .22 which is very unlikely) but for my first playthrough I am in NO hurry at all to get through the tree. I'm looking FORWARD to the restrictions.

The game is not in alpha.

Yes it is. Alpha is not some nebulous state of how polished a game is. Alpha is the phase where you add major features to a program, and the program is missing huge things. They are adding major features to the game and it's missing huge things, so it's in Alpha.

Secondly, this is the forum for suggestion and development discussion. if you believe everyone should keep their mouth shut and wait, perhaps you should suggest that this forum be removed - except oh bugger, that would also be a suggestion and against your philosophy.

This forum is for people to suggest changes to the game they have PLAYED. Have you played 0.22? No? Then why are you suggesting changes to it based on hearsay and speculation? Based on a single picture in last week's recap post and a statement by arguably the BEST PLAYER IN THE GAME that it was easy to progress?

How have you come up with such strong convictions about something you've never even touched with your own hands?

[allmhuran]

You are wrong. I am just as certain that I am part of "everyone" and I won't be doing this.

Oh yeah? So what do you intend to do instead? Go on, enlighten me. Do you intend to just stick to tier 1 parts? Cool, you can do that now in sandbox, so this mechanic does nothing for you. Or do you intend to invest in unlocking nodes on the tree? And if so, how do you intend to do that?

Alpha is the phase where you add major features to a program, and the program is missing huge things. They are adding major features to the game and it's missing huge things, so it's in Alpha.

You're living in an outdated model that's no longer relevant to how software like this is developed . Further, the last declaration of state we have had from the development team is that the game is "sandbox complete".

This forum is for people to suggest changes to the game they have PLAYED

Oh, really? Funny, I don't see that anywhere. What you appear to be saying is that you can only make suggestions about things that have already been signed off. Does that not seem a little absurd to you?

Then why are you suggesting changes to it based on hearsay and speculation? Based on a single picture in last week's recap post and a statement by arguably the BEST PLAYER IN THE GAME that it was easy to progress?

Lulz at "the best player in the game".

Further lulz at the idea that direct quotes of intent from Felipe amounts to hearsay and speculation.

[Person012345]

Oh yeah? So what do you intend to do instead? Go on, enlighten me. Do you intend to just stick to tier 1 parts? Cool, you can do that now in sandbox, so this mechanic does nothing for you. Or do you intend to invest in unlocking nodes on the tree? And if so, how do you intend to do that?

Do you intend to unlock the tech tree as fast as possible? Great, just go to sandbox, this mode offers nothing for you.

Stop being such an arrogant little brat. We can't do that now in sandbox without knowing what tier 1, tier 2, tier 3 and so on, parts actually are. If someone made a well balanced tech tree and posted it up, maybe I would do that in sandbox. But that still gives you no kind of guide as to when you should advance, what you actually should have to acquire in order to advance and so on. You don't get to declare what certain things offer other people. There still wouldn't be money and so on in that mode either which will be in career eventually. Newsflash - squad isn't going to balance the career mode specifically to suit your special-snowflake ass. They have to make it enjoyable for as many players as possible and those who deliberately exploit the game physics in order to blow through it as fast as possible will likely come near the bottom in that consideration. Just guessing. Maybe they will balance it purely for you, because they love you so much.

You're living in an outdated model that's no longer relevant to how software like this is developed .

[citation needed]

Further, the last declaration of state we have had from the development team is that the game is "sandbox complete".

Sandbox complete =/= complete. It means the sandbox portion is (at least mostly) complete.

Oh, really? Funny, I don't see that anywhere. What you appear to be saying is that you can only make suggestions about things that have already been signed off. Does that not seem a little absurd to you?

He's saying you're bitching and whining about **** that you've not even tried yet. I don't necessarily agree with what he's saying, but I do remember the doomsday criers when they announced they were removing the end flight button. Apparently this was to ruin everything. Oh look, it didn't.

[allmhuran]

Do you intend to unlock the tech tree as fast as possible? Great, just go to sandbox, this mode offers nothing for you.

Yes, that's my point. I must say, I'm pleased to see you're starting to come around.

Stop being such an arrogant little brat

Or not. But running out of arguments I see.

We can't do that now in sandbox without knowing what tier 1, tier 2, tier 3 and so on, parts actually are.

1) We do know what they are.

2) Why does it matter which parts Squad says are "tier 1"? If you want to limit yourself, just pick which parts you want to exclude.

But that still gives you no kind of guide as to when you should advance, what you actually should have to acquire in order to advance and so on.

If you mean to say "the tech tree is just a tutorial" - again, yes, this is what I've already stated.

You don't get to declare what certain things offer other people.

No, I really do, because some things are just necessarily true. If you are trying to tell me that adding a tech tree where you have to unlock new nodes somehow introduces a new and interesting gameplay element where you specifically do not try to unlock new nodes - I would tell you that what you were saying is complete lunacy.

It is certainly the case that, as a tutorial system for new players, the tech tree implementation as it stands right now needs no modification. I already said this in a previous post. However, this does not change the fact that the tech tree is nothing but a generic XP system, and all XP systems motivate the player to do exactly one thing: gain XP.

[citation needed]

I've been a programmer for 20 years. I started in games. Go ahead and look me up.

Sandbox complete =/= complete. It means the sandbox portion is (at least mostly) complete.

Yeeesss.... not sure why you are pointing this out.

He's saying you're bitching and whining about **** that you've not even tried yet.

I am doing neither. I opened a discussion on a topic, gave my thoughts and suggestions. Perhaps you should read the OP again? And, because you seem to have missed it, let me state that last point again: It makes no sense to claim that this forum, titled "suggestion and development discussion", should only be used to discuss things that have been built, tested, signed off and released, because that is the point at which things are hardest to change. Do you go into all the threads about "improved aerodynamics", the upcoming economy, the threads that brought up what was wrong with SAS and how it needed to change, and tell them "no, you can't talk about those things until they're implemented"? Because, once again, that seems pretty insane to me.

[PDCWolf]

I've said it before elsewhere, but I'll say it again now: I'm certain that, further on down the line, a lot of the "grindy" or "cheaty" aspects of metagaming the research system are going to be mitigated once we have an actual economic system in place that limits the number and quality of parts we can use on one rocket.

Yes, a lot of experienced top-tier players are probably going to try to find ways to break the system wide open, but that's really no different from how some people play every other game out there, video / computer or otherwise.

Yeah, you introduce economics, and now the grinding process is twice the lenght, forcefully. That's certainly not a good way of making a game mechanic. Instead of including depth and though you just place a limitation to make a process twice the lenght, like the randomly generated content in diablo 3, where the game lasts 2 hours but the rest of the game is just the same things pasted multiple times.

Or, just don't do that. Problem solved. If you want to exploit the game you can unlock everything in 3 flights. Or, you could just go ahead and not, and then you can experience it as it was meant.

Player-imposed limitations are the best way of telling something is not being done correctly. Also remember that it is not a exploit, it's the way the system was laid out and presented to everyone.

A couple of things:

The game is not in alpha. The concept of alpha, beta, final, etc, don't really make much sense these days, with fast internet, continuous updates and developers being connected with consumers. Yes, for some of the AAA, giant evil corporation style titles the model might still apply. But not for games like KSP. If you read up on the history of the game, way back at the start it was possible that any given release could have been the last. I'm sure that yes, at some point Squad will label a release as "v1.0", but that differentiation will be purely nominal.

Secondly, this is the forum for suggestion and development discussion. if you believe everyone should keep their mouth shut and wait, perhaps you should suggest that this forum be removed - except oh bugger, that would also be a suggestion and against your philosophy.

I like how when you mention wobble and other incomplete features you get "shut up entitled kid, the game is in alpha, be thankful that squad is letting you play their game". Yet when you say something may be done differently and use "its an alpha, it may change" all you get is "it's not an alpha".

Hypocrisy at its finest.

[allmhuran]

Hm, I personally have never claimed it was in alpha... but yes, it does seem to be a common refrain.