[1.12.*] Deadly Reentry v7.9.0 The Barbie Edition, Aug 5th, 2021

[eightiesboi]

On 6/11/2022 at 8:44 PM, FireFaced said:

Could support for NF Spacecraft pods be added? Some of them (notably the Mk1-L 'Nereld', Mk3 'Tethys', and Mk3B 'Pandora") have segments that are exposed to heat during reentry, and visually appear to be ablators, but there is no ablator module. This causes explosion on reentry, which is less than ideal. I would contribute the patch myself but I can't for the life of me find documentation on what modules to use.

Visuals aside, I don't see anything in the description that there is an integrated heatshield or that ablative material is used on any of those command pods / landers. There is no ablator resource included in the configs for those vehicles, which suggests that that Nertea (the mod author for NF) didn't intend for these pods to have integrated heatshields.

It's your game, of course, and you can do whatever you want with it!  In that spirit, if you want to add ablative shielding to the NF pods, you might want to either look at how DRE added it (check out the DeadlyReentry.cfg and look at the line for "@PART[mk1pod|mk1podNew|mk1pod_v2]:FOR[DeadlyReentry]" for an example), or you could look at what Squad does on their pods (an example can be found in the KV1Pod.cfg, and either add an MM patch [the best practices method] or copy/paste the ModuleAblator and Resource blocks right into your command pod of choice [not generally a good idea]).

Remember to backup any files you start playing around with!

Edited June 13, 2022 by eightiesboi
Forgot a ")"

[FireFaced]

1 hour ago, eightiesboi said:

Visuals aside, I don't see anything in the description that there is an integrated heatshield or that ablative material is used on any of those command pods / landers. There is no ablator resource included in the configs for those vehicles, which suggests that that Nertea (the mod author for NF) didn't intend for these pods to have integrated heatshields.

Visually, the parts that are exposed appear to be ablative. With a heatshield on the bottom of the pod, those sections are still exposed, and overheat during reentry. My theory is that perhaps the stock reentry model doesn't necessitate the addition of an ablator module there, but with DRE it is necessary. Perhaps I'll contact Nertea.

[Starwaster]

@eightiesboi 

@FireFaced

The stock pods don't have ablator at all. Deadly Reentry does add a shield to the Mk1 pod and 10 points of shielding to the Mark 1-2/1-3 

I could do something similar to the parts that FireFaced is referring to, like 10 points worth. It would still require a shield. Now.... there is actually an issue already raised for those parts on the repository. I haven't had a chance to download the NF mod that adds those parts to decide what solution to implement. The issue raised has a screenshot of one of the pods and the stock shields just don't cover enough of the bottom. The bottom of the pod will  be exposed to the reentry shockwave at a percentage equal to the exposed surface. And if the pod walls are steep then part of them will be exposed too. That's all stock KSP btw. Deadly Reentry doesn't handle part anymore. It doesn't decide how much of a part is exposed, it just affects how the parts will react to overheating. KSP still dictates the physics behind how that heat gets there.

So anyway, it's on my radar to look into this.

 

[Starwaster]

NF Spacecraft pod issues are fairly well known in the NF community vis a vis reentry with DR or JNSQ installed. And probably RO as well. It's not an issue with those mods themselves, just that they are all less forgiving than stock. Falls into the category of not letting any unshielded part of your craft poke out into the reentry shockwave because, no take backsies.

[FireFaced]

On 6/14/2022 at 1:54 PM, Starwaster said:

NF Spacecraft pod issues are fairly well known in the NF community vis a vis reentry with DR or JNSQ installed. And probably RO as well. It's not an issue with those mods themselves, just that they are all less forgiving than stock. Falls into the category of not letting any unshielded part of your craft poke out into the reentry shockwave because, no take backsies.

Yeah I've got both DR and JNSQ, so the effects are extra spicy. I suppose for now I just can't use NF pods lol. Thanks for looking into the issue though.

[Starwaster]

Ok, going through NF stuff and I'll be adding a modest amount of ablator to some of the pods. Just enough to handle heat spillage that gets past any attached shields. In doing so, I've noticed that a lot of the shields sink into the pods more than they should, especially the stock shields. I suspect this is because Nertea designed these to go with the ReStock parts, which I don't use. If you find that happening, just use the move tool in the VAB to slide the shields down a bit.

[Starwaster]

Added support in for Near Future command pods. The release is not updated so you'll have to download the file directly. Several other files have also been updated since the latest release. Alternatively you can download the repo itself and extract the files there.

(no testing has been done on the NF pods but they should be fine. try them and let me know)

Direct file links: right click and then click save link as...

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Starwaster/DeadlyReentry/working/DeadlyReentry/DeadlyReentry-NearFuture.cfg

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Starwaster/DeadlyReentry/working/DeadlyReentry/DeadlyReentry-OPT.cfg

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Starwaster/DeadlyReentry/working/DeadlyReentry/DeadlyReentry-TaurusHCV.cfg

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Starwaster/DeadlyReentry/working/DeadlyReentry/DeadlyReentry.cfg

Edited June 21, 2022 by Starwaster

[Starwaster]

I have spent the last three hours testing my changes. I can successfully bring the Nereid through reentry without it burning up, but it is extremely aerodynamically unstable. Part of that might be the aerodynamics of the DR 1.25m heatshield. Jettisoning it helps with the aerodynamics but the Nereid just does not behave itself aerodynamically speaking. It has a terminal velocity of ~524m/s and and I have not been able to successfully land it.

Many Kerbals.... died... to bring us this information.

edit:

what it has a ballistic coefficient more than 5x that of the Mk2 Command Pod....

Edited June 21, 2022 by Starwaster

[4x4cheesecake]

hey there

does DRE changes how g-force tolerances on parts work in a fundamental way? I just ran into an issue which caused the wings of my plane to explode and the flight log told me it was because of excessive g-forces... but I was flying in a straight line at the same level for like 40min before it happened. I tried reloading a quicksave and restarted the whole flight like 4 times but it always happens after about 40min flight time to me.  And apparently, I'm not alone, at least the issue sounds exactly the same:

I was able to perform the whole trip to the south pole after uninstalling DRE, so I guess its caused by this mod?
Is there some intended "built up" of forces/stresses over time or something we are missing here which would explain it or is it just some good old bug?

[Starwaster]

@4x4cheesecake

Part damage is a feature in DRE. It could be the cause of what you’re experiencing but I can’t say that definitively without more troubleshooting and that’s not something I’m able to do very easily right now. I don’t have a PC anymore and I don’t know when or if I can rectify that. 
 

What I can say is this: the damage feature in DRE is  gradual and it is thermal. I might have also coded it so parts take damage from g-forces too but I don’t recall. I’m looking over the code on github but it’s slow going on my iPhone screen. 
 

I can also say that I was never happy with the level of feedback to players that their ship was taking damage. If you look at the PAW it should tell you if it’s damaged. An engineer can repair the damage. (For free I think)

STILL also, thermal damage was coded to be directional to simulate burn through. That was the primary purpose of the feature. So you would have to be going high supersonic for this to be happening. Maybe adding wings with thermal protection is what you need to do. I don’t think I coded it to allow the player to disable the feature. 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Starwaster

[4x4cheesecake]

@StarwasterThanks for your reply

Well, the flight log clearly says it happens because of g-forces (the actual KSP log doesn't say anything specific, just mentions that a part blew up) and the thermals actually are fine. Some light heating occurs but not for an extended period of time and the gauge is just like half way filled up aka just appeared. I also tried slowing down a bit to prevent any heat built up but it doesn't seem to prevent the parts from blowing up anyway. (I try to fly around 500m/s at an altitude around 9km to 10km).

Spoiler

The PAW doesn't show any damage to the parts in question, though there is no engineer on board, so I may have to take one on a trip.

I might do some more testing later, trying to minimize the installed mods just to be sure it really is DRE and not a combination of mods.
I'll also play around with some of the debug information KSP provides on its own and keep you updated on my findings

[4x4cheesecake]

@Starwaster Ok, solved the mystery already xD

It actually IS a heating issue:

Spoiler

Once the internal temp of the part goes beyond the 450K operational temp. limit of DRE, part damage starts to built up and once it reaches 1.0, the part blows up, which, well... always happen after around 40- 45min if I fly my plane within the same parameters

Its just misleading by the flight log that it claims g-forces to be the issue and not thermals or anything else and there is also no heat gauge showing up on the parts.

I wonder if it would be possible to trigger some kind of warning heating gauge once you get close to the limit of any part?

[stk2008]

Have you seen this it makes the heat display so much better and also has loads of optoins.

it also has a nice temp display in the PAW menu

 

 

[4x4cheesecake]

14 minutes ago, stk2008 said:

Have you seen this it makes the heat display so much better and also has loads of optoins.

it also has a nice temp display in the PAW menu

 

 

I'll check it out, thanks

[Starwaster]

@4x4cheesecake Interesting, your skin temperature is a good bit lower so where’s the heat coming from? 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Starwaster

[4x4cheesecake]

5 minutes ago, Starwaster said:

@4x4cheesecake Interesting, your skin temperature is a good bit lower so where’s the heat coming from? 

Hottest part are my Wheesley turbofan engines, so I guess its coming from them? I honestly have no clue how heat transfer works in this game

Spoiler

(screenshot is taken at a different time than the one showing the tail fin)
The tail fins are actually attached to the second center fuel tank and the same applies to the fuel tanks on the wing tips. these parts are just offset a lot but its easier to built it this way to keep everything properly aligned.
So, I assume heat transfer follows the "actual connections"...

[Starwaster]

@4x4cheesecake there is internal to internal heat transfer on radially attached parts but at a slower rate than stack or attachment point connected parts. 
 

I don’t recall what the percentage was though

[4x4cheesecake]

Don't worry, it's fine. Now that I know what is causing my issue, I can work around it. Either by building the planes differently or simply slowing down

I mean, the whole point of running DRE is to increase difficulty and even though I didn't expect my planes to be affected by it, its a new challenge to tackle and I'm in for that  

[stk2008]

Did you get a chance to install hotspot.

It has a load of different display types to choose from not just the default one.

It might shed a bit more light on your issue

[4x4cheesecake]

38 minutes ago, stk2008 said:

Did you get a chance to install hotspot.

It has a load of different display types to choose from not just the default one.

It might shed a bit more light on your issue

Not yet, I'll try it tomorrow. Re-launching my modded install takes like 10 minutes and I want to finish at least one of my long range flight missions today instead of playing around with new mods. But I'll come back to you and report some of my findings once I got around to try it out

[4x4cheesecake]

On 11/14/2022 at 8:21 PM, stk2008 said:

Did you get a chance to install hotspot.

It has a load of different display types to choose from not just the default one.

It might shed a bit more light on your issue

So, I tried the hot spot mod and honestly, it wasn't as helpful as I thought, mostly because I wasn't able to get the overlay to work. As far as I can tell, it is supposed to replace the stock overlay but it just didn't work for me. The information provided in the PAW were pretty much the same as the stock debug information, so that didn't help much either except for having them available without the need to open the debug menu first.

Anyway, I fixed my issue by simply re-arranging "physical" connection between parts and using the offset tool to put everything into the right spot.
Btw. adding a radiator helped as well... kinda... the radiator introduced so much drag to my plane that I simply couldn't fly fast enough create enough heat for anything to explode

Though, I'm thinking about writing a MM patch to solve the issue in a more elegant way, maybe by introducing a part upgrade (the TPS upgrade provided by DRE only applies to the MK1 cockpit and also doesn't affect max operational temp, just max skin temp) but I have to see if I want to spent a couple hours to get back into MM "coding".

[stk2008]

Ah ok..TBH I am not that great at KSP so have not got deep into the ins and outs of thermal temps and what not.

[Starwaster]

8 hours ago, 4x4cheesecake said:

Though, I'm thinking about writing a MM patch to solve the issue in a more elegant way, maybe by introducing a part upgrade (the TPS upgrade provided by DRE only applies to the MK1 cockpit and also doesn't affect max operational temp, just max skin temp) but I have to see if I want to spent a couple hours to get back into MM "coding".

Not sure TPS actually would have helped in that case after seeing your screenshot since the heat didn’t seem to be coming from outside. Unless I missed something. 
 

re: max op temp, it at least changed it for the skin didn’t it? If not, that’s trouble. 
 

also trouble if it’s not applying to more parts. I could have sworn I expanded the list of covered parts. 

[4x4cheesecake]

30 minutes ago, Starwaster said:

re: max op temp, it at least changed it for the skin didn’t it? If not, that’s trouble. 

yeah, it's changed for the skin from 450K to 2706K (also some other properties like mass, emissive constant, etc...)

31 minutes ago, Starwaster said:

also trouble if it’s not applying to more parts. I could have sworn I expanded the list of covered parts. 

I was only looking at your MM patch for the upgrade and went through the MM cache, seaching for "TPS" and I only found the upgrade for the MK1 cockpit. So, unless the other parts are addressed in a different patch and the upgrade is named differently, nothing else seems to be covered.

Since you already mentioned that you don't have any access to a PC right now, feel free to PM me if you want to add some more part upgrades and I'll see if I can provides some more MM patches for you and create a PR on github, easy for you to merge even via phone

[Starwaster]

The cache is absolute. 
 

how about this: if there’s wing parts that should have the option of being upgraded, feel free to do a pull requests.  I can’t make a release but I can accept requests and then it’ll at least be in the repository for people to download