Do you think rocket construction will ever "take time"?

[Superfluous J]

Yeah there are 2 conversations going on here (at least). One of them is about making a mod for this, and the other is about if this should be in the stock game. Those of us who have read all 15 pages know this.

[Deadweasel]

I've been with the conversation from a few pages in, maybe you should skim a bit yourself? Anyway, my post was more related to Harvester's perceived "misunderstanding" of the question. I think he interpreted correctly regarding this "feature".

No sir (ma'am?), that wasn't directed toward you. I can see you're addressing the concept as a whole, not just simply stating it should be a mod only and leaving it at that.

Honestly I think the original post was more an inquiry about a potential feature for the player's own take on the game, without realizing that it could be introduced as a mod, rather than strictly as an official feature. I think Ekku's work will put the debate at large sufficiently to rest, as it will give others (including the OP of course) the ability to try it out and perhaps refine the idea further. After all, MechJeb and FAR change the game substantially in an attempt to add some complexity and give the player more to think about. Not everybody uses or even likes them, but none can deny the huge following they've gathered anyway.

Who knows? Maybe this rough concept could evolve into something else that's more interesting to a broader audience once it's had a chance to evolve. Maybe the concept of artificially "wasted" time isn't the core of the question, so much as trying to focus on possible aspects to make the game a little more immersive. For my money, though like you I don't personally agree with the idea in its current state, I think there's potential for it to spawn something more down the road. Assuming it gains traction, of course.

[Camelotking524]

Well he kind of did because anything involving time where timewarping is concerned is kind of dumb.

Why exactly is this a problem to be solved? You can already roleplay it to your heart's content and it doesn't bother the rest of us who can suspend their disbelief for a game about little green men launching rockets.

No it wouldn't, it'd force them to do a bunch more timewarping and less actual flying. Miss the launch window? Now you're punished for "lack of planning" and have to timewarp for three minutes when you should be flying a rocket.

This most certainly belongs in a mod, and not the actual game, because it promotes waiting instead of active gameplay.

No, it promotes one to plan ahead and have consequence when they don't, like you are playing a game. You have to warp 3 minutes so the launch window open again. Guess what? You just missed several launch windows to other worlds, the oxygen (or kerbal version of breathing gases) run out on your space station, and you lost all the experience gained by the kerbals living up there.

Right now, career mode is nothing more then sandbox with parts restriction and science. There are a lot that has yet to be implemented into it that you have yet to consider when you out right dismissed this idea. The game is called Kerbal Space Program, not Kerbal rocket simulator.

Also, He really didn't answer the question at all. The question he answered was if time would ever passed while designing a rocket in the VAB or SPH.

HarvesteR: I assume this is about having time actually passing in the simulation while you’re building? I’m not sure I’d like to have that, since when you’re building a ship, you're focused on construction, and I wouldn't like it if the game kept interrupting me over things that are happening outside the construction facility.

.

[regex]

ma'am?

Sir, thanks for asking.

I think Ekku's work will put the debate at large sufficiently to rest, as it will give others (including the OP of course) the ability to try it out and perhaps refine the idea further.

Yeah, it's great he's writing the mod, if for no other reason than it'll show people how this sort of thing will work.

No, it promotes one to plan ahead and have consequence when they don't, like you are playing a game. You have to warp 3 minutes so the launch window open again. Guess what? You just missed several launch windows to other worlds, the oxygen (or kerbal version of breathing gases) run out on your space station, and you lost all the experience gained by the kerbals living up there.

tbh if I'm so bored that I'm time-warping to the next launch window after waiting for a ship to be built and I missed my station running out of oxygen, I really shouldn't be playing KSP in the first place because it's a boring game. You can call it planning or immersion or whatever, but in the end I suspect that it will just end up being a hassle and a time-waster. The real reason I oppose this idea, especially as a stock feature, is that when I sit down to play KSP I only have two hours to do so. I don't want to spend half that time jockeying spreadsheets and making sure all my launches are timed perfectly, and that the rockets will be built on-time, and that my station will have oxygen while I wait for a ship to be built. That's terrible gameplay.

[horndgmium]

Maybe you could invest more resources/cost to build something faster? And cost would go down for less new tech.

[Skyler4856]

No, Never add this!

[Holo]

No, Never add this!

Why not add this?

[Deadweasel]

Why not add this?

Because some people are scared of change, even if it is presented as a mod they can choose to ignore.

[Camelotking524]

tbh if I'm so bored that I'm time-warping to the next launch window after waiting for a ship to be built and I missed my station running out of oxygen, I really shouldn't be playing KSP in the first place because it's a boring game. You can call it planning or immersion or whatever, but in the end I suspect that it will just end up being a hassle and a time-waster. The real reason I oppose this idea, especially as a stock feature, is that when I sit down to play KSP I only have two hours to do so. I don't want to spend half that time jockeying spreadsheets and making sure all my launches are timed perfectly, and that the rockets will be built on-time, and that my station will have oxygen while I wait for a ship to be built. That's terrible gameplay.

Well maybe you shouldn't be playing a game which is a simulation of running a space program. KSP has always been sold on being BARIS + Orbiter. While currently the Orbiter aspect is pretty far along, we have yet to even touch on the BARIS part. If you are so worried about having to wait, then just play sandbox. Its kind designed for those people who don't have a lot of time to try to manage everything and you can just launch rockets.

I mean...did anyone ever complain about having to wait in XCOM? Because you have to time warp between each encounter with the alien forces, while also having to manage all the other aspects of your alien defense force. Budgeting, waiting for research to be complete, equipping your squad. I don't see the difference from having to wait on research to be completed on a Plasma rifle in XCom, to waiting for a rocket to be built, or having to wait for parts to arrive from the manufacturer in KSP.

[regex]

Well maybe you shouldn't be playing a game which is a simulation of running a space program. KSP has always been sold on being BARIS + Orbiter. While currently the Orbiter aspect is pretty far along, we have yet to even touch on the BARIS part. If you are so worried about having to wait, then just play sandbox. Its kind designed for those people who don't have a lot of time to try to manage everything and you can just launch rockets.

BARIS is turn-based; while you can draw comparisons in mechanics, you can't with time. Furthermore, I see no reason why people who don't want dumb wait times can't have the added complexities and fun of science, reputation, funding, etc...

I mean...did anyone ever complain about having to wait in XCOM?

XCOM isn't exactly the height of gameplay either but if I recall the first game you never sat around for too long before something happened, maybe 30 seconds at the most if you kept the base busy. I would consider the timewarping there akin to what we have in KSP right now (less, actually) where we're waiting for an SOI change or something. The problem is that this idea just piles on even more waiting.

Like if I unlock a bunch of parts in my game you're saying that I should not only have to unlock and purchase them with science and money (not a big deal, I can gain those through active gameplay) I should also have to wait for them to arrive, and then wait for them to be built into a ship that I can launch. Finally, two game years after I first saw those parts in the tech tree I am able to get them into flight. Yippee. Meanwhile I've run a few resupply missions, maybe bored myself to death on the Mun because I needed those parts to go further, and waited for more parts and ships to be built. I get that people want realism, but that sounds like a terrible game.

[Camelotking524]

XCOM isn't exactly the height of gameplay either but if I recall the first game you never sat around for too long before something happened, maybe 30 seconds at the most if you kept the base busy. I would consider the timewarping there akin to what we have in KSP right now (less, actually) where we're waiting for an SOI change or something. The problem is that this idea just piles on even more waiting.

Like if I unlock a bunch of parts in my game you're saying that I should not only have to unlock and purchase them with science and money (not a big deal, I can gain those through active gameplay) I should also have to wait for them to arrive, and then wait for them to be built into a ship that I can launch. Finally, two game years after I first saw those parts in the tech tree I am able to get them into flight. Yippee. Meanwhile I've run a few resupply missions, maybe bored myself to death on the Mun because I needed those parts to go further, and waited for more parts and ships to be built. I get that people want realism, but that sounds like a terrible game.

The first xcom alien encounter wait was determine if you could detect them with your radar dishes built in your base. No base with radar coverage, no detection. So you could spend up to several months of ingame time waiting. Just fyi. And considering all the acclaim the first XCOM gets for its gameplay to this day, lets not get into that.

Why would you have to wait on both. If you go back and read one of my previous post on in this topic, I recommended using the time for parts to arrive instead of having to wait for the rocket to be built. That way after you designed the rocket, you could just launch it. You just have to use the parts in inventory or wait from the manufacturer for them to arrive. Combine with other aspect of a career mode, like budgeting, mission to gain funding and prestige, and research, this will increase gameplay depth.

Example: You set up a mission to gain some science to land on the mun. You order the parts and then time warp for them to arrive. While you were time warping, whatever governing body kerbals have task you with a probe to Duna because the launch window is coming up. Now, you have the budget to order the parts for the Duna mission, but they wont arrive till after the launch window. So, do you use the parts from your mun mission, along with whatever you already have in inventory, to send the probe to Duna. Or do you skip the mission, missing out on the increase in funds to your budget and launch your mun science mission?

I don't think you are looking at the wait for parts or rocket manufacturing as part of the whole career mode.

[Skyler4856]

What's the point? Authenticity isn't necessarily realism. I (and many others I'm sure) would find it tedious to have to wait for a rocket to be built

[regex]

And considering all the acclaim the first XCOM gets for its gameplay to this day, lets not get into that.

The whole reason we're having an argument about this in the first place is because people have different opinions about what good gameplay is. What you just said is the equivalent of telling someone who only really enjoys historical wargames that Halflife is the best game ever made because critics said so, and they better believe it.

Example: You set up a mission to gain some science to land on the mun. You order the parts and then time warp for them to arrive. While you were time warping, whatever governing body kerbals have task you with a probe to Duna because the launch window is coming up. Now, you have the budget to order the parts for the Duna mission, but they wont arrive till after the launch window. So, do you use the parts from your mun mission, along with whatever you already have in inventory, to send the probe to Duna. Or do you skip the mission, missing out on the increase in funds to your budget and launch your mun science mission?

That sounds like a much better game mechanic than simply waiting around for a rocket to be built (I know that's not what OP proposed but that's what it would end up being because other stuff happens in the game and most people have more than one flight going at a time). Whether we'll have mandatory missions is an entirely different discussion.

[Camelotking524]

The whole reason we're having an argument about this in the first place is because people have different opinions about what good gameplay is. What you just said is the equivalent of telling someone who only really enjoys historical wargames that Halflife is the best game ever made because critics said so, and they better believe it.

More like I didn't want to derail this topic on discussing the complexity and depth of the original X-com. While you can dislike the game play and whatnot, fact is that X-COM has some of the most deep and complex gameplay ever. Just as much as I can dislike Halflife as a game series, I still admit it is one of the bars that immersion in games are held to.

That sounds like a much better game mechanic than simply waiting around for a rocket to be built (I know that's not what OP proposed but that's what it would end up being because other stuff happens in the game and most people have more than one flight going at a time). Whether we'll have mandatory missions is an entirely different discussion.

Its just a way that waiting could be used to enhance gameplay. I kinda wish Squad would release something that would give us a bit more details on the mechanics they have planned for career mode and how they would all fit together.

[thereaverofdarkness]

howabout someone make a mod for this and see how popular it is?

[xvdBanksbvx]

howabout someone make a mod for this and see how popular it is?

Oh ha ha, read the past 16 pages.

[Ekku Zakku]

Yeah, speaking of that... It was all ready and I was wanting to put it up tonight, but Git is retarded and difficult to learn, so for now I'm going to get some sleep and tomorrow morning I will put the dev thread up lol. *shoots self for not going to bed earlier*

EDIT: development thread here, for those who want to follow it: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/59704-WIP-Kerbal-Construction-Timer

Edited November 27, 2013 by Ekku Zakku

[Deadweasel]

What's the point? Authenticity isn't necessarily realism. I (and many others I'm sure) would find it tedious to have to wait for a rocket to be built

They very well might. Or, they might actually be looking for something to extend their own interest in it by creating more complexity and "realistic" delays in the flow of it. Plenty will (and have already) argued vehemently against this idea, but I have to give the OP credit: this actually is an interesting branch of thought at the very least.

Don't agree? That's your fair right, but before you harrumph your victory and stalk away, I present you (the folks who have been forcefully against even considering this concept) with this:

Remotetech.

Adds realistic delay to commands issued to far-flung probes. Makes control of those probes impossible without satellite relays or at least line-of-sight to the vessel.

It's a mod whose primary function is to introduce artificial blockades to vanilla gameplay, in an effort to make that play a little more immersive to those who are looking for it.

Here is a mod that introduces the very thing that so many have (sometimes rudely) argued against, namely the artificial wait time aspect, and it's got a solid following. It's WHOLE initial purpose was to make comm/command delays more realistic, and people snapped it up.

I wonder if that developer saw the same extreme of negative knee-jerk "NOT IN MY KSP!!" response when he/they first floated the idea...

[Superfluous J]

I wonder if that developer saw the same extreme of negative knee-jerk "NOT IN MY KSP!!" response when he/they first floated the idea...

I doubt it, because he put this sort of thing exactly where it belong: In a mod.

I personally won't use RemoteTech. I'd love the line-of-sight stuff but dealing with speed-of-light delay is just not attractive to me.

[razark]

I personally won't use RemoteTech. I'd love the line-of-sight stuff but dealing with speed-of-light delay is just not attractive to me.

In the file RemoteTech_Settings.cfg:

EnableSignalDelay = False

[Superfluous J]

In the file RemoteTech_Settings.cfg:

EnableSignalDelay = False

Sweet thanks! I'll probably wait until 0.23 when I restart my career but I'll definitely use the mod now!

[Skyler4856]

They very well might. Or, they might actually be looking for something to extend their own interest in it by creating more complexity and "realistic" delays in the flow of it. Plenty will (and have already) argued vehemently against this idea, but I have to give the OP credit: this actually is an interesting branch of thought at the very least.

Don't agree? That's your fair right, but before you harrumph your victory and stalk away, I present you (the folks who have been forcefully against even considering this concept) with this:

Remotetech.

Adds realistic delay to commands issued to far-flung probes. Makes control of those probes impossible without satellite relays or at least line-of-sight to the vessel.

It's a mod whose primary function is to introduce artificial blockades to vanilla gameplay, in an effort to make that play a little more immersive to those who are looking for it.

Here is a mod that introduces the very thing that so many have (sometimes rudely) argued against, namely the artificial wait time aspect, and it's got a solid following. It's WHOLE initial purpose was to make comm/command delays more realistic, and people snapped it up.

I wonder if that developer saw the same extreme of negative knee-jerk "NOT IN MY KSP!!" response when he/they first floated the idea...

Remotetech is entirely different in that while it may require waiting for comm/command relays it doesn't arbitrarily impose time required for rocket building.

[celem]

Quite right. But I highly doubt KSP team would ever release a feature that smacked in any way of 'arbitrary'

RT is an excellent example of what Deadweasel is saying it is. Another complexity layer to slow the flow of the game and add realism/immersion.

[Deadweasel]

Remotetech is entirely different in that while it may require waiting for comm/command relays it doesn't arbitrarily impose time required for rocket building.

Umm... yeah. In that way it is completely different, but that has nothing to do with what I was talking about, does it?

No, it doesn't impose additional build time for rockets, but it does introduce a delay that doesn't exist otherwise, for the sake of realism and challenge, which is the same as what the mod proposed here would do.

Whether or not you think that is an arbitrary thing has no bearing here. The fact is that in real life, long distance communications take time, and so does rocket building. Some folks get a kick out of adding that real-time delay for comm/control into the game via RT for the sake of having that extra challenge; why wouldn't they also look at a mod that adds time delay for rocket building or parts ordering the same way?

[HeadHunter67]

Mod mod mod... it keeps coming back to that. If this discussion is about a proposal for a mod, then it is and has been in the wrong section.

Perhaps if a moderator would kindly move it so that people don't get the wrong idea (even though we all know that wasn't the original intent)?