Your opinion on current science

[Szkeptik]

Though the system is shaping up, there are some parts of it that I think should be done differently.

1, One way probes are currently useless. You will currently lose large amounts of science points if you transmit anything but a crew report. Since you don't have a Kerbal on board to do a report, you really can't do anything that a return mission couldn't do better. I think there should be at least a few types of measurements that return 100% science with transmitting. Right now sending an early one way probe to Jool is nothing but a giant waste of possible science.

2, An alternative to this would be to have the game differentiate between mission types. So an unmanned probe can transmit data back, but that wouldn't decrease the amount of science you could get from making the same measurement with a return mission later.

3, A way to make science missions viable for longer periods of time. Now you build and launch a mission into space, collect all the science you can in half a minute, and then your probe is just uselessly hovering there. Probes should be capable of continually transmitting data for longer periods of time as they orbit around a body.

4, Continuous science gathering. Have large lab modules that use supplies and energy to create science. You would have to resupply them every now and then.

5, Surface bases are still not very useful, because you collect the science from around them once and then you have to travel far to find other data rich environments. It's much better to just make the lab module mobile and take it where needed. Science gathering on the surface with an immobile base should be made sustainable (maybe with #4).

6, Anomalies. They should be randomly generated at game start and you could find them on planetary surfaces, in orbit around planets or around the sun. Gathering science right next to them would be lots more efficient than elsewhere. Maybe add some scanning probe parts that you can use to find them.

I'll include a poll to see what people think about the science system by and large. If you would change things, do share!

[jordanjay29]

I'd agree with 3 and 4. 5 makes sense, but I'd much rather focus on orbital stations and rockets than ground bases, unless we can get something more useful than science out of them. Resources would have been the real cool part about bases, but those are nixed, so there goes the reason to put any real effort into a ground base.

I'd disagree with 1 if KSP allowed the ability for probes to do long-term science. I don't care for 2, that's just going to make people rush to get probes, then never try a manned mission again. And 6 seems silly, there are already anomalies in game, why do we have to make them random?

[irongut]

I don't see a poll.

Overall I think the current science system is a good start but it needs improvement. Like you my biggest problem is that unmanned probes are useless. I like to send unmanned probes to bodies I haven't visited before I send a manned mission; to observe, map and find good landing sites. In sandbox I generally put a probe in orbit and land an unmanned rover before sending Jeb. This is similar to rl space exploration but carreer mode would penalise me for doing it this way.

I like your ideas. A probe mission should not penalise a future manned mission and the longer it is in orbit or on the surface the more science it should learn.

[Karriz]

It does need some changes and new features. I definitely agree that some kind of anomalies would be great, and give EVAs a true meaning. You could scan the surface from orbit, and then send a mission to the surface to get some samples.

Probes should have more abilities. Maybe a robotic arm that could scoop up samples? And the ability to scan planetary surfaces.

Permanent space stations and bases should generate science and money, and you'd need to send supply missions to keep them running, as you mentioned.

Having a surface base module (horizontal landing, conveniently placed doors) would be great, as the current science lab is clearly meant for orbital use.

[Spartan125]

I think experiments shouldn't be destroyed after transmitting but will still give you a small amount of science. If you return that experiment then you would get more science and have a higher limit to the science gained. Transmitting wouldn't affect returned ones from a different mission but on the same place meaning that probes aren't completely useless and if you were to return the same experiment with a different container then you will get a bonus but not as much as the transmit and then return.

[sal_vager]

I'd like science to take time to do, an experiment shouldn't be instant.

[Z-Man]

Isn't it aready the case that a single return trip with a single experiment does not exhaust the full science pool for that experiment and target? So it always should make sense to send a cheap, light one way probe first and a manned return mission later. (Or bring two of each experiment right away) Plus, faraway targets net much more points which should offset the transmission loss somewhat when you pick between another return trip to an unvisited mun biome or a one way probe to Jool.

It only SOUNDS useles. "Yeah, you can transmit data, but only up to this tiny bit, and your big experiments break anyway." And too many players think/thought at first that transmission losses are permanent, where really they are just losses for that experiment and do not "waste" any science points. Communication to the player needs to be improved. Sometimes, the best way to do that is a system change, like strictly dividing the science pools between transmisions and recoveries and data processed in the lab module. But, dunno. Maybe just the right tutorials and missions/contracts do the job just as well.

Edit: and yep, experiments that you have to leave on the surface for a couple of months (while you can do something else) definitely would be a good idea. The seismometer would be a prime candidate, also the thermometer. Not much use to do a single measurement with those if you think about it.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Z-Man

[Skyler4856]

Science should return public backing and therefore funding

[Superfluous J]

1, One way probes are currently useless.

I disagree. 1-way probes are far easier than return missions, and therefore have less return value. Early on sending probes to Jool can get you a thousand science points if you're diligent. And if they could transmit back all the science, there'd be no reason for a follow-up manned mission.

2, An alternative to this would be to have the game differentiate between mission types. So an unmanned probe can transmit data back, but that wouldn't decrease the amount of science you could get from making the same measurement with a return mission later.

This makes no sense. What if you brought a manned mission with a probe core as well, and just EVA'd everybody to transmit? Or ejected the probe and then used it to transmit?

3, A way to make science missions viable for longer periods of time.

Things that take time just for the sake of taking time are never going to be in the game, per the developers, and I agree with them on that. I'm a bit surprised that transmitting data takes time, frankly.

4, Continuous science gathering. Have large lab modules that use supplies and energy to create science. You would have to resupply them every now and then.

Sounds reasonable, though there has to be a cap and they'd need to add a way to generate and consume resources when a vessel is not loaded into the physics engine. Which I'd love as it'd make Kethane scanning and mining a lot less painful.

5, Surface bases are still not very useful, because you collect the science from around them once and then you have to travel far to find other data rich environments. It's much better to just make the lab module mobile and take it where needed. Science gathering on the surface with an immobile base should be made sustainable (maybe with #4).

I agree that without mods surface bases are useless, short of a temporary "base" in a nice spot near several biomes, where you do EVAs to collect science and bring them back to the base which is actually just the LM. I don't know if science is the right use of such a base, though. I'd much prefer resource gathering but that has been shelved.

6, Anomalies. They should be randomly generated at game start and you could find them on planetary surfaces, in orbit around planets or around the sun. Gathering science right next to them would be lots more efficient than elsewhere. Maybe add some scanning probe parts that you can use to find them.

Very cool idea, though I don't know how orbit anomalies would work. I don't even think they need to be generated at the start. They could occur in places you do science in, once you report that back. "Hey, that flicker you reported on your last EVA report? The science guys want a closer look. We've marked a spot on Mun where we want a surface sample taken."

Though really all I think science needs is a tweak here and there, and to find some way that if you're transmitting the science and run out of power, the diminishing returns make you lose half the collected science. That's no fun at all.

[InterCity]

I agree with Szkeptik in terms of what needs to be changed. And there's one more thing: i often find myself short of science in mid-game, since i don't have enough power and technologies to get further, and too few ways to get them. Overhauling ground bases and/or orbital stations seem like a necessity to me.

Anyway, good job Squad, i love the way you have developed career mode

[koshelenkovv]

1. I think we need biomes on every planet or moon.

2. Also, output from each biome must be lowered - now one can open all science tree making research on Minmus and Moon only.

3. Also I think that small and light basic instruments - thermometer, barometer, accelerometer, gravimeter must be available early and give smaller output, while bigger and heavier (and more sophisticated) Goo and Materials study must be available later and give high output.

Also, data from basic instruments must be transferred with almost 100% efficiency.

4. This means that basic solar panels and smaller batteries must be available early too.

This rebalance will make probes actually useful as they lighter and do not require return.

Actually, it will make everything easier - it's just simpler to launch small probe and do low output science all over Kerbin or Moon biomes, and only then, when you have more useful parts, send Kerbals taking samples and watching Goo.

[stupid_chris]

This kinda needs an "It's a WIP, I'd wait before giving a judgement"

[Dave Kerbin]

1, One way probes are currently useless. You will currently lose large amounts of science points if you transmit anything but a crew report. Since you don't have a Kerbal on board to do a report, you really can't do anything that a return mission couldn't do better. I think there should be at least a few types of measurements that return 100% science with transmitting. Right now sending an early one way probe to Jool is nothing but a giant waste of possible science.

I'd disagree that the loss on transmission is that great, once you go to other planets (which is when you'll get probe tech anyway) the return is still pretty good (planning my mission to Eve and it looks like a very cheap probe could bring in 2000 science).

At Kerbalcon there was discussion about the last 2 major elements that will be added to the game, reputation and budget. Together with science these 3 things are supposed to put restraints on your missions - the cost of each part is actually used, so sending out a few cheap probes may be a good way to earn science if you are short on cash. Reputation is also a factor - losing kerbals or failing contracts lowers your reputation which makes some things harder to get (I don't know if it was said but it may cost more to hire Kerbals if you've lost several). An unmanned probe carries far less risk since there is no Kerbal to lose.

I'm actually quite happy with the mechanics of science in .23, it is more balanced (less spam) and has less busy work - even though I found my recovery systems in .22 interesting it got really time consuming when I went to Duna. The only thing I think that still needs major work is that the science costs need to be adjusted to account for all the available biomes being added. If you check out my .23 career you'll see that even with 4 completely normal missions you can earn an insane amount of science compared to the tech tree costs. I think the first few tiers, up to the 45 cost items, are well balanced for the science you can earn at that stage. I might be inclined to see the 90 science items increased just a little, maybe to 135. But I think the items that really need a cost increase are the 160 and above - instead of 160, 300 and 550 I think those tiers might work better at something like 300, 600 and 1200 or more. You want there to be some reason to go beyond the Mun and Minmus for science, and your first interplanetary mission should have at least some challenge (keeping things like nuclear engines out of play until you've at least visited another planet with a probe should be a definite goal here).

[Aragosnat]

Do disagree with 1. One way probes can be used to mark out where biodomes are and with the reputation system in the works. That will help re-enforce it. And for Places like Eve. One way probes work just as well as manned missions.

2) Sort of iffy. Part of the reason why I like returning my probes or at least trying to is. The data you gain is only part of the science. The rest come from did it work to checking out the part back at Kerbin to see what type of stresses where placed upon it during its travels.

3) Do agree something like this would be useful. There is a mod that makes anything with an antenna act like a comm sat as well as TAC mod that adds life support.

4) The game is almost there with that. The Science lab does a simple cheat of making parts work again with just the use of evergy. Just needs to be expanded to include matterials for the goo container and SC-9001 Science Jr part. And there is a mod that adds Life Support for our Kerbals.

5) I see what you're saying. But, disagree with you slightly on needing a mobile base. The new science lab could easily stay in one place as then the rover will be lighter due to needing less wheels, batteries, solar panels and other supports which means for those on older pcs they will have less lag and less chance to brake it..

6) Seems to be a bit silly. In another sense I can see that it could make the replay value of the game a bit better. But, not likely will happen as it is not in Squad's vision. They want everyone to have the exact same experiance.

Over all. Some good ideas. Only I would have added rover wheels should have been aquired sooner since in the VAH(?) we see them driving around. And to have thermometer & barometer sooner as well. Since Earth has had them both since the mid 1600's. Plus it would give more reason to explore Kerbin sooner instead of a lot later to never.

[Dave Kerbin]

One other thought is that I think the science lab comes a bit too early and that leads to confusion over what it is for. It should be a part you get when you are in interplanetary phase of the game, either in the 160 or 300 cost tier. It's really something you bring with you to Jool so that you can refurbish goo and material science pods instead of bringing dozens of them along with you. As other planets get biomes it will become more important.

I also think that there is room for a few more instruments. I think there is a gap suitable for another 0.005t instrument that can be used from space (the grav meter is rather lonely). One choice would be a gamma ray detector, something like NASA's GRaND which is used from orbit to help determine the composition of rocky bodies by measuring the cosmic rays passing through it.

The other type of instrument I'd be interested in is a heavier experiment that requires a kerbal to operate. When .22 came out I initially thought you needed a kerbal to go out on EVA to use the material lab (it was only when I right clicked that I found my kerbal could do nothing). Something like a 'Science Sr' to match the Science Jr, it would fit the large radial size and require a kerbal on EVA to operate. Alternatively this spot could be rolled into the lab module - in addition to its other functions the lab could perform some kind of life science experiment when a kerbal is aboard. The science gains would have to be suitably scaled up to account for the labs weight.

[JonnyMonroe]

What you have to remember about probes is that even with the transmit penalty, they will provide a much better cost to science ratio than manned missions. Less equipment needed, and no return fuel/parts needed. Saving a small amount on your payload can save you tons on fuel for your initial launch.

Judging it before budgets exist is silly.

[I_Killed_Jeb]

I hope biome maps become "mappable" via satellites and probes you send out first, and shows up in KSC. That way you are rewarded for progressive missions and it's less of a grind trying to find all biomes manually

[SkyHook]

As long as science doesn't unlock R&D in future updates the science system will be decent.

[AlamoVampire]

i think a long term probe mission like a KSP version of NASA's mars landers like Spirit, Opportunity, Curiosity would be wondrous to have! I think it would need more biomes to be closer for that to work, but, then again we are at the start of career mode in KSP who knows what will come. I think some tweaks and a few changes are what we need honestly, and I think they ARE coming anyway lol

[FITorion]

It's a work in progress.

All the planets need bioms.

There needs to be more varied flavor text. More jokes. But also have flavor text lead people to find things like the Easter eggs and or reveal underlying mysteries about the Kerbal System. The devs don't need to write a plot... but a little background info about the origin of the Kerbals and or alien activity in the system or other interesting things could and should be uncovered through science.

There should be more science instruments and maybe robotic sample return for probes. Space stations need more reason to exist... the science lab is a good first start but more is needed.

But of course the need for more in nothing new to KSP. What exists is just the bare minimum to test the systems as they are implemented. More and different and fun and kooky comes when they are done implementing systems and get to the phase of development when they are filling up those systems with content.

[FenrirWolf]

I like it a lot better than in .22 so far. Being able to see how much science has been extracted and how much remains left over is excellent just on its own, and not having to spam transmit 50 times in each biome is welcome as well.

I don't see why the OP says that unmanned probes are a waste though. My understanding is that you can get 40% of the science from a given biome via transmitting, which just means you can pick the rest up via a manned mission/science lab transmission at another time.

[FlamedSteak]

I'm quite happy with how it is, the main additions I'd make are;

1. An animation for collecting samples.

2. More varied biomes that tell a story about the planet/moon (however with less value for each)

Unmanned probes are and should remain less useful scientifically, they should be utterly tedious. I've heard plenty of nasa scientists say that with a human on the ground on Mars, they could do in a few days what it has taken Curiosity a year to accomplish.

Either way there will always be a team of folks ready to ***** and moan about every aspect of ksp. Some people will be happy, some people will foam at the mouth with indignation, it's just the way the game community works. It doesn't make a lick of difference how well squad do their job, some people will be unhappy in the manner in which they have done it.

[WhiteWeasel]

I'd personally like to add a small bonus when resetting a new experiment. Like for each new experiment cleaned from kerbin SOI, you could get a +3 science and the bonus will be bigger at harder destinations like +8 at jool or + 12 for cleaning a surface of EVE canister. The values aren't exactly rock solid but the gist if the idea is to encourage usage of the lab module by giving a bonus that, by itself isn't much. but accumulates over time.

Such as if you were to clean 15 different experiments from the kerbin system you'd get 45 science. Goo canisters and materials bay count separately. So if you did those 15 experiments with a goo canister and a materials bay you would get 90 science by proxy.

[bsalis]

I wouldn't say it needs an overhaul, as much as just needs to be completed with the rest of Career mode.

The mechanics of data gathering and conversion to science points is something that I think is fine as is. However, I think science points should just convert to money.

As for parts and the tech tree. I think you should start with 1950s era tech, with tree progression focusing on parts that actually make a difference (like the LT-N). Tech nodes should require a threshold of science points in order to unlock, however to actually unlock them, you need to pay money.

Science points, contract missions, and government funding (variable via reputation) should all be sources of money. Money should be an SI unit. Parts to build rockets will cost money obviously.

The breadth and depth of science gathering should be expanded. I'd like to see more scientific instruments, and perhaps even analysis mini-games in order to convert data to science points. I'd also like to see non-uniform data from surface samples, such that it pays to walk or rover around a biome for a higher data yield sample.

[zarniw00p]

It's fine, Squad should focus on more important stuff.