[1.8+] Real Fuels

[Kesa]

Quick question. Why is it people use KIDS with RSS/RO? I keep seeing people mention that.. Even Felbourn mentioned he uses KIDS with RSS in one of his Alexandria videos ( of which I am in love with btw ). So, why? I thought that was the whole point of RSS..

I think using the KIDS "Extend curve to Zero Isp" option is the only way to correct the Isp for atmospheric pressures above 1 atm, like on Venus, Titan, or Jupiter...although if you are trying to return a rocket from low in Jupiter's atmosphere, you're probably going to have a bad day.

I just learned that KIDS was not just a Isp Difficulty Scaler (which I wouldn't use, because I prefer play full stock or full realism, RO), but also can be set to fix the engines' behavior, by :

- scaling the Thrust with Isp

- Extending Isp curve to pressure higher than 1 bar

RF does the first, does it also do the second?

If so, can I use KER to figure out performance at high pressure?

If not, how do KIDS and RF interact with their overlaping features? How can I set KIDS to

EDIT : I just checked with KER, RF seems to use Isp at kerbin sea level for any pressure greater than 1 bar. I'll head on KIDS' page to see how to configure it.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Kesa

[NathanKell]

Psawhn:

You're conflating Real Fuels and Proc Parts, which is part of the issue.

RF supports:

in MFSSETTINGS (i.e. default): baseCostPV: cost per unit of volume in the tank. Default unless overridden.

in TANK_DEFINITION: baseCost (works like basemass, takes either a fixed amount or an amount * volume for cost per unit volume), overrides the MFSSETTINGS one for that TANK_DEFINITION.

in a MODULE: works as above, overrides the TANK_DEFINITION's.

in a TANK: cost: applies an extra cost per unit of volume of the tank (i.e. tank.maxAmount / tank.utilization) above and beyond base cost, just like mass vs basemass. Can also be done in a TANK override in a MODULE.

Proc Parts supports costPerKL in a ProceduralPart MODULE, which sets the cost per thousand liters, and costMultiplier in each Shape to multiply the costPerKL. Same for ProceduralSRB.

The RF cost is tallied (along with all RF resources' costs) and added to the base part cost (set by cost = foo in the cfg), and the Proc Part cost is added on top of that. For RP-0 we decided to make the base cost 0 for parts with RealFuels, since RF itself will add cost; the exceptioin is Proc Parts, which get a slight extra cost.

Oh, and parts that have a defined basemass (i.e. replica parts, like the Mercury pod or the Atlas core) also get to keep their normal cost, with RF added on top, so we can exactly replicate the cost of the stage (that's the HAS[~basemass[]] bit).

mecki: That's a good idea. I though the FAQ covered that, but it needs an update I guess.

Kesa: yeah, I probably should make RF do that too...

[Roikkeli]

Have i encountered a bug or is there something i'm missing? When i fill for example a Rockomax x200-32 tank with liquid oxygen it has dry weight of 480kg and wet weight of 18.74 tons. When i fill it with liquid methane the weights are 448kg dry and 30.28 tons wet. Isn't liquid methane supposed to have density less than half of liquid oxygen?

[GiantTank]

Hi,

I want to make the thrust cap for diameter of an SRB in PP higher. I asked on the PP thread, they said to go over here and ask since RF calculates thrust per diameter differently. So, how do I make thrust for diameter on a PP SRB higher? Thanks.

[Starwaster]

Have i encountered a bug or is there something i'm missing? When i fill for example a Rockomax x200-32 tank with liquid oxygen it has dry weight of 480kg and wet weight of 18.74 tons. When i fill it with liquid methane the weights are 448kg dry and 30.28 tons wet. Isn't liquid methane supposed to have density less than half of liquid oxygen?

It's supposed to....1.141 kg per kL vs 0.66 kg per kL.... let me see if I can repro what you're seeing.

Hi,

I want to make the thrust cap for diameter of an SRB in PP higher. I asked on the PP thread, they said to go over here and ask since RF calculates thrust per diameter differently. So, how do I make thrust for diameter on a PP SRB higher? Thanks.

I think you want thrust1m

I was playing around with making an Advanced SRB in keeping with the shuttle SRB or the ones proposed for Orion... it was quite a while ago but when I looked at the config, I found I had set thrust1m = 1500

[GiantTank]

It's supposed to....1.141 kg per kL vs 0.66 kg per kL.... let me see if I can repro what you're seeing.

I think you want thrust1m

I was playing around with making an Advanced SRB in keeping with the shuttle SRB or the ones proposed for Orion... it was quite a while ago but when I looked at the config, I found I had set thrust1m = 1500

Changed that in the RF stretchy cfg. I saw SRB and under it "max thrust". I changed that to 2k and the thrust still showed up at 1.3MN max, and 52 at part place. So, didnt work but thank you.

Edit: Scratch that, I need a way to make burn time less. Im going from 600 seconds to 500 (biiiiiiig rocket) which isnt enough for 1st stage. Any way to make the minimum burn time lower?

Edited January 22, 2015 by GiantTank

[starikki]

Bac9's P/Wing mod just added wing tanks, would this be supported soon?

[Northstar1989]

Hey Nathan, Starwasher, etc.

I thought the resource capacities of the Firespitter parts were fixed to hold real fuels instead of "LiquidFuel" and "Oxidizer". Yet...

Also, the Firespitter tweakable propellers still use LiquidFuel instead of Kerosene- meaning my only option for a tweakable propeller engine that actually works is the electric propellers...

It's important to note all this is in the dev version of Firespitter that was most recent as of 1/15/2015. As the Firespitter mod has still not made it to its next release, the dev versions on GitHub are the only ones that work in 0.90

Bac9's P/Wing mod just added wing tanks, would this be supported soon?

What are you talking about???

The creator of Procedural Dynamics/ PWings mod is DYJ, and there is no current mention of the implementation of "wet wings" (wings with integrated fuel tanks) anywhere in the changelog:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/29862-0-90-Procedural-Dynamics-Procedural-Wing-0-9-3-Dec-24

Regards,

Northstar

[regex]

What are you talking about???

The creator of Procedural Dynamics/ PWings mod is DYJ

bac9 has one in development.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/104966-0-90-B9-Aerospace-Procedural-Parts-0-21-Updated-22-01-15

[Starwaster]

Hey Nathan, Starwasher, etc.

I thought the resource capacities of the Firespitter parts were fixed to hold real fuels instead of "LiquidFuel" and "Oxidizer". Yet...

Also, the Firespitter tweakable propellers still use LiquidFuel instead of Kerosene- meaning my only option for a tweakable propeller engine that actually works is the electric propellers...

Regards,

Northstar

Post a list of only part names of parts that need fixing, tanks only, and maybe 'starwasher' will fix them. If he doesn't then I'll see if I can do it.

(RF doesn't do engines anymore; does someone else do an engine pack for FS?)

[FreeThinker]

@ NathanKell

I was wondering, why doesn't Real Fuels include a MM config which alters Fractals Interstellars OSR atmospheric resources Hydrogen & Oxigen to RealFuels LqdHydrogen & LqdOxigen?

That way, you can harvest these resource directly from the atmosphere with KSPI athmospheric Scoop, it could even be used to create Propulsive Fluid Accumulator Satellites which I have implemented in my KSPI Extented Config Mod

Please add the following script (or something similar) to your KSPI MM config file

@ATMOSPHERIC_RESOURCE_PACK_DEFINITION[InterstellarAtmosphericPack]
{

    @ATMOSPHERIC_RESOURCE_DEFINITION[KerbinOxygen]
    {
        resourceName = LqdOxygen
    }
    @ATMOSPHERIC_RESOURCE_DEFINITION[KerbinHydrogen]
    {
        resourceName = LqdHydrogen
    }
    @ATMOSPHERIC_RESOURCE_DEFINITION[JoolHydrogen]
    {
        resourceName = LqdHydrogen
    }
    @ATMOSPHERIC_RESOURCE_DEFINITION[LaytheOxygen] 
    {
        resourceName = LqdOxygen
    }
}

Also, I'm getting 4 Module Manager Errors when loading KSPI_RF.cfg

I first narrowed it down to the flowing MM code

//Specific part fixes
@PART[FNMethaneTank*]:HAS[@RESOURCE[LqdMethane]&@RESOURCE[Oxidizer]&!MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]]:NEEDS[WarpPlugin]:FOR[RealFuels]
{
    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleFuelTanks
        temp = 0
        volume = 0
        type = Cryogenic
        @temp = #$../RESOURCE[LqdMethane]/maxAmount$
        @temp *= 4.412
        @volume = #$../MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]/temp$
        @temp = #$../RESOURCE[Oxidizer]/maxAmount$
        @temp *= 5
        @volume += #$../MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]/temp$
        !temp = 0
    }
    !RESOURCE[LqdMethane] {}
    !RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
}

Inside this I found which one cause 4 error message during load:

@volume = #$../MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]/temp$ and 

@volume += #$../MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]/temp$

each cause 2 errors

Edit: Alright, I found a solution

Replace your "&" with ","

Apparently In 2.5.7 this was changed for fixing the science reports containing a "&"

fixed it should like this:

//Specific part fixes
@PART[FNMethaneTank*]:HAS[@RESOURCE[LqdMethane],@RESOURCE[Oxidizer],!MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]]:NEEDS[WarpPlugin]:FOR[RealFuels]
{
    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleFuelTanks
        temp = 0
        volume = 0
        type = Cryogenic
        @temp = #$../RESOURCE[LqdMethane]/maxAmount$
        @temp *= 4.412
        @volume = #$../MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]/temp$
        @temp = #$../RESOURCE[Oxidizer]/maxAmount$
        @temp *= 5
        @volume += #$../MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]/temp$
        !temp = 0
    }
    !RESOURCE[LqdMethane] {}
    !RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
}

Edited January 26, 2015 by FreeThinker

[Northstar1989]

@NathanKell

I've been working with FreeThinker on some more KSP-Interstellar/RealFuels compatibility, and functionality extensions to KSP-Interstellar itself (I've been testing a bit, and providing background/research, he's been coding). Sorry I didn't warn him you didn't want to be bothered about this particular cross-compatibility on this thread...

But, since the cat is already out of the bag, would you forgive me if I asked for help on figuring out how to implement the changes listed in this post to the integration config? I don't have any clue how to implement them- do you have any ideas? Dreadicon seems to have gone AWOL from the KSP Forums since early December of last year (his last post was December 4th), and I don't have the faintest clue how to do something like make the built-in fuel tanks within the KSP-Interstellar ISRU refinery insulated...

By the way, FreeThinker, maybe you'd have some interest in helping me mop up some of the remaining issues I posted in that post on Dreadicon's development thread some time ago? (not realizing he had just gone AWOL at that time, and wasn't merely away for a few days...)

Also, I tested out the Atmospheric Scoops from KSP-Interstellar just a little bit earlier, and I can confirm that they produce LiquidFuel and Oxidizer instead of LqdHydrogen and LqdOxygen (I posted screenshots of it in the post below the one I linked to). I *HIGHLY* recommend implementing FreeThinker's additional lines of code in the KSP-I_RF file of RealFuels- so far he's been right on the ball with all the coding he's done or suggested for KSP-I/RealFuels integration... Thanks for all your great work FreeThinker! Thanks for listening to me and not ban-hammering me NathanKell!

Further, I am experiencing an issue with the KSP-Interstellar Meth/LOX fuel tank- it appears to have no mass or fuel-capacity!

This may be fixed by the suggestion FreeThinker made earlier about replacing the "&" symbols with commas...

Additionally, the KSP-Interstellar (2.5 and 3.75 meter) "Pure Liquid Fuel" tanks are only carrying LiquidFuel instead of RealFuels propellants (these tanks were designed to carry large volumes of LiquidFuel as a feedstock for the Sabatier Reaction on Duna, and for KSP-I plasma thrusters. They're meant to hold large quantities of LqdHydrogen, basically, and should be insulated...)

Finally, none of the Mk3 spaceplane parts seem to hold RealFuels propellants instead of LF/O, and the C7 Aerospace adapter parts (new in 0.90) also don't carry RealFuels propellants...

I'm surprised those slipped through, considering they're stock...

Regards,

Northstar

- - - Updated - - -

bac9 has one in development.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/104966-0-90-B9-Aerospace-Procedural-Parts-0-21-Updated-22-01-15

P.S. That's AWESOME Regex! I took a look at Bac9's work, and am thinking about switching over to it from Procedural Dynamics once it gets a bit more mature...

- - - Updated - - -

Post a list of only part names of parts that need fixing, tanks only, and maybe 'starwasher' will fix them. If he doesn't then I'll see if I can do it.

(RF doesn't do engines anymore; does someone else do an engine pack for FS?)

@Starwasher

The following Firespitter parts need to be made to work with RealFuels, in addition to the parts I listed above:

FS2CF Passenger Fuselage (part folder is called "FS_crewFuselage")

FS3OT Oxidizer Tank (part folder is called "FS_oxidizerTank")

FS3J Jerry Can (part folder is called "FS_jerryCan")

Also, the following part from NovaPunch2, which is a fuel tank/engine hybrid, only holds LF/O in the fuel tank (does it get fixed here or in the engine configs?)

Odin Heat Shield (part folder is called "OdinShield" and is in the "Odin2" folder of the Parts folder of NovaPunch2)

Regards,

Northstar

Edited January 26, 2015 by Northstar1989

[Lurven]

Is there an easy way to stop make the fuels boil of with a module manager config, or do you manually need to set that for each fuel in the config? Or is there a true/false in some config?

Hope for answer

Really nice mod btw

[Raptor831]

@FreeThinker: It'd be really helpful for NathanKell and the rest if you submit a pull request for the edits you suggested. That way all they need to do is review it and accept it.

@Northstar1989: The new tanks probably just haven't been set up by anyone yet, since they are still new. There's a catch-all fuel tank file in the Stockalike download now, which will convert any tanks still using stock resources to it's RF tank type. It's not perfect, but it does in a pinch.

For the insulated tanks, you can write a MM config to add a Cryogenic tank instead of Default. That will make it insulated. Boiloff still happens, IIRC, but it's much less. And as for the hybrid engine/tank/heatshield (what kind of black magic is this!? ) those should probably be engine config territory. I'll add that part to my list for Stockalike.

@Starwaster: Stockalike doesn't touch FS engines specifically, but anything that uses LiquidFuel and IntakeAir should get converted to Kerosene/IntakeAir just to make things work in RF. Jets and props are kind of special anyways. AJE pretty much hits them all now, so I leave it to that mod personally.

[FreeThinker]

@FreeThinker: It'd be really helpful for NathanKell and the rest if you submit a pull request for the edits you suggested. That way all they need to do is review it and accept it.

Alright, so you mean that I fork RealFuels, make the nessesary changes and than submit a pull request, correct?

[Raptor831]

Alright, so you mean that I fork Real Fuel, make the nessesary changes and than submit a pull request, correct?

Correct. (10char)

[Northstar1989]

@Northstar1989: The new tanks probably just haven't been set up by anyone yet, since they are still new. There's a catch-all fuel tank file in the Stockalike download now, which will convert any tanks still using stock resources to it's RF tank type. It's not perfect, but it does in a pinch.

But I HAVE RealFuels+Stockalike installed. So clearly the tank catch-all MM patch didn't work???

For the insulated tanks, you can write a MM config to add a Cryogenic tank instead of Default. That will make it insulated. Boiloff still happens, IIRC, but it's much less. And as for the hybrid engine/tank/heatshield (what kind of black magic is this!? ) those should probably be engine config territory. I'll add that part to my list for Stockalike.

How do I actually add a Cryogenic, rather than Default, tank to a part?

Also, about the Firespitter propellers- I don't play with AJE, and have no intention to (the performance is nerfed too far back for jets for my taste- to 1970's tech instead of the current cutting-edge... I mentioned it to the AJE creator, and he suggested I create a current-tech alternate config: but that was/is a little beyond my capabilities at the moment, especially with all the work I've been doing trying to get KSP-I and RealFuels to play nicely together, and to try and fix the Mass Driver mod I released but is now broken....) But I want to be able to use them with Kerosene and RealFuels installed. Could you please throw a simple fuel-conversion into the Stockalike config for the remaining Firespitter engines Raptor?

Speaking of the last of those, would anyone here have an interest in helping me get my Mass Driver mod working for 0.90? I need somebody with some modding experience, who knows how 0.90 could possibly break a mod without any .DLL such as this (it's just a part that relies off a little-used Unity module to create acceleration, to my understanding...) I've asked for help everywhere, I even had the Kerbal Podcast team make an announcement that I needed help with it, yet nobody's come forward to help...

Regards,

Northstar

P.S. You can find the link to my (currently broken) Mass Driver mod pre-release in my signature, which I prematurely labeled as [0.90] simply because it loads and doesn't crash KSP in 0.90 (but it doesn't do anything in 0.90 other than act as dead weight!)

Edited January 27, 2015 by Northstar1989

[Raptor831]

But I HAVE RealFuels+Stockalike installed. So clearly the tank catch-all MM patch didn't work???

I only added it within the last week. Should be in v2.1.x. If you've got that, then it's obviously not working. I'll double check. You can drop a line over on the Stockalike thread if there's anything else you notice for that.

How do I actually add a Cryogenic, rather than Default, tank to a part?

Should just be changing "type = Default" to "type = Cryogenic" in the config.

..snip.. Could you please throw a simple fuel-conversion into the Stockalike config for the remaining Firespitter engines Raptor?

There should be a config (found here) that changes any ModuleEngine* to kerosene/LOX if it hasn't been touched by another config. This is supposed to include jets. I don't know of any reason why they shouldn't pick up any props. Does FS use a different engine module?

[Northstar1989]

I only added it within the last week. Should be in v2.1.x. If you've got that, then it's obviously not working. I'll double check. You can drop a line over on the Stockalike thread if there's anything else you notice for that.

I was running 2.0.6 before, but I just updated to 2.1.1, and it's still not working. So, it appears the tank catch-all doesn't work...

Should just be changing "type = Default" to "type = Cryogenic" in the config.

On which line of the config? A few lines of code here as a sample would be enormously beneficial...

There should be a config (found here) that changes any ModuleEngine* to kerosene/LOX if it hasn't been touched by another config. This is supposed to include jets. I don't know of any reason why they shouldn't pick up any props. Does FS use a different engine module?

Actually, yes. The Firespitter propellers use the FSengine (plane propellers) and FSengineBladed (helicopter propellers) modules.

Regards,

Northstar

[FreeThinker]

@FreeThinker: It'd be really helpful for NathanKell and the rest if you submit a pull request for the edits you suggested. That way all they need to do is review it and accept it.

Alright, I did the pull request

- - - Updated - - -

Should just be changing "type = Default" to "type = Cryogenic" in the config.

What bugs me is that in the Editor, it is not visible (at least I didn't see it) if a tank in a normal fuel tank or a cryostat tank. Am I missing something here?

Edited January 27, 2015 by FreeThinker

[Raptor831]

Alright, I did the pull request

What bugs me is that in the Editor, it is not visible (at least I didn't see it) if a tank in a normal fuel tank or a cryostat tank. Am I missing something here?

Sweet!

Yeah, in the VAB/SPH there's no visual signal that I remember to tell you. I just end up remembering that Default tanks contain these fuels, Cryo tanks contain the (insulated) tag on a lot of fuels, ServiceModule has ElectricCharge, etc.

You can alter the tanks though, and all of that is done within the ModuleFuelTanks.

For example, from B9: (comments mine)

    //-- snip --//
    MODULE {
        name = ModuleFuelTanks
        volume = 182

        // type here can be Default, ServiceModule, Fuselage, Cryogenic, Balloon, BalloonCryo, and some others. B9 created special ones
        type = B9_Rocket

        // add as many of these as you want, they'll be available in-game to switch.
        typeAvailable = B9_Rocket
        typeAvailable = B9_ServiceModule
    }
    //-- snip --//

You can do this with MM quite easily. So, for example, to add a Cryogenic tank to a particular part that already has a MFT:

@PART[some_part_name]
{
  @MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]
  {
    typeAvailable = Default
    typeAvailable = Cryogenic
  }
}

Normal MM rules apply, so be aware of what node you're dealing with so you don't overwrite something important. In this case, you'd be adding two new typeAvailable tags, which may or may not already exist. You have been warned.

[Northstar1989]

What bugs me is that in the Editor, it is not visible (at least I didn't see it) if a tank in a normal fuel tank or a cryostat tank. Am I missing something here?

It sometimes shows up for a tank in the part catalog on the right side (in the same column you'd see an engine's ISP and such) alongside the fuels it contains. More often, though, the only way to determine it is trial-and-error or by looking at the final version (after all MM patches have been applied) out-of-game (I forget how I did it, but I had to use the latter method to determine the built-in tanks in the KSP-I ISRU refinery were not insulated, after noticing cryogenic fuels produced with the refinery were boiling off far more quickly than they should have...)

Regards,

Northstar

Edited January 28, 2015 by Northstar1989

[JordanL]

Okay, so I've identified a mod compatibility bug, and I'm not sure if it's been reported, but I'm going to post it.

I have KCT and RF.

Basically, cryo fuels boil off DURING construction time, so for KEROLOX engine, I end up with full kerosene, and about 2/3 of my liquid oxygen. I'm not sure how this could be fixed, but I'm reporting this to KCT and RF.

[FreeThinker]

Yeah, in the VAB/SPH there's no visual signal that I remember to tell you. I just end up remembering that Default tanks contain these fuels, Cryo tanks contain the (insulated) tag on a lot of fuels, ServiceModule has ElectricCharge, etc.

I think there should be a line added the to Parts Gui which explicitly tell you what type Tank it is, if you allow me I can add this (to ModuleFuelTank) as well..

Edited January 28, 2015 by FreeThinker

[Sparker]

Is there some zero boil-off device for LH2?(Or maybe planned for future?) I'd like to use it for long missions.