Space engine and KSP. They'll be different but ksp could be much better

[crazyewok]

I've played this game far more than I've played any "random" game except maybe FTL, and that's just because I knew about FTL longer. I've still got so much to accomplish in this game I'm not even remotely concerned with the lack of randomness.

Yeah thats great but thats YOUR style of game play. If you dont like randomely generated solar systems then remain in Kerbal solar system but I want to go further!

[crazyewok]

No it doesn't. In KSP the challenge is building, launching and landing succesfully the rockets and spacecrafts that you create. It's a sandbox with a nice degree of simulation, not a rogue-like where everything must be randomized or else it "leads to boredom". Having a consistent solar system gives you the opportunity to master all the different techniques that you'll need if you don't want to fail miserably at the game. Plus, this is good for multiplayer, because all the players will play in the same playground, thus incresing the competition in a possible competitive multiplayer, and making things easier in a possible co-op.

Im ok with the same solar system but I want to go further.

But I guess this games just going to devolve into a multiplayer pit of stupidity. Why not sell the game to EA while they are at it.

[Kasuha]

Im ok with the same solar system but I want to go further.

But I guess this games just going to devolve into a multiplayer pit of stupidity. Why not sell the game to EA while they are at it.

You should try playing Elite or some of its followers. There are thousands of stars and planets to explore. Except after a while you realize they are all the same.

Planet Factory mod developers knew that. That's why they added planets which they added. They are no ordinary planets, each of them is special. To the level of being rather unrealistic. But even with that, you run out of these special treats quite soon.

The same with other star systems. You can get to one, you can get to any. It's irrelevant whether there are millions of them or just five. Next thing you'll be asking for are more galaxies.

Landing on hundreds of planets is not a challenge. You can land on one, you can land on any that is similar.

[SRV Ron]

Space Engine uses real world data for the known universe and random seeded number to fill in the gaps of the unknown universe. As such, the unknown planetary systems will also be random seeded as well as their surface features. By using the number seed, all star systems visited will always be the same for every player.

AS far as KSP, it is a simulator where you learn the construction and designing of space ships for flying to other worlds using known technology. Space Engine is strictly a universe exploration program where everything is reached using warp speed, more often then now, you click on the object and get sent there directly, no flying skills needed, no limited speed, no rocket designing, no time factor.

Space Engine uses a database of known and random seed generated data points. The only calculations take place when you enter a solar system at which point, all of the planets, moons, and other objects are traveling on rails in real or accelerated time. The slowdown will occur when that sim has to generate planetary details which also happens in KSP. That takes a lot of graphic processing for display.

KSP has to generate the physics for every object in your ship which takes a lot of CPU processing time.

Possibly one thing that can be incorporated in KSP from Space Engine would be the cloud cover on the worlds which is animated. Liquids are also animated as well.

A cold desert planet with atmosphere as viewed from the surface of a small asteroid;

A very rocket dwarf moon and asteroid orbiting a dead planet;

Edited January 15, 2014 by SRV Ron

[AlamoVampire]

Im ok with the same solar system but I want to go further.

But I guess this games just going to devolve into a multiplayer pit of stupidity. Why not sell the game to EA while they are at it.

Ya, no. This games charm is that it is unlike other games out there. This game is fine with what they are doing. Besides down the road they intend 3 gas giants and asteroids (see the planned features wiki). I'd rather they keep the tone and flavor they have. Not capitulate to the big name houses like you seem to suggest.

[FenrirWolf]

Yeah that is the big thing people keep missing. Procedural generation != randomly configured planetary systems.

[FenrirWolf]

Ya, no. This games charm is that it is unlike other games out there. This game is fine with what they are doing. Besides down the road they intend 3 gas giants and asteroids (see the planned features wiki). I'd rather they keep the tone and flavor they have. Not capitulate to the big name houses like you seem to suggest.

He's being facetious. He thinks multiplayer is bad for the game for some reason.

[SRV Ron]

Yeah that is the big thing people keep missing. Procedural generation != randomly configured planetary systems.

However, when done with the same seeded random number, the results will always be the same type and number of planets forming.

[FenrirWolf]

However, when done with the same seeded random number, the results will always be the same type and number of planets forming.

My point exactly. Both KSP and SE work this way.

Edited January 15, 2014 by FenrirWolf

[aeTIos]

Space Engine already crashes my PC so however much I would love this, I actually hope it won't happen or I have to say goodbye to KSP (andor buy a new computer which I don't have the money for)

[SRV Ron]

Space Engine already crashes my PC so however much I would love this, I actually hope it won't happen or I have to say goodbye to KSP (andor buy a new computer which I don't have the money for)

I have yet to crash either the three year old PC or the newer laptop. Do expect short freezes as SE generates terrain on various worlds.

A binary star system with a bloated yellow giant orbiting a companion black hole.

[crazyewok]

If the random generated maps are seeded then cant everyone be happy? Those that want to play the same map over and over again can and those that want randomness can get there way? Everyone happy then?

[iaureee]

Space Engine uses real world data for the known universe and random seeded number to fill in the gaps of the unknown universe. As such, the unknown planetary systems will also be random seeded as well as their surface features. By using the number seed, all star systems visited will always be the same for every player.

AS far as KSP, it is a simulator where you learn the construction and designing of space ships for flying to other worlds using known technology. Space Engine is strictly a universe exploration program where everything is reached using warp speed, more often then now, you click on the object and get sent there directly, no flying skills needed, no limited speed, no rocket designing, no time factor.

Space Engine uses a database of known and random seed generated data points. The only calculations take place when you enter a solar system at which point, all of the planets, moons, and other objects are traveling on rails in real or accelerated time. The slowdown will occur when that sim has to generate planetary details which also happens in KSP. That takes a lot of graphic processing for display.

KSP has to generate the physics for every object in your ship which takes a lot of CPU processing time.

Possibly one thing that can be incorporated in KSP from Space Engine would be the cloud cover on the worlds which is animated. Liquids are also animated as well.

A cold desert planet with atmosphere as viewed from the surface of a small asteroid;

http://i.imgur.com/t4PRtgk.jpg

A very rocket dwarf moon and asteroid orbiting a dead planet;

http://i.imgur.com/7u43ZB2.jpg

How many times will I have to repeat...

YES they might be different now

BUT SE IS GOING TO ADD REALISTIC SPACECRAFT WITH REALISTIC FLIGHT MECHANICS. Warping between planets is going to stay to the side as "planetarium" mode and I am talking about the actual GAME which is going to come

[Superfluous J]

How many times will I have to repeat...

YES they might be different now

BUT SE IS GOING TO ADD REALISTIC SPACECRAFT WITH REALISTIC FLIGHT MECHANICS. Warping between planets is going to stay to the side as "planetarium" mode and I am talking about the actual GAME which is going to come

You you want Kerbal Space Program, which is currently incomplete, to look more like what the also currently incomplete Space Engine will look like when it's complete?

I think it probably will.

[Wheffle]

Just thought I'd give my 2 cents...

I really, REALLY enjoy KSP specifically for the almost-realistic ship building, rocket flying and mission planning. I love the 1970's space program semi-cartoon art style. I love the little green Kerbals, and my wife thinks they are cute. Getting a rocket into orbit and thinking about all the hurdles that early real-life space programs had to overcome and thinking about the incredible majesty those first few astronauts must have experienced in space, that's why I love KSP. The accomplishment of my first flight that just skimmed out of the atmosphere for a few minutes, hearing the music change and seeing Kerbin below you... it deeply affected me way more that it should have.

Space Engine is really awesome, but it doesn't do what KSP does (and vice-versa, to be fair). They are both great pieces of software that I hope keep growing and improving indefinitely, but they have different purposes and I hope they stay focused on those purposes.

On a side note, I'm not sure that KSP would benefit too much from procedural generation (which is NOT random generation... for all those worried about everyone having different solar systems). Proc gen works great for creating functionally infinite universes to discover, but seeing as how KSP tries to use realistic technology, I doubt the vanilla game will leave the solar system any time soon, and there are relatively so few planets in a solar system that it's probably a better plan to hand-create each one.

[MR4Y]

People that like XYZ thinks that every other game is like XYZ. If ABC is not like XYZ, it should be like XYZ, because of these reasons on why XYZ is better than ABC, even though ABC is a completely different game with different goals altogether.

This is the sole reason on why not every gamer is qualified to be a game developer...

[TimMartland]

Unfortunately:

Detail on Space Engineers level is pretty much impossible for KSP

Rocketry simulation, detail and physics is impossible for Space Engine

[rkman]

I'm not sure that KSP would benefit too much from procedural generation

It already has that for planet surfaces (with manual art passes).

I doubt the vanilla game will leave the solar system any time soon

Squad might have changed its mind about it but other solar system were/are planned.

They even have said it would be procedurally generated (same universe for all), but they sure seem to have changed their mind about that, citing (imo unexplained) worries about randomness.

They could just hard code the seed numbers and leave changing it to modders. Imagine a ksp universe with a couple of hundred or a thousand procedurally generated solar systems (same universe for all). It will take forever to explore, so why would anyone prefer another universe with another couple of hundred or a thousand procedurally generated solar systems, except maybe for wanting different content without traveling great distances?

Edited January 18, 2014 by rkman

[MR4Y]

For all we know, Space Engine is not something that was made using a game engine(if someone can find proof or negative proof of this...I wasn't able). The creator of SE made it's own engine. This is not uncommon amongst developers that deserve to have more control, since engines might be limiting(Super Meat Boy has it's own engine as well).

So, we're talking about two things here. It's pretty much the same as requesting that motorcycles should have air conditioner because they work so well on cars.

[vexx32]

No, not really. If the creator(s) of SE made their own game engine, then that just means they are more experienced coder(s) than Squad are. You have to remember that before KSP, pretty much none of the developers here had attempted anything of this kind on this kind of scale. They're still learning as they're going, which basically means that eventually it could easily rival Space Engine for the pretty graphics and so forth, but not until the devs have enough experience to know how to do that without bringing computers to their knees.

[Whirligig Girl]

Space Engine is to a game as Unity is to KSP. Space Engine is just a tool for generating a universe. It happens to have ships in it now, but it will not be like KSP, and never will be. KSP will conversely not be like Space Engine.

[Unfawkable]

Holy crap, Space Engine is Eye-meltingly beautiful. I dream of seeing Kerbals in these graphics.

[PDCWolf]

Unfortunately:

Detail on Space Engineers level is pretty much impossible for KSP

Rocketry simulation, detail and physics is impossible for Space Engine

Space Engine is to a game as Unity is to KSP. Space Engine is just a tool for generating a universe. It happens to have ships in it now, but it will not be like KSP, and never will be. KSP will conversely not be like Space Engine.

Atmospheric flight simulation is already there. There's "modular spacecraft building" planed too. The fact that KSP is pretty much stalled into simplistic things because of the subpar target audience, dev's lack of experience or just bad choices doesn't mean every game works the same.

[MR4Y]

No, not really. If the creator(s) of SE made their own game engine, then that just means they are more experienced coder(s) than Squad are. You have to remember that before KSP, pretty much none of the developers here had attempted anything of this kind on this kind of scale. They're still learning as they're going, which basically means that eventually it could easily rival Space Engine for the pretty graphics and so forth, but not until the devs have enough experience to know how to do that without bringing computers to their knees.

And this is something that SE does to my laptop. I can run KSP, even in spite of all the bugs and performance issues, but not SE.

[regex]

I just checked out SE and, while I have to agree that the planets in KSP could use some extra work, I don't think it needs to be anywhere near the level of SE. Some volumetrics or appropriate fog would go a long way, especially on Eve.

Also, the lag in KSP is nothing next to the lag I get in SE during transitions.