Boats

[DaRocketCat]

Atmospheric planes, spaceplanes, and rockets all lie in the realm of aerodynamics and are part of the aerospace industry, which KSP centers on.

To put it bluntly, boats don't fly.

[technicalfool]

There's been a lot of boat threads, and air threads, and now there's mods that can give you both. I mentioned before that some selection of (rotary engine) + (drive mechanism) might be a good idea for getting electric or fuel/oxy/air powered engines to work with a selection of props and other rotary mechanisms. Engines would have a max torque value (or some kind of response curve) and a max rpm. Props, screws, turbines and ducted fans can use the same mechanism that stock jets and prop mods already do, with a heavy penalty for using aero drive parts in the water or marine drive parts in the air.

Electric engines are tiny, powerful but need huge amounts of electric power (maybe a generator part can be fitted to a fuel or nuke engine part, or cover the whole everything in RTGs and OX STATS). Fuel/nuke engines can vary in size and weight, up to comparable heavy rocket engine weights. Add in a small number of boat-oriented pontoons and hull pieces, and job's a good 'un. At least until the demands for a boatyard to go along with the bits come in, but that's really not as important as the parts. Players can build a mobile dry dock to carry the thing over KSC to the ocean or fire the thing off on a cake of solid boosters and parachutes.

Or, borrow a good modder's (or modders') code with appropriate credits and compensations. In any case, boats. After career, and after anything else really important, but boats. Pretty please?

Edited February 13, 2014 by technicalfool

[Nemrav]

I seriously dont see why people are so opposed to boats, BOATS CAN FLY (flying boats are a type of aircraft)... if anything allow seaplanes like in the firespitter pack.

but for now, try and find extremely crash tolerant parts and use them to make a boat and see how little to do there currently is in the ocean.

[Kasuha]

Well... flying boat is a plane. And surprisingly with the right approach they're possible in KSP too, although they look funny.

Edit: here

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Edited February 13, 2014 by Kasuha

[Red Iron Crown]

I seriously dont see why people are so opposed to boats, BOATS CAN FLY (flying boats are a type of aircraft)... if anything allow seaplanes like in the firespitter pack.

Because development resources are finite, and I think most players would rather see development time spent making more and better rocket parts, more and better detailed celestial bodies, better aerodynamics or just about anything spacecraft-related rather than boats. Simply put, I don't think many people play KSP and think, "Man, this game is cool but I really wish I could cruise around in a boat in it." For reference, see if you can find out how many nautical engineers or marine architects work at NASA or any other space program. I would be floored if the number hit double digits.

Boats belong in a mod, IMHO.

[Charzy]

For all the people saying "THIS IS KERBAL SPACE PROGRAM NOT BOAT PROGRAM BOATS DONT GO TO SPACE", can you tell me what the point of rovers is? Would you support the removal of rovers and rover parts so that we can have faster loading times going into the game, and a less cluttered utility tab?

[Capt Snuggler]

Because development resources are finite, and I think most players would rather see development time spent making more and better rocket parts, more and better detailed celestial bodies, better aerodynamics or just about anything spacecraft-related rather than boats. Simply put, I don't think many people play KSP and think, "Man, this game is cool but I really wish I could cruise around in a boat in it." For reference, see if you can find out how many nautical engineers or marine architects work at NASA or any other space program. I would be floored if the number hit double digits.

Boats belong in a mod, IMHO.

I agree with you there however I do think the definition of "boats" needs to be clarified. I think "boat parts", specifically for building Yachts and ships and such is well beyond the scope of KSP. (sorry guys)

BUT BUT BUT buoyant impact resistant flotation parts should be in the game. the water is there and its on several planets. we should be able to interact with it, rather than avoid it.

*edit: I would love little inflatable fenders on my Laythe rover, with a little propeller, to float across to other islands.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Capt Snuggler

[Kasuha]

BUT BUT BUT buoyant impact resistant flotation parts should be in the game. the water is there and its on several planets. we should be able to interact with it, rather than avoid it.

They are already there. Girders, for example. Or structural plates. Impact resistant to 80 m/s and perfectly buoyant.

So it is not about introducing impact resistant buoyant parts.

It is about introducing impact resistant buoyant parts which actually look like they are supposed to float.

[Capt Snuggler]

They are already there. Girders, for example. Or structural plates. Impact resistant to 80 m/s and perfectly buoyant.

So it is not about introducing impact resistant buoyant parts.

It is about introducing impact resistant buoyant parts which actually look like they are supposed to float.

Right, aesthetics is a big part, but there is more to it than that.

the part may be impact resistant but the connection and connected part are not. so dedicated buoyancy parts would also need to absorb the impact rather than transfer it through to the connected part. Dedicated buoyancy parts would also need to have less friction somehow? (maybe just in water?)

basically, soft floaty balloony things are real and are used in space exploration, so I feel this tool should be available to us in stock KSP.

[Kasuha]

the part may be impact resistant but the connection and connected part are not. so dedicated buoyancy parts would also need to absorb the impact rather than transfer it through to the connected part. Dedicated buoyancy parts would also need to have less friction somehow? (maybe just in water?)

I think there's no need for more impact absorption for water. If the ship can land on surface and explodes when landing in water at the same vertical speed, it is not because it is missing some kind of impact dampening. It is because water physics is weird.

[Tw1]

I agree with you there however I do think the definition of "boats" needs to be clarified. I think "boat parts", specifically for building Yachts and ships and such is well beyond the scope of KSP. (sorry guys)

This is a good point. I don't see any need to go adding anything beyond the basics for aquatic exploration. Like how rovers were made possible by the addition of wheels, to make a boat, you just need some sort of electric propeller (with swiveling capability, ideally) and possibly buoyant parts.

(Both of these are available as mods.)

We've got everything else.

Though in my experiance, control surfaces are too flimsy to make good rudders. Anything that touches the water while at speed must have a high impact tolerance, or it gets lost, due to the dodgy water physics.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Tw1

[Denodon]

Whilst I disagree that boats should be a part of KSP, I would like to see the ability to at least have some parts that you could attach to a capsule or rover to allow it to float upon the surface. This for example could be used to mirror the return of the Apollo capsule or as others have said landing a probe on Laythe. I don't see this as being a core game mechanic that needs to be in the game, it would be a nice bonus to have.

On another note lighter-than-air balloons for use on planets like Jool for atmospheric data collection might be interesting, though I do not know how that could be done.

[Capt Snuggler]

I think there's no need for more impact absorption for water. If the ship can land on surface and explodes when landing in water at the same vertical speed, it is not because it is missing some kind of impact dampening. It is because water physics is weird.

soft, buoyant, balloony things do absorb impact. I'm suggesting that they could be used as both, flotation devices and/or shock absorbing airbags.

*edit: as for the seemingly spontaneous "exploding" of parts moving through water. this would also need to be addressed somehow to allow all parts to move safely without exploding.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Capt Snuggler

[pizzaoverhead]

I see no one has mentioned the Titan Mare Explorer yet. This conversation is incomplete without it:

And then there's Sea Launch:

Of course, you can do all of this now with the Boat Parts mod, but it would be nice if buoyancy was fixed. Floating girders just look wrong...

Edited February 14, 2014 by pizzaoverhead
Added wiki link.

[Tw1]

Floating girders just look wrong...

What do you mean, I shouldn't be using them as floaties? (The flat I-beam makes quite a decent float, actually. )

That's a very good point about about the titan probe. The reason boats aren't featured in space travel so far... well, how many places have we been that you could use one?

[Shna_na]

I agree that water physics need some improvements and it would be nice to have some parts dedicated to landing and moving on or even under water. We don't need boats to move in space, but we need boats to explore planets on which we land.

What's in a name?

Shakespeare, I like it.

I see no one has mentioned the Titan Mare Explorer yet. This conversation is incomplete without it:

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/4/25/1335371334433/Artists-impression-of-pro-009.jpg

...

Of course, you can do all of this now with the Boat Parts mod, but it would be nice if buoyancy was fixed.

Floating girders just look wrong...

All of these are valid points. So the game is called Kerbal Space Program, not Kerbal Boat Program. We get that. But exploration on liquid is as important as exploration over land. When resources are added, how will you mine what is underwater? The drills certainly won't be long enough. We need boat parts to be able to ferry a resource derrick out into the middle of Laythe's/Eve's/Kerbin's oceans and retrieve this <colour> gold. And rovers on water, as seen in the last quote, are used/planned in real life, as are submarines on other bodies. Boat parts would be great. Also, you could ship your spaceplane from the space centre out across the ocean and to another area before flying it. It's a moving runway, which means that there's more diversity, less need for great skills with building long-distance planes, etc. I don't use Spaceplanes because they're more of a faff and less efficient than rockets, as well as being impractical. I'd use boats though. God would I use boats.

Inflatable bouncy floaty thingies would work great, too - Multi-use (buoyancy or litho-braking) parts are required (the RAPIER is a fine example).

[The Error]

Boats on Laythe or Eve? Why not add them so you can cruise around on Laythe and SCIENCE?

[Capt Snuggler]

Boat parts would be great. Also, you could ship your spaceplane from the space centre out across the ocean and to another area before flying it. It's a moving runway, which means that there's more diversity, less need for great skills with building long-distance planes, etc.

I also thought this, but in reality Space programs do not however build ships. aircraft carriers and yachts and ships are beyond the scope of KSP. while an aircraft carrier would make a great functional set peace on kerbin, but I don't think it should be built and driven by the player.

I don't use Spaceplanes because they're more of a faff and less efficient than rockets, as well as being impractical. I'd use boats though. God would I use boats.

Spaceplanes less efficient? hmmm, well ether way space programs do build space planes. so they are well within the scope of KSP.

Inflatable bouncy floaty thingies would work great, too - Multi-use (buoyancy or litho-braking) parts are required (the RAPIER is a fine example).

yeah, I think this is a fair compromise (combined with fixing the water impact damage). this would at least give you a broad complement of space friendly tools, to build all sorts of things, without lots of narrow functionality, boat only parts.

I would limit it to:

• tiny propeller (with gimble)
  
• small propeller (with gimble)
  

and:

• tiny radial inflatable
  
• small radial inflatable
  
• tiny inline inflatable
  
• small inline inflatable
  
• large inline inflatable
  

*inflatables would also serve a shock absorbers. see Lithobraking

combine this with structural parts already in the game, you could build anything.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Capt Snuggler

[Shna_na]

I also thought this, but in reality Space programs do not however build ships. aircraft carriers and yachts and ships are beyond the scope of KSP. while an aircraft carrier would make a great functional set peace on kerbin, but I don't think it should be built and driven by the player.

Spaceplanes less efficient? hmmm, well ether way space programs do build space planes. so they are well within the scope of KSP.

yeah, I think this is a fair compromise (combined with fixing the water impact damage). this would at least give you a broad complement of space friendly tools, to build all sorts of things, without lots of narrow functionality, boat only parts.

I would limit it to:

• tiny propeller (with gimble)
  
• small propeller (with gimble)
  

and:

• tiny radial inflatable
  
• small radial inflatable
  
• tiny inline inflatable
  
• small inline inflatable
  
• large inline inflatable
  

*inflatables would also serve a shock absorbers. see Lithobraking

combine this with structural parts already in the game, you could build anything.

Not quite anything. The lack of parts specifically boat-related is extremely limiting from an aesthetics and functional point of view. While I see your point about space programs not making boats, I'd like to point out that you are soon to be proven wrong. NASA plan to send submarines to Europa, as well as using, in essence, floating rovers (not sure what body).

[colmo]

My feeling is that they'll sort out the water, making boats possible in stock, once they've fixed aerodynamics. The drag model would be the same for water and air, just different values. They're both fluids, after all.

[MSD]

All space programs is done for science, they all train in water, they all use boats to retrieve capsules, and ... all water in kerbin is; in fact in space, and at the bottom of the oceaan there is a lot of science to be done. We should be allowed to explore it, for the same reason rovers are added.

Also I need some oceaan samples because... science!

[jwenting]

You can still make airplanes which can't leave Kerbin.

And how do you haul airplanes to Laythe, huh? By strapping them on top of a rocket. Same with boats. They'd be a pratical way to explore Eve and Laythe. Mostly Laythe.

And you can't make boats that go to space... You're using a strawman argument, which is all the "let's turn KSP into Kerbal boat program" can do.

[Capt Snuggler]

And you can't make boats that go to space... You're using a strawman argument, which is all the "let's turn KSP into Kerbal boat program" can do.

I believe MajorJim is launching his rebuttal right now...lol

but seriously, depending on your definition of "boats", yes, you can. dedicated ship/yacht/carrier building parts should not be in the game.

I wouldn't want to see lots of dedicated boat parts, but we should have some tools to traverse water. we have rover wheels. <--- this is not a strawman argument.

this seems a bit silly:

"we have sent men to in to space. walked on the surface of other worlds. ventured to the edge of the solar system... but for the love science DO NOT TOUCH THE WET STUFF!! we don't know what it is, and we don't want to know!"

if you would like to know more about spacecraft in water, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_Atlantis

Edited February 15, 2014 by Capt Snuggler

[Shna_na]

you can't make boats that go to space...

Yes you can. It's probably easier than sending a plane or a base into space. I'd guess that it's probably on about the same level as putting a medium-sized rover into space.

[Dodgey]

What are boats but rovers for the water. Honestly that's all they are. If someone can honestly tell me the difference between a boat (water rover) and the rover system we have now (land rover) I will be surprised, and I mean real difference, not some technicality.