easy for most but not me!

[MrUren]

Well i am trying to land on the mun and it seems like I run out fuel. And if I put more fuel on i can't get into orbit. If anyone wanna help me that would be great.

Btw this is on career mode. and not using any mods.

Thankyou in advance

Edited March 28, 2014 by MrUren

[KasperVld]

Thread moved to the Gameplay Questions forum. It would be great if you could give an indication what part of a Mun landing you're having trouble with

[EtherDragon]

Hi MrUren,

We all struggle with this at some point, even us amateur rocket scientists, and YouTubers.

From the fact you say that you run out of fuel, it could be essentially one of two things: Either your rocket design isn't up to the task, or your mission profile isn't efficient enough. Given what little you described, I'm willing to bet it's the former - the rocket design.

Rocket design is tricky stuff, with lots of counter-intuitive things going on that, in the end, affect your ability to complete the mission. So here are some tips:

1. Get rid of all non-essential empty mass. Why? Math, that's why! (Don't worry I won't bore you with rocket science equations, just the layman's end results...)

The math tells us that for every bit of extra non-fuel mass we take with us, our Delta-V (a fancy word describing what, in the end, our rockets can actually do) goes down. Basically, the more "junk" you bring, the less far you can go - and the more likely you are going to be stuck half-way there without any fuel.

2. In a multi-stage mission, each and every stage must be able to complete its task without relying on fuel from later stages. If any stage can't do this - it's time to redesign that stage (and likely any stages before it to account for the change).

Practically, this means that if your ascent stage is meant to get your Mun ship into Kerbin orbit all by itself, but you end up having to use some fuel from your Mun ship to finish getting into orbit around Kerbin - your ascent stage is incorrectly designed. Make sure that each stage can do its job without help from a later stage.

That might get you started for now, if you have more specific questions, ask here.

[ArmchairGravy]

Where are you in the tree? If you don't have Skippers unlocked Mun landings are very hard to pull off due to the fuel you need to de- and re-orbit. Minmus is much easier to do with 45's and 909's.

[EtherDragon]

I should also point out, this stuff is never "easy for most" We've all climbed the learning curve, just like you are.

[Claw]

No Way! You definitely don't need skippers to get to the Mun. Although I will agree that Minmus is a better target to aim for first if you are having a hard time. It takes a little bit more fuel to get there, but everything else after that is easier (and requires less fuel).

Anyway, there are tons of videos out there if watching videos helps you out. Here is a

by a fairly popular KSP player, but he goes to Minmus in this one. It's a bit long at 38 minutes.

Here is another video of someone going to the Mun with the demo version, which might be handy if you are still early in the tech tree. Plus this video is only about 9 minutes long.

Like EtherDragon said, a big key point (in my opinion) is to go with very little equipment with you. Once you get some practice, it gets a lot easier and you can bring more stuff.

And don't worry, this game is certainly not easy for everyone to start off with. Once you get more experience/practice, it gets easier to design.

GOOD LUCK!!

[Sirrobert]

Watch this

Or this

Which is way more detailed

[MKI]

Besides going to minimus first, I suggest making your lander smaller, but just as functional. Smaller payload means your fuel is used more efficiently, so you can get further with it.

All posts are very helpful, watch some vids and good luck!

[Kryxal]

Say, what sort of craft are you using anyway? We could probably help with a redesign, but what you can do depends on what parts you have to do it with.

I actually have a quick-and-dirty Mun lander that works fairly well:

The initial boosters are overpowered (even without using the regular engines), and stage 3 is a bit high on delta-v, but it works!

Edited March 28, 2014 by Kryxal

[GoatRider]

Hmm, you have the goo pod covering up the doors of the science jr. I guess I knew you could do that, but it just doesn't seem right.

[Vanamonde]

The third ship in the first post of this thread is a moon ship you can download. It's capable of roundtrips to the moons, and uses only parts from tiers 0-3.

[Superfluous J]

I go to Mun and back in a 2-parter in my series, with pretty low tech. I'm not sure exactly how much but it's something like 5 or 6 tech nodes unlocked total.

Note: This was in 0.22 which had slightly different science mechanics, but the ship would work just as fine in 0.23

[MrUren]

Thankyou guys a big help ill be watching the vids in a sec. I dont really want to land just get there and back for the science.

Here is my craft... (so far)

Here is the tech tree.. (again so far)

[Kryxal]

Hmm, you have the goo pod covering up the doors of the science jr. I guess I knew you could do that, but it just doesn't seem right.

I would have been happy to not do so, but then things would have been a bit off-balance (there's another goo you can't see on the far side).

Incidentally, I usually don't bother to detach the last fuel tanks and rockets, I just extend the legs if I'm coming down on land...

[WindShieIds]

I might be an average mechjeb user, but in my career time the one thing I learned was this.

The best way to make an efficient landing vehicle is to have it like this, in the centre you have your average 1.25M fuel tank and engine, then you want a set of six decouplers on the outside where you should add more 1.25M fuel tanks, then hook them up to the central system, if this is a single lander and return vehicle in one, I recommend you add another stage after that just to de orbit after you reach H.K.O (High Kerbin orbit)

This is purely a design tip.

Also, try not to be too ruthless on your engines, only burn when you need too.

[Sirrobert]

Thankyou guys a big help ill be watching the vids in a sec. I dont really want to land just get there and back for the science.

Here is my craft... (so far) http://b9.raptrcdn.com/img/screenshots/orig/a08755b660689c8258456cc930a4361a.a0f370f0cff0c0e8a5c839449b70fc57.jpeg

Here is the tech tree.. (again so far)

http://b2.raptrcdn.com/img/screenshots/orig/a08755b660689c8258456cc930a4361a.6dacdcde1599ba78c1bd94fe7efdc959.jpeg

Based on your tech tree, you have fuel lines.

Use them, they will make your life a whole lot easier

[Dust]

I strongly recommend installing a mod that tells you the delta v in your build. Kerbal Engineer Redux is excellent, since it tells you about each stage. Your delta v budget should look something like this (off the top of my head):

- 4,500 for Kerbal orbit

- 800 for Munar transfer and capture

- 600 for deorbit and landing

- 600 for ascent to Munar orbit

- 300 for transfer home

Less than 7,000 total, and that's overbuilding.

So if you put ~4,500 dV total into your ascent stages, 800-1000 dV into your Munar transfer stage, and 1,200 dV in the lander you should be good. Make sure TWR is about 2 in the lower Kerbin atmosphere, and at least 1.2 for your upper atmosphere "gravity turn" part of your ascent.

If you're still running out of fuel come back here with details about your flight plan and we'll help you out with tips to improve your efficiency.

[cantab]

Thankyou guys a big help ill be watching the vids in a sec. I dont really want to land just get there and back for the science.

Here is my craft... (so far) http://b9.raptrcdn.com/img/screenshots/orig/a08755b660689c8258456cc930a4361a.a0f370f0cff0c0e8a5c839449b70fc57.jpeg

Hard to see, but it looks like something might be off on your top stage.

Also, you might try moving the main engine up a stage, so it only fires after you drop the boosters. The three BACCs have plenty enough thrust on their own I reckon. You don't want to go too fast on the ascent or you waste fuel fighting drag.

In any case, if you just want to orbit the Mun and Minmus, you don't need much at all. A spacecraft consisting of the parachute, Mk 1 pod, FL-T200 tank and LV-909 is more than enough to get from low Kerbin orbit to Munar, Minmus, and even Duna orbit and back. Key is to get it into LKO without using its own fuel. The rocket you've shown would do the job I reckon.

[helaeon]

I like to develop my lander, transfer craft, and booster separately and in that order.

Do what dust says but add 15-20% more because you're just learning how to fly these things and you'll be happy for the extra fuel and error room.

The lighter the lander the better off you are. You want to use engines that have an ISP of 370 or better and still give you a TWR of 2 or better on the Mun. Less and flying it is very difficult and not forgiving of error. You can land with enough deltaV and a TWR that is just north of 1... but hard. Keep in mind too though your TWR being too high makes controlling your landing velocity very difficult because you're sitting in a little sliver at the very bottom of your throttle just tapping the engine on. Which btw, if you bind "toggle engine" to your brakes action group, you can shut down your engines by right clicking on them then when you hit your brakes button it will turn on your engines at the current throttle setting for as long as you hold the button down then shut them down again instantly when you release (just like hitting the x button, but you don't need to keep throttling up either you can tap the engines if you need). Sometimes its a handy way to fly.

Also the squatter you can build your lander the better off you are. Tall and skinny likes to fall over. Squat ones tend to fall into position. If you're having trouble falling over put a SAS unit as low on the lander as you can then the torque will help keep you in position. (Also set toggle ladder to your action group with your landing gear toggle. It's handy.). It's also nice to put a MK1 light facing directly down so you can get an idea of your altitude visually.

[Starstrider42]

Keep in mind too though your TWR being too high makes controlling your landing velocity very difficult because you're sitting in a little sliver at the very bottom of your throttle just tapping the engine on.

You can get around this by right-clicking on the engine and setting the throttle limiter. I like to set LV-909s or 48-7S to something like 30-50% throttle... this lets me control my descent speed pretty well (hovering happens at 4-5 presses of the shift key), while still giving me enough extra thrust that I can abort the landing if I realize I've screwed up.

[Specialist290]

I like to develop my lander, transfer craft, and booster separately and in that order.

I agree with this, and I'm going to take a little bit of time to elaborate on it.

What I'll do is break up the mission into a series of discrete "steps." For instance, for a Mun landing, I break it down like this:

1. Launch from KSC
   
2. Achieve orbit around Kerbin
   
3. Extend orbit out to Mun encounter
   
4. Burn to get captured by Mun and / or circularize
   
5. Descend to the Mun's surface and land
   
6. Relaunch from the Mun and achieve orbit
   
7. Burn to return to Kerbin
   
8. Reenter atmosphere and land on Kerbin
   

Then I'll think about what sort of craft / module / stage I want for each step in the process, and whether I can simplify a bit. (For instance, for a simple direct ascent mission to the Mun, the lander can probably do all the last 4 steps by itself.) Then I'll design specific components intended to complete different parts of the mission, working from the bottom up.