I'm sorry, I... I just don't like ARM... :(

[cantab]

Ermagherd, guise. Look at these SSTO's... T_T

Yep, yep yep yep yep yep yep yep.

They're just sillyness though. You can SSTO a launch chair with the .625 m parts.

[Red Iron Crown]

They're just sillyness though. You can SSTO a launch chair with the .625 m parts.

I don't think it's debatable that the new engines provide greater SSTO capabilities than any previous single engine type.

[Ziff]

They're just sillyness though. You can SSTO a launch chair with the .625 m parts.

You can do that with a Jumbo 64 tank and a skipper engine. Not exactly a big deal.

Edit: I'm pretty sure you can also do it with a FL-T800 and an LV909 engine, if you're only launching a chair.

Edit Edit: I just circularized a 75km orbit with 10 liquid fuel left with nothing but a FL-T800, LV-909, a Chair, a Kerbal, and a probe core (just so I could reorient the gimbal view.)

Edited April 5, 2014 by Ziff

[LaydeeDem]

You can do more with nothing but decouplers.

[Felsmak]

You can do more with nothing but decouplers.

-snip.

It looks like the smoke effect just bugged out, but I like to think that the impact actually generated a biblical explosion.

[Red Iron Crown]

Decouplers are overpowered! Nerf them!

Edit: Wow, wanted that to be all caps but the forum keeps fixing it.

[Mischief]

None of your points are relevant to the balance of the new parts.

All that was needed to reduce part count for large lifters was bigger engines, bigger tanks, and a reduction in the number of struts required. If the SLS engines were balanced all those things would still be there.

I guess I'm at a bit of a loss here - that's exactly what the new parts do? I still use all the same parts I always did. Skippers, Mainsails, every tank type depending on what I'm building. Now however I can reduce the number of Mainsail + stacked silver tanks I have to put on for the same lift. I've still got a Mainsail in the center of the bloom, just now he's got 4 LFR KR 1x2s instead of 6 more stacked silvers and a mainsail. I've got 2 KD25ks on each instead of 6 of the older SRBs.

The dV I'm getting for putting 120T into orbit is about the same. Tiny difference. The fuel costs and effort to get one of the huge, heavy new parts to Eve isn't worth it - you're better off going with a super-efficient design.

I don't know about ion engines; I haven't unlocked them yet. All I'm seeing from the stats though is that they're now useful for ferry work and high-speed probes (asteroid intercepts prior to entering Kerbins SOI for example), they're not just an unlimited fuel toggle for existing systems.

The rest of it is just combined systems. The KR 1x2 is a bit more powerful than a Mainsail but can't stack, doesn't fit well against other parts and saves 2 tons. I can't put one central but as a radial lift booster it's generally a better choice - more space-efficient in that regard. The 25x4 cluster has an 8% thrust increase over 2x Mainsails but requires special fuel tanks and isn't going to fit mounted directly under another stage.

Are they better? Absolutely. A little bit, but yes. For very specific roles and designs. Same with nuke engines though - or wings, canards and lift elements. Same with wheels, lights and solar cells. In general the upgrades are flat out superior but there are still niches for the prior parts.

Have no issue with it. If you do I understand, maybe it's an issue for your playstyle. For me though I've run into no trouble, they don't feel OP'ed, none of it seems significantly more easy other than less total parts and more stable rockets (without an extra 100 struts).

[Red Iron Crown]

I think just about everyone agrees that the reduced part counts enabled by larger parts and reduced strutting requirements are a good thing.

[Jouni]

I don't know about ion engines; I haven't unlocked them yet. All I'm seeing from the stats though is that they're now useful for ferry work and high-speed probes (asteroid intercepts prior to entering Kerbins SOI for example), they're not just an unlimited fuel toggle for existing systems.

They are relatively good lander engines now. I landed a 2-kerbal lander can on Mun with 7 ion engines. What I didn't understand before the attempt was that if you have many ion engines, batteries actually become your fuel tanks. I had two of the biggest Z-4K batteries, but four would have made the landing much easier.

[ScottyDoesKnow]

I enjoy the ARM update. It's made the game significantly better. I had to start my Career mode over, which stings, I had a 16 ship fleet getting ready for a departure to Duna to set up a 40 Kerbal science and mining colony. Now I've got to start all over and I'll do it better this time. I'm still finding 90-120t payloads to be my upper limit before I start running into construction issues but I can make the assembler to get me there with less parts.

I think you're understating how easy it is to put large payloads in orbit now. If you check my signature I built a 640t payload lifter that's 124 parts if you take off all the bells and whistles. It required very little effort as well, it's got one stage that drops the outer ring and that's it. Later on I Alt + clicked and added a bunch more stages on and put 1600t in orbit without any real design consideration. I think making it this easy promotes bad design, because why create an efficient ship when it's so easy to build something larger that you know has more than enough.

[Superfluous J]

I think you're understating how easy it is to put large payloads in orbit now. If you check my signature I built a 640t payload lifter that's 124 parts if you take off all the bells and whistles. It required very little effort as well, it's got one stage that drops the outer ring and that's it. Later on I Alt + clicked and added a bunch more stages on and put 1600t in orbit without any real design consideration. I think making it this easy promotes bad design, because why create an efficient ship when it's so easy to build something larger that you know has more than enough.

Unless I'm mistaken, your 650t lifter is with 0.23 parts, and you were able to expand it to 1600t "without any real design consideration." And there is no detriment in the game to just using that to lift anything into space. The problem that you're describing as new in 0.23.5 has been around forever and won't be resolved until some sort of economics comes into play.

Edited April 5, 2014 by 5thHorseman

[ScottyDoesKnow]

Unless I'm mistaken, your 650t lifter is with 0.23 parts, and you were able to expand it to 1600t "without any real design consideration." And there is no detriment in the game to just using that to lift anything into space. The problem that you're describing as new in 0.23.5 has been around forever and won't be resolved until some sort of economics comes into play.

What do you mean? The 640t (and 1600t) lifter is all 0.23.5 parts, the new tanks and engines. In 0.23 I did manage to get up to 1200t but it was a ton of effort and nearly 3000 parts.

[Superfluous J]

What do you mean? The 640t (and 1600t) lifter is all 0.23.5 parts, the new tanks and engines. In 0.23 I did manage to get up to 1200t but it was a ton of effort and nearly 3000 parts.

Sorry. I clicked on your two links to open them in new windows backwards (Behemoth first, Heavy Lifter second) but then when I looked at them I thought I had opened them the other way around.

I still don't think that getting lots of stuff into space easier is a bad thing, and I still think that there was nothing keeping people from overengineering stuff before 0.23.5 came out, but I retract my incorrect example.

[Seret]

I think just about everyone agrees that the reduced part counts enabled by larger parts and reduced strutting requirements are a good thing.

But is bigger better when it comes to designing rockets? If you're using too many parts and having to use buckets of struts you should probably be starting from scratch instead of trying to nurse a dodgy design IMO.

[Vanamonde]

Removed a number of off-topic posts. Keep the discussion to the subject, okay guys?

Also, if you have a problem with something, please just hit the 'report' button on the post and let the mods take care of it. If you reply instead, that just adds to the nonsense everyone has to wade through to follow the discussion.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Vanamonde

[O-Doc]

I love the new update. I'm actually spending time in the VAB. Those pancakes were not doing it for me. Now I've got me some gorgeous long, slender rockets that, actually feel like rockets. Who would have thought that KSP would turn out to be a game about building rockets?

[LethalDose]

I just had the chance to spend a few hours with the ARM update in a fresh career mode game and I really like the changes made to the tech tree. Since Skippers have been moved up a tier, it's easier to launch 2.5m parts way earlier, which means you can get science labs up earlier, which means labs are more useful.

Getting mainsails and Jumbo tanks earlier as well is also a lot of fun.

I don't have an opinion yet on whether or not the engines need to be balanced, but I'm sure the devs will get to that "Soon".

[Red Iron Crown]

But is bigger better when it comes to designing rockets? If you're using too many parts and having to use buckets of struts you should probably be starting from scratch instead of trying to nurse a dodgy design IMO.

I'm not necessarily in the "bigger is better" camp, but for those launching large payloads the bigger parts reduce part count in a meaningful way. I don't think that's a bad thing.

As for struts, my experience with the stronger joints so far indicates that good designs barely require any struts at all now, and the number required for less structurally sound designs is far lower. I think this is almost universally a good thing, for those that enjoy building it's the other parts that are fun to put together and strutting is more of a chore. And the struts add to the part count without really adding anything interesting to the gameplay, for me at least.

[Caelib]

It really seems like if you make a big rocket out of like 6 SLS parts, up you go into orbit with a 90 ton payload. Giggleplex did it. It's just too easy. Nerf stuff, pleeeees...

I guess I don't have the right to complain...

If you don't like something, don't use it. If you think something is too easy, stop using fuel lines.

[Frank_G]

I am with you Red Iron Crown. The ARM add-on offers a lot of under the hood upgrades and much more solid performance in lots of aspects. If one doesnt like a part... Why simply not use it?

There is also a little mod by Bob Fitch that allows part sorting in the editor. So if one likes, the NASA parts could be hid with the click of a button.

And when missions and payloads get more complex over time, there is much more to think of, than how to get stuff of the ground. The new 3.75m parts and the more powerful engines are pretty much welcome.

[kola2DONO]

I agree with the asteroids, i just got a station i worked 5 hours on destroyed by an asteroid.

thoose things are annoying, i also feel that now since we have so big parts... rockomax just feels dead, and that's kind of sad.

I don't really like the new thing that adds flags on almost every single part. i do not want that.

[Hyomoto]

I agree with the asteroids, i just got a station i worked 5 hours on destroyed by an asteroid.

thoose things are annoying, i also feel that now since we have so big parts... rockomax just feels dead, and that's kind of sad.

I don't really like the new thing that adds flags on almost every single part. i do not want that.

There is a simple solution for you. Revert to an earlier update, do not continue with further updates. That way, you can exist in a vacuum. By the way, you can right click parts to remove flags, and to counter your spot I was wholly pleased with the flags. The only thing I would do different is default them to off instead of on so I can decide which parts I want them on, rather than which parts I don't. See? That's how you give an opinion. It's called being constructive instead of being melodramatic.

[ScottyDoesKnow]

I agree with the asteroids, i just got a station i worked 5 hours on destroyed by an asteroid.

thoose things are annoying, i also feel that now since we have so big parts... rockomax just feels dead, and that's kind of sad.

I don't really like the new thing that adds flags on almost every single part. i do not want that.

What happened to the station? A collision in space is a near impossibility, though I have heard people say they've had asteroids spawn in captured equatorial orbits.

With the flags, the only thing that bothers me is it doesn't affect the whole symmetry. If I don't want them on my six boosters I have to turn them off six times.

There is a simple solution for you. Revert to an earlier update, do not continue with further updates. That way, you can exist in a vacuum. By the way, you can right click parts to remove flags, and to counter your spot I was wholly pleased with the flags. The only thing I would do different is default them to off instead of on so I can decide which parts I want them on, rather than which parts I don't. See? That's how you give an opinion. It's called being constructive instead of being melodramatic.

That's pretty harsh Hyomoto. I know people are getting worked up in all these ARM threads but no need to go off on the guy.

[ExplodingRocketShips]

It's almost like the poor Kerbals are enduring the smite of some sort of deity, out there with a hatred for Kerbalkind...

I would say you were the deity, but I'm too nice for that.

Anyways, I disagree. The 3.75m parts go well with mods like Novapunch and KW Rocketry, For one.

Oh, and the asteroids are awesome.

[Francesco]

I have heard people say they've had asteroids spawn in captured equatorial orbits.

Accidental negative Minmus slingshot? Lol