Should KSP have a Delta-V readout?

[Red Iron Crown]

Paying to unlock dV information is not a good solution to my mind. We already have the information to calculate it manually from day 1, why make us do so? Making it unlockable just puts the players who want that information (which is derived from already available information) back in the situation of calculating manually or using external tools or mods.

[rkman]

Depends on when it is unlocked. I think it is helpful for people to figure out how to reach orbit without dV information. That is not difficult and very educational as it helps with developing some rocketry intuition.

As long as dV readout is unlocked early, i don't see a problem with it being initially locked.

[Pthigrivi]

Yeah if its based on engineer training I could see it balanced to kick in around level 3, or right around the time you start mounting interplanetary missions. This is when you first start to really need it.

[klgraham1013]

Obviously it doesn't need it, as we are all having fun without it...

Don't spread lies about me.

- - - Updated - - -

By placing the dv readout in the difficulties menu, it implies that dv readouts are for casual players. For, surely, the more hardcore would play with less information. At least, from a new players point of view.

I would prefer a realism menu. Especially if they're keeping an option for poor aerodynamics. We could even throw life support and RemoteTech in that menu as well.

[Robotengineer]

I guess this isn't a necro as it is relevant to recent info? KSP doesn't need a stock ∆v calc, as it would probably only be a single number. Unless it has per-stage readouts and other useful info, I don't see the point of having a stock one. Squad should refer noobs to useful mods instead of attempting to make in-house something that a mod does already better than the stock implementation would.

[Wahgineer]

maybe how it should work is like this: Delta-V readouts are connected to the R&D building level (Hence the R(research)). The tire 1 (or barn tier in 1.0) R&D doesn't have allow delta v read out, since you likely wont need it this early on. After you unlock tier 2 R&D, you get a delta-V readout in the VAB. But there, and only there, can you see the Delta-V. To see it in flight, you need to have a sufficiently trained engineer and/or sufficient probe core. They not only display the Delta-V in flight, they can perform on the fly calculations, so you know exactly how much you have.

[Red Iron Crown]

I guess this isn't a necro as it is relevant to recent info?

That is exactly right. Necroposts aren't bad in and of themselves, only ones that add nothing to the thread are.

KSP doesn't need a stock ∆v calc, as it would probably only be a single number. Unless it has per-stage readouts and other useful info, I don't see the point of having a stock one.

We don't know that. If it is anything like the dV readout in KerbalEDU it will be per-stage, I certainly hope that the stock implementation is similar.

Squad should refer noobs to useful mods instead of attempting to make in-house something that a mod does already better than the stock implementation would.

Except we don't know what percentage of players actually mod, and we don't know what the stock implementation will be (how can you know it will be worse than a mod?). I would hazard a guess that less than half of players mod, but that's only a guess (as is any number, we don't have hard data).

[Spartwo]

I guess this isn't a necro as it is relevant to recent info? KSP doesn't need a stock ∆v calc, as it would probably only be a single number. Unless it has per-stage readouts and other useful info, I don't see the point of having a stock one. Squad should refer noobs to useful mods instead of attempting to make in-house something that a mod does already better than the stock implementation would.

Did you say that about the wing parts, subassemblies, resources, jets, a crew manifest, rover wheels, or many others?

[Darnok]

I was thinking about performance of dv, while mechjeb is calculating dv almost live it must have impact on performance. But during flight I don't really need it updated so often. If we would have delta-v messages send from KSC every 10-20 seconds during flight it should be good.

Informations send from KSC could be shown as messages/chat from mission control like: "90 seconds of flight, your current delta-v is 1200m/s".
And every 10 seconds we would get new message with dv update, of course only until we reach orbit. Then game UI should allow player to ask KSC about his ship stats on his request and KSC should send dv update each time new maneuver node is created.

[Armisael]

Delta-v calculations are way faster than the physics calculations happening every physics tick anyways.

If you want to only get delta-v updates every 15 seconds for other reasons then fine - it's your game - but don't expect a meaningful change in performance.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Armisael

[mattinoz]

I'd support anything that enhances the sense of that there are active kerbals. 

Why not go further with the idea. That mission control relay all sorts of timely information. 

[CaLVin-K]

1 hour ago, mattinoz said:

I'd support anything that enhances the sense of that there are active kerbals. 

Why not go further with the idea. That mission control relay all sorts of timely information. 

Uhhhhhhh Jeb, you've become detached from the rest of your rocket, my the kraken (or Scott Manely) help you. 

[Darnok]

6 hours ago, mattinoz said:

I'd support anything that enhances the sense of that there are active kerbals. 

Why not go further with the idea. That mission control relay all sorts of timely information. 

That is why I used word "stats", because we could have message about current delta-v and fuel every 10% is burned, once we are orbiting.

[Harry Rhodan]

Would you replace the fuel gauge in a car and replace it by a message every 10%? This wouldn't improve the performance at all and at the same time be extremely irritating.

[Wjolcz]

It should be displayed all the time.

[John JACK]

5 hours ago, Harry Rhodan said:

Would you replace the fuel gauge in a car and replace it by a message every 10%?

It would be a motorcycle than.

Regarding OP. KSP has no stock dV readout yet, so suggesting to nerf it is kinda pointless. And dV calculation is (for computer) simple math, it does not affect performance that much.
All readouts and telemetry in KSP updates in real time. Why dV should be different?

[sal_vager]

Pinned for May's TOTM!

[Waxing_Kibbous]

I think a good second to a proper dV readout is @TriggerAu Alternate Resource Panel which at least shows fuel per stage.

[Pds314]

Yes, and not only that, it should be available in early career mode. Like literally in the editor on your first launch and onscreen when available. This and TWR are like literally the only useful math problems a crappy 1940s circuit can calculate knowing nothing but how much fuel you have and what the craft weighs empty. You don't need the tracking station or anything. This isn't like patched conics or accurate SAS where there could be any sort of realistic reason to put it later in the game. Delta V readout should be always available.

As for what should come further down the tech tree:

#1. Basic avionics. After not too long, there should be available things like altitude hold, cruise, etc for airplanes and thrust balancing for rockets. The latter does in fact already exist if you use RCS thrusters set to respond to throttle controls and then set the SAS.

#2. Advanced avionics. Control systems that get more complicated and allow, for example, control over unstable aircraft or aircraft at high AOA and sideslip should be available later in the tech tree. They would also include things like sophisticated VTOL controls and integration between VTOL and flight control. These wouldn't so much be autopilots as pilot augmentation systems. Systems that allow you to fly things that simple unaugmented keyboard or joystick controls wouldn't easily work for. I.e. advanced fly by wire.

3. Aerodynamic Trajectory prediction. This is extremely useful, but should come later in the tech tree. It should compensate for things like mach number, temperature, pressure, etc, based on current aerodynamic effects or those averaged over several seconds.

4.One of the tracking station upgrades should allow one to view the closest approach in a static reference frame, with engine control markers to move the closest approach, and possibly a SAS mode to automatically align within a specified range of distances (or, set the minimum approach to something huge to ensure that the other thing won't reach you.) This could work in the atmosphere too, and would allow automated intercepts, and automated avoidance (make sure the craft encounters the target by over 500 meters, but under a trillion meters).

Edited May 2, 2016 by Pds314

[Reactordrone]

I'm not fussed if it's not there. I've always done back of envelope calculations for delta-v where I need to and I find it quite enjoyable to punch up numbers mid flight to see if I can squeeze another biome hop out of a lander or optimising fuel loadouts for ISRU landers.

[MsieurDionne]

I think that this information should be calculated by an engineer or an advanced probe core. As many have pointed out, figuring things out is the funniest/most frustrating part of early games.

[pandaman]

A big YES to stock Dv readouts.

That said, I don't think just integrating KER, or any other mod, is the right approach.  Squad need to ensure that its right and accurate for starters, or face the wrath of disgruntled players.

[regex]

On 2/11/2015 at 6:34 AM, Red Iron Crown said:

Paying to unlock dV information is not a good solution to my mind. We already have the information to calculate it manually from day 1, why make us do so? Making it unlockable just puts the players who want that information (which is derived from already available information) back in the situation of calculating manually or using external tools or mods.

This.  Having to unlock the delta-V calculator is a downright stupid game mechanic, especially since you're able to derive the wet and dry masses quite easily.  Delta-V information should be available from the beginning, if it's added.

[HebaruSan]

8 minutes ago, regex said:

This.  Having to unlock the delta-V calculator is a downright stupid game mechanic, especially since you're able to derive the wet and dry masses quite easily.  Delta-V information should be available from the beginning, if it's added.

Inb4 creation of "Reasonable Career Delta V Progression" mod.

Playing devil's advocate, it would fit the paradigm of a space program starting from near-scratch and improving its capabilities over time. Granted, the rocket equation didn't work that way in real history. But if the process of unlocking the calculator actually taught the player about what delta V is, why it matters, and why the calculation works the way it does, in-game, then I could see that being a defensible mechanic.

[regex]

6 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

Inb4 creation of "Reasonable Career Delta V Progression" mod.

It wouldn't be "reasonable".

6 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

Playing devil's advocate, it would fit the paradigm of a space program starting from near-scratch and improving its capabilities over time.

No it wouldn't.

6 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

Granted, the rocket equation didn't work that way in real history.

And this is the reason why.  I can understand unlocking telemetry requiring more/better ground-based tracking and space-borne antennas but unlocking the natural log of your craft's mass ratio makes zero sense.  Humans derived the equation as early as the 1800's, long before actual spaceflight, and I see no reason why Kerbals should be different in that regard considering just how inventive, enthusiastic, and precise they actually are about their spaceflight hardware.

If you want to unlock something, tie it to engine use: "We're not entirely sure what the exhaust velocity of this engine will be in different regimes but it should be about this much.  You'll have to test it so we can refine the results."  Otherwise it's just ridiculous busy-work.

6 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

But if the process of unlocking the calculator actually taught the player about what delta V is, why it matters, and why the calculation works the way it does, in-game, then I could see that being a defensible mechanic.

That sounds like an excellent candidate for a KSPedia page rather than a "progression for progression's sake" sort of mechanic.