Why SQUAD is against procedurally generated solar systems?

[jamqdlaty]

Hi.

Some time ago I read that Squad is against procedurally generated solar systems. Felipe has his own point of view (CLICK for interview), but what about players? Can't it be done the way that would make everyone happy?

So if we were to add procedurally generated planets outside the current solar system, you would end up with places and destinations that don’t exist for anyone else. And then it would fail in terms of you being able to relate to someone else’s experience. You wouldn’t be able to say, “Hey guys, I landed on Duna, this was really cool!†And everyone knows what Duna is and what it stands for. Instead, you’d get, “Hey guys, I found this planet, it looks kinda like this.†And people would be like, “Oh... I’ve got completely different planets on mine.â€Â

Really? How about "So... hi guys... Here's a screenshot - this is me landing on Duna... 104th time. Cause you know, I play it for over a year now..." Why won't they implement world SEED? If you want to use the standard one, use it; if you're bored with landing on same planets over and over - generate random. I BET there would be more discussions then. And sharing world seeds.

The game is still in development and I'm already getting bored. Don't get me wrong - that's still the greatest game I've ever played, but... That's not really a big difference if I land on Duna with some new recently added part. I've already been there. I "conquered" this world. They don't want to implement systems which will give you for example delta-v info, cause they want us to find it ourselves. Well, guess what... I DO know how much trust my ship should have to get to any planet or moon. Everyone can also find that info on the internet. Random planets would make a BIG difference here. They want "trial and error", yet they want us to play in the same Solar system again and again... It seems like they can't make their minds

Maybe I'm not up-to-date, but I can't find more info... What is REALLY the reason?

It feels like Felipe is doing a game for himself.

EDIT: Ok, I guess I need to edit that first post.

1. Procedural / random generated Solar systems doesn't mean that planets would be picked so randomly that they could collide... Come on, I thought KSP players are little smarter... It would be programmed so they wouldn't. It all could be balanced.

2. You could use default kerbol system friendly for new players or generate new one randomly or be entering a SEED. SEED is something that could and WOULD be shared by players on forums. You could still play on seeds that other players play, because the best seeds would be popular!

3. Considering point 1 and 2... Why would it break the community apart? It would be just better. Many people would still play on systems that other people play.

4. I don't mean interstellar traveling. I mean starting in other system. Collecting science and improving your space program in different conditions than always.

5. Seriously, you don't think that someone would do a properly working MOD for generating Solar systems, do you?... If it were in-game, people would share seeds and it would work better (no workarounds), it would be interesting, now there are some poor planets changing mods, I know there are, no reason for pointing it out one more time.

EDIT 2:

Some say that community would break apart because people wouldn't say "I went to Jool!", but "I went to Jool on seed 12345" and other people wouldn't know what Jool on that seed looks like... Is it that important?

- I went to Jool!

- Wow, what an interesting fact, man! I definitely enjoy reading that you've orbited Jool more than exploring new worlds myself in KSP!

You get it?... Who cares that you went to Jool? What's the big deal about "breaking the community" by giving them more possibilities?

There ARE plenty of materials about Kerbol System for new players and there still WILL BE. There WILL BE people saying "I went to Jool", but there also will be people saying 'I went to Jool on seed "blabla", you should check it out'. They will share screenshots and encourage people to do the same thing - sharing worlds and playing on best of these. There would be some hard planets on popular seeds and people would talk about it on forums, they would share their ways to get to planet X in Y system and back.

Even if it made Community little less active (I don't think so), it would be a cost of giving them more possibilities and definitely more fun. It's worth it.

Edited May 13, 2014 by jamqdlaty

[Supernovy]

One idea that has been thrown around a lot is to put randomly generated planets in other solar systems.

This, of course, depends on if and how other systems are implemented.

I'd also hazard a guess that they want to keep the Kerbol system as a Solar system analogue. Possibly also to avoid throwing out the hard work done on the planets themselves by NovaSilisko and others.

[arise257]

The easiest thing to do is implement a choice when you start a new game:

--- Default, Fixed Solar System ---

The "stock" solar system everyone's been playing on.

--- Procedural Solar System ---

Start in the same Kerbin sphere of influence as stock, but with randomly generated planets, moons, and asteroid fields.

Makes everyone happy.

[jamqdlaty]

That's why I think you should be able to choose if you want to use Kerbol system or create a new (random/seed) one (and name it just for fun).

Do you have plans to add more solar systems, or even randomly generated solar systems?

Falange: That’s something we get a lot, and it’s actually something that I’m not very particularly [interested] about implementing. It’s not that can’tâ€â€we could, theoretically. (...)

I think many of KSP players would be happy to play in other Solar System. It would be almost like getting back to first days of playing KSP. New experiences. Something new EVERY TIME you get bored of your current Solar System.

One idea that has been thrown around a lot is to put randomly generated planets in other solar systems.

This, of course, depends on if and how other systems are implemented.

I'm not a fan of many solar systems idea. I hope KSP will stay more about SCIENCE than fiction.

Also - Would I have to get through all Kerbol system again and again every time I start Career mode? It would be really time consuming to unlock WARP engines. What would I unlock with science gathered from other Solar systems? Better WARP engine? I'm not against many solar systems if most players like that idea, I just think we should be able to go through a Career mode in different Solar Systems. Try hard to achieve as much as we can with limited technology.

EDIT:

The easiest thing to do is implement a choice when you start a new game:

--- Default, Fixed Solar System ---

The "stock" solar system everyone's been playing on.

--- Procedural Solar System ---

Start in the same Kerbin sphere of influence as stock, but with randomly generated planets, moons, and asteroid fields.

Makes everyone happy.

That's exactly what I hope to see one day.

[Vanamonde]

What is REALLY the reason?

Why would they give a not-real reason?

[undercoveryankee]

The easiest thing to do is implement a choice when you start a new game:

--- Default, Fixed Solar System ---

The "stock" solar system everyone's been playing on.

--- Procedural Solar System ---

Start in the same Kerbin sphere of influence as stock, but with randomly generated planets, moons, and asteroid fields.

Makes everyone happy.

That's a lot of code for Squad to maintain for only some players to use. Could probably be done as a mod, though.

[jamqdlaty]

That's a lot of code for Squad to maintain for only some players to use. Could probably be done as a mod, though.

They have already generated Mun craters procedurally, just not in-game. It would help to make other planets and moons nicer and less glitchy even in Kerbol System. Do you think only some players would like it? Why? Why would you prefer to land on Duna 100th time instead of getting to other planet. With trial and error. Not knowing details about conditions. Don't you think it takes all the fun to do it on a planet you already know very well?

[comham]

A low res planet is a low res planet, procedural planets wouldn't add much interest without a much revamped and more detailed planetary terrain system.

Plus, everyone using the same planets boosts community, which was important early on in development.

[r4pt0r]

how would they do the fluff science text for a random planet? im glad every system is the same

[jamqdlaty]

Plus, everyone using the same planets boosts community, which was important early on in development.

Probably it was. But what now? Do you think that it would be bad for community and forums to add a choice we're talking about? People who like playing in Kerbol System and talk about it would do it anyway, but many inactive players could become active again. I myself am bored with getting to the same places every time I play. I've got one friend playing KSP and he feels the same.

The problem to notice - inactive players do not usually read forums, so it's not easy to receive a feedback from people who got bored of Kerbol System.

And personal question to all of you - Why wouldn't you like to try to land on a new planet with unknown conditions and examine it instead of landing on the same well known celestial bodies all the time?

Edit:

how would they do the fluff science text for a random planet? im glad every system is the same

Hmm... I'm trying to see the problem, but I just can't see it... That's a really poor reason to keep only 1 default Solar system.

Edited May 8, 2014 by jamqdlaty

[Dodgey]

I guess I'm undecided about this. Though I would prefer Squad to work on features instead of new planets.

[tychochallenge]

That's why I think you should be able to choose if you want to use Kerbol system or create a new (random/seed) one (and name it just for fun).

I think many of KSP players would be happy to play in other Solar System. It would be almost like getting back to first days of playing KSP. New experiences. Something new EVERY TIME you get bored of your current Solar System.

I'm not a fan of many solar systems idea. I hope KSP will stay more about SCIENCE than fiction.

Also - Would I have to get through all Kerbol system again and again every time I start Career mode? It would be really time consuming to unlock WARP engines. What would I unlock with science gathered from other Solar systems? Better WARP engine? I'm not against many solar systems if most players like that idea, I just think we should be able to go through a Career mode in different Solar Systems. Try hard to achieve as much as we can with limited technology.

EDIT:

That's exactly what I hope to see one day.

so are you saying that other solar systems are fictional?, we have already discovered planets orbiting other stars. And keep in mind that the game is still in development and how we see the solar system today will be much different later

[jamqdlaty]

I guess I'm undecided about this. Though I would prefer Squad to work on features instead of new planets.

I'm not saying they should start working on it now. And please notice that it would not be a few new planets. It would be countless possibilities of solar system arrangement, planet sizes and conditions. You would want to go to all planets and moons for example to check if there's an oxygen there. Countless new worlds to explore.

MOJANG could do pretty good terrain generating engine. Squad seems smarter to me! :>

EDIT:

so are you saying that other solar systems are fictional?, we have already discovered planets orbiting other stars. And keep in mind that the game is still in development and how we see the solar system today will be much different later

Oh, so Star Wars is not a sci-fi movie? Damn it!

Other solar systems ARE real. But so far WARP engines are not. They are just like lightsabers.

Edited May 8, 2014 by jamqdlaty

[NFUN]

A system like arise257 suggested is a good idea, but it is probably more of a late-development feature. KSP is still trying to gain fame and the developers need to implement more essential parts of the game first, and this system, as said before, could inhibit a sense of community that new players might desire. A noob excitedly talking about his first Duna landing or Jool encounter boosts his enjoyment of the game and could inspire others to play as well, similar to what Squad stated, and having randomized planets would discourage community or communication. When KSP is more established and less new people are finding it, a procedurally generated stellar system will be able to retain the interest of the players originally attracted to the static Kerbol system. Squad should focus on developing and polishing more important features of the game first, and add this in to the stock when the game is essentially complete. For the players who are getting bored, there are plenty of mods that add planets and new challenges in. Since this system should be optional, a mod might actually be preferable to a stock option, as only those interested would install it. This may require very visible mods for less involved players, so lets see how this CURSE works (disclaimer: I hold no opinions of CURSE, and please don't let this statement threadjack this discussion).

A list of popular seeds, a way to save seeds, and perhaps a seed editor might help community, in that races, challenges, or a sense of private community among friends could be included in such a mod or feature.

Edited May 8, 2014 by NFUN

[undercoveryankee]

They have already generated Mun craters procedurally, just not in-game. It would help to make other planets and moons nicer and less glitchy even in Kerbol System. Do you think only some players would like it? Why? Why would you prefer to land on Duna 100th time instead of getting to other planet. With trial and error. Not knowing details about conditions. Don't you think it takes all the fun to do it on a planet you already know very well?

I'm all for making the planets we have more interesting. Add terrain hazards that you need to map from orbit in-game before you try to land near them. Procedurally generate non-repeating terrain textures. Add objects on the ground that you can interact with while you're landed. Using procedural generation to do all of that is cool.

But if you start procedurally choosing planets' sizes and orbits, then you'll need a set of constraints to make sure you're generating a system that's stable and fun. Make sure one body's SOI never extends into somebody else's atmosphere or surface. Make sure that the amount of science within any given delta-v budget of Kerbin stays about the same so you can use the same tech tree with any solar system you generate.

And even if you could reliably generate a solar system with an interesting distribution of places to go, you lose the benefit of a lot of community knowledge. You can't publish a delta-v map. You can't publish a list of launch windows. You can't publish a transfer calculator that doesn't need access to the save file.

In a solar system with procedurally placed planets, I'd have two choices: Plan missions by trial and error, or learn all of the math that goes into those tools. Neither one strikes me as fun. I would probably experiment, but I would primarily play a solar system that everybody had, where there was published information available.

That's why I think procedurally placed planets will always be too much of a niche option to be an effective use of Squad's resources. But I stand by the other thing I said: Do it in a mod and prove me wrong.

[NoMrBond]

Could always have the other procedural elements (beyond the stock bodies) be dependant on a seed value, even additional bodies of the Kerbol system

That way if you come across something particularly stunning, or want to share, you could pull up and share the seed value/code used for your system (perhaps through the alt+f12 menu), and other users could input that seed into their game which could digest it and let them see the same system/arrangement/bodies on their end.

[Edit] Nevermind I see this already came up before I finished typing up

[jamqdlaty]

A system like arise257 suggested is a good idea, but it is probably more of a late-development feature. KSP is still trying to gain fame and the developers need to implement more essential parts of the game first, and this system, as said before, could inhibit a sense of community that new players might desire. A noob excitedly talking about his first Duna landing or Jool encounter boosts his enjoyment of the game and could inspire others to play as well, similar to what Squad stated, and having randomized planets would discourage community or communication. When KSP is more established and less new people are finding it, a procedurally generated stellar system will be able to retain the interest of the players originally attracted to the static Kerbol system. Squad should focus on developing and polishing more important features of the game first, and add this in to the stock when the game is essentially complete. For the players who are getting bored, there are plenty of mods that add planets and new challenges in. Since this system should be optional, a mod might actually be preferable to a stock option, as only those interested would install it. This may require very visible mods for less involved players, so lets see how this CURSE works (disclaimer: I hold no opinions of CURSE, and please don't let this statement threadjack this discussion).

A list of popular seeds, a way to save seeds, and perhaps a seed editor might help community, in that races, challenges, or a sense of private community among friends could be included in such a mod or feature.

Noone would do mod with randomly generated planets, just one solar system mods. Modders also tend to make things easier, so I'm afraid of Solar Systems balance. Squad has got both money and skills for making proper planets generation system.

I don't know why people are so sure that it would discourage community from communication. Everyone have to learn KSP. The best way would be to play in Kerbol System and read wiki, watch youtube videos. There would still be discussions about Kerbol System. After all videos I've seen, I don't think another video of guy landing on Eve (even with some big ship) would be so interesting to me as video about landing on some cool planet which generated in that guys universe. There would still be many already existing and many new videos, screenshots and discussions about original Kerbol System. I think it would not discourage community at all.

[Woopert]

This is an old argument, though I will say I support procedural solar systems, not random ones unique to each user. Like in Space Engine, they are generated randomly but it's the same on every install. That would be good for KSP, although not until the far-fetched future of KSP.

I'm not even sure if interstellar travel is a good idea for KSP's flavor of gameplay, but that's a whole other argument...

[jamqdlaty]

This is an old argument, though I will say I support procedural solar systems, not random ones unique to each user. Like in Space Engine, they are generated randomly but it's the same on every install. That would be good for KSP, although not until the far-fetched future of KSP.

I'm not even sure if interstellar travel is a good idea for KSP's flavor of gameplay, but that's a whole other argument...

Who's talking about interstellar travel? I don't want interstellar travel, I just want a possibility to make a Career in a random Solar System instead of Kerbol System which I know very well and in which I have played Career mode at least few times already.

[Dunbaratu]

Another in-between idea that contains no random seeds but also isn't fixed would be for SQUAD to open up an API to allow mods to generate a solar system. You'd still have to have manually created and designed planets, but could have more than one of them - a modder could say "I worked for months on my new cool solar system - load it up and have a look".

[Dodgey]

Basically squad wants the community to play in the same universe. That's really it.

[stupid_chris]

It feels like Felipe is doing a game for himself.

That's exactly it. As a modder, I can relate to that. I don't mod to "please the crowd". At the core, I made RealChute because it's something I wanted. If you aren't modding/developping because you enjoy doing so, and that you don't like the project you're working on, you really shouldn't be doing it.

[BudgetHedgehog]

If you aren't modding/developping because you enjoy doing so, and that you don't like the project you're working on, you really shouldn't be doing it.

As someone who makes musical mashups, I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment. I make mashups for me first and if other people like them, hey, that's groovy. But I didn't set out to please them, I made this mashup because I wanted to.

[jamqdlaty]

Well I'm pretty sure Felipe wouldn't be pleased that you confirm he's doing the game for himself.

Guys... Start a company, sell early access game to at least few hundred thousands people and then tell these people that you actually don't care what they want the game to be. It's not only about fun and hobby like your modding and musical mashups. It's also about pretty big amounts of money. Every developer should pay attention to what community wants. I'm not saying that Squad completely ignores us, but they clearly did not think too much about arguments for and against procedurally generated solar systems and they did not check what community thinks about it. They simply reject the idea because Felipe thinks it's not necessary for him.

[Dodgey]

They decided that they want the universe to remain the same for each player to maintain the community aspect. Is that not good enough of a reason?