[1.12.X] Tantares - Stockalike Soyuz and MIR [16.1][28.05.2024][Mars Expedition WIP]

[Beale]

2 hours ago, tjsnh said:

- Lots of things -

Bottom line : Just about everything is working well, except the Crater/Luna probe core. However, the rocket stacks remain significantly overpowered relative to how far they can boost their "intended/default" payloads.
If extra manpower is needed to do performance tweaking on the engines/tanks/weights/etc , consider me volunteered.

Thanks again!
I think the launchers need a special brush of care to work.  

The Luna probe, I think it is unreasonably busted. The part itself has an unorthodox unity setup, which probably is causing it. I cannot even select the part in the VAB...

As ever, the launchers will be overpowered in the end, but not that much!  

 

Gamma-4.

Economy texture mode! I will need only... 1 more space on the texture map (for the underside).

Edited April 3, 2016 by Beale

[Beale]

The nozzle collective.

All cleaned up, fairings and emissive animations.
The appearance of the cylinder 2-nozzle engine could use an edit - as it is quite hard to distinguish from the standard Black Arrow Gamma 2 in the VAB.

 

Edit:

It makes orbit! Maximum payload, something around 150kg? (I'm sure it is a higher than that, some sloppy flying from me).

Great early game rocket. Unfortunately no solar cells, so lost power a second after perigee was raised above 70km

Also worth to notice, the Black Arrow second stage is now separated from it's sister engine by showing it's frame on the icon..

Edited April 3, 2016 by Beale

[legoclone09]

Awesome stuff! Maybe for Misc 0.9375m parts we could get some probe cores? I need inline ones to go with fuel tanks.

[tjsnh]

14 hours ago, Beale said:

As ever, the launchers will be overpowered in the end, but not that much!  

Yeah, boosters in KSP often feel a little overpowered (especially upper stages) , but I thought sending a Soyuz off on escape trajectory from the Sun was a bit much
The local modulemanager patch I run to balance things out (in 1.0.5, havent started for 1.1 yet) mostly just reduces efficiency curves for a few of the engines, tweaks a few weights slightly, and believe it or not, boosts the amount of fuel in the Blok-D tank so it can be used for circummunar soyuz flights with the nerfed/balanced Proton stack.

Edited April 4, 2016 by tjsnh

[Beale]

A little work today...

The final 0.9375m engine, the large one, in-game.
So, the low-power 0.9375m engine? I guess that will be covered by the LK eventually. So, for now, I think this selection is suitable.

Hint, select the images and press right right right baby.

16 hours ago, legoclone09 said:

Awesome stuff! Maybe for Misc 0.9375m parts we could get some probe cores? I need inline ones to go with fuel tanks.

Sure thing!

Edited April 4, 2016 by Beale

[Jeb-head-mug kerman]

What is better?

[tjsnh]

Expanding the 0.9375m collection is a much welcomed addition. It will make crafting things like Atlas/Able possible and provide more options for upper stage payload boosts.

[CobaltWolf]

2 minutes ago, tjsnh said:

Expanding the 0.9375m collection is a much welcomed addition. It will make crafting things like Atlas/Able possible and provide more options for upper stage payload boosts.

B-bu-but Able would be smaller than 0.625m, let alone 0.9375m. 

8 hours ago, Jeb-head-mug kerman said:

What is better?

Yes.

On 4/4/2016 at 1:14 AM, legoclone09 said:

Awesome stuff! Maybe for Misc 0.9375m parts we could get some probe cores? I need inline ones to go with fuel tanks.

Just pointing out cus iirc you use it, but the BDB Agena probe core is 0.9375m and low profile now. I've been using it a lot so I can deorbit my upper stages. @Beale totally needs to make one though. What would he base it on though?

[Beale]

2 hours ago, tjsnh said:

Expanding the 0.9375m collection is a much welcomed addition. It will make crafting things like Atlas/Able possible and provide more options for upper stage payload boosts.

Just needs more greeble!

Edited April 5, 2016 by Beale

[Beale]

NLV Latest Beta.

- New motors.
- Revamp of the Black prince nozzle, for more triangles.

The FX will be missing, sorry about that.

 

Edited April 5, 2016 by Beale

[tjsnh]

1 hour ago, Beale said:

NLV Latest Beta.

- New motors.
- Revamp of the Black prince nozzle, for more triangles.

The FX will be missing, sorry about that.

 

1.1pre testing :
Parts look amazing, mesh/skins seem good. Fairings for the small engines show up as dark grey instead of light grey - not sure if this is intentional or not, but it doesn't look "bad".
Engines smoke near the ground but no flames yet, I suspect this is because its not yet added.
The full black prince stack flies pretty stable in the first stage, second stage has some minor tumbling issues.
Performance wise .. well .. I used a sample payload of a HECS probe core, a couple batteries, and a couple solar panels, to mimic a 'propsero' and this is how far i was able to send it :



Almost escape velocity from the Sun .. I had to take the screenshot at an angle, since zooming out all the way on the default view wasn't far enough to see the aps.
The main culprit is the "druid" engine. Way, way, way, too efficient.
Other than that, the bottom two stages seem pretty well balanced relative to the size/intended-payload.

Edited April 5, 2016 by tjsnh

[Beale]

6 minutes ago, tjsnh said:

Almost escape velocity from the Sun .. I had to take the screenshot at an angle, since zooming out all the way on the default view wasn't far enough to see the aps.
The main culprit is the "druid" engine. Way, way, way, too efficient.
Other than that, the bottom two stages seem pretty well balanced relative to the size/intended-payload.

Wait, is that with the Black Prince? That should be for heavier payloads. 

Thanks for the feedback!  

[tjsnh]

It was the full stack of the NLV parts, let me take a screenshot pick. (which will also show the dark fairings I mentioned)

[Beale]

2 minutes ago, tjsnh said:

It was the full stack of the NLV parts, let me take a screenshot pick. (which will also show the dark fairings I mentioned)

Thanks!

One of the problems is, the Black Arrow, as it is, is quite narrowly balanced. If I nerf the parts for the sake of the other launchers, then it will no longer be a viable rocket.

[tjsnh]

On the left is the full NLV stack that almost got escape velocity.
On the right is the dark grey fairings on the smaller engines I mentioned. It doesn't look bad in my opinion, but I mention it just incase it isn't intentional.

 

[Beale]

33 minutes ago, tjsnh said:

On the left is the full NLV stack that almost got escape velocity.
On the right is the dark grey fairings on the smaller engines I mentioned. It doesn't look bad in my opinion, but I mention it just incase it isn't intentional.

 

I would like many opinions, but I think that's okay? A reasonably large rocket and a very tiny payload (150kg).
The Black Knight stage you have is also elongated, the "correct"  length is just the single long tank (but this is a sandbox game, so eh )
Saying that, I have reduced the ISP of the Black Prince engine, maximum is now 290 (Which will not help a lot, but have a little effect).
I think that is all I can change without killing Black Arrow (And I really do not want to kill Black Arrow, it is possibly my favourite rocket  )

As for the fairings! Very strange, they should not look like that! .
I see from the engine texture maps, that your texture is out of date, try a quick re-install  

This part here is the clue!
Left is current texture detail, right is old - what you are seeing.

 

Edited April 5, 2016 by Beale

[Beale]

So @tjsnh.

On the Soyuz:

Reduced the first stage engines to 200KN.
Core stage alone has 1.12 TWR on launch (Without Verniers only 0.73!), so it is still possible to build Soyuz 2-1-v like rocket.
The whole thing has a TWR of 2.1, which is high, but better.

I think the performance is better. But, the ISP will be reduced by 20 on the second stage engine and by 25 on the first stage engine.

After first stage + boosters burn out.

Final orbit

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2016 by Beale

[VenomousRequiem]

"Can you do ma a favor, and tell Beale he can balance the NLV by giving them crap ISP but really low weight? That makes them reasonably efficient for small craft but they don't scale up well. It's how we balanced our small rockets."

-CobaltWolf, adapted and censored for Forum use by VenomousRequiem.

 

He says his phone doesn't like this thread... I find myself speaking for him a lot when he's away.

[Beale]

19 minutes ago, VenomousRequiem said:

balance the NLV by giving them crap ISP but really low weight? That makes them reasonably efficient for small craft but they don't scale up well. It's how we balanced our small rockets.

I will try it out, but the engines should have quite correct mass already. They are pretty big, bigger than the LV-909 and given a mass to match.

[CobaltWolf]

1 hour ago, Beale said:

I will try it out, but the engines should have quite correct mass already. They are pretty big, bigger than the LV-909 and given a mass to match.

Wat. The Black Arrow? (I'm home now)

Alright, you know how the LV909 wins vs the nuclear engine a lot because the LV909 has so much lower mass? Same thing but a smaller scale. For example. the Able engine in BDB has pretty good performance with the Able stage - because it's a small, light stage, despite the low ISP. The overall stage is so light. But if you attach that engine to a big fuel tank, you'll get better performance by having a higher ISP, rather than keeping the overall weight down.

This can be applied to the Black Arrow - keeping the performance of the Black Arrow itself near abouts the same, but the engines don't scale up pretty well. Low ISP, low weight.

Edited April 6, 2016 by CobaltWolf

[legoclone09]

That's a great idea! It would help with balancing a lot.

[Beale]

9 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

Wat. The Black Arrow? (I'm home now)

Alright, you know how the LV909 wins vs the nuclear engine a lot because the LV909 has so much lower mass? Same thing but a smaller scale. For example. the Able engine in BDB has pretty good performance with the Able stage - because it's a small, light stage, despite the low ISP. The overall stage is so light. But if you attach that engine to a big fuel tank, you'll get better performance by having a higher ISP, rather than keeping the overall weight down.

This can be applied to the Black Arrow - keeping the performance of the Black Arrow itself near abouts the same, but the engines don't scale up pretty well. Low ISP, low weight.

The sizing I think is too close. 
The current engines weigh around ~0.5, close to the LV-909. They are in the same size range too. 
If the weight was reduced to around ~0.3 or ~0.4, it might cross the line to becoming less believable.

[Beale]

15 minute fast parts...

0.9375m and 1.25m probe cores, suggestion of @legoclone09

[legoclone09]

Awesome! They look great!

[woo_reentry_is_cool_dude]

totally cool mod , but buran would ne awesome , and sputnik 1 ? I LOVE THAT LITTLE CUTIE BALL SAT