kopapaka Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 (edited) On 1/26/2020 at 8:37 PM, Beale said: Full KTDU-51 engine. 3 parts vs. the old 1 Monopropelant? Ideal for Soyuz... Edited January 31, 2020 by kopapaka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beale Posted January 26, 2020 Author Share Posted January 26, 2020 (edited) Just now, kopapaka said: Monopropelant? Ideal for Soyuz... Yes, For sure! Nice lander Edited January 26, 2020 by Beale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beale Posted January 26, 2020 Author Share Posted January 26, 2020 (edited) Github https://github.com/Tantares/Tantares New LOK parts. Rebalanced mono tanks and engines for Soyuz. Edited January 26, 2020 by Beale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredde104 Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 (edited) I need some help... no matter what i do, my soyuz always turns around mid-air and is impossible to launch without failure... what am i doing wrong?? it has nothing to do with my other mods, as i have this issue even when only tantares is installed.. i have tried both mechjeb, gravity turn, and doing a manual gravity turn but it still keeps turning around when i reach about 200-300 m/s craft file: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Puq3j6QbhCT6mo6usSz0vI-TMu7HuDB1 Edited January 27, 2020 by Fredde104 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooHungLow Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 2 hours ago, Fredde104 said: I need some help... no matter what i do, my soyuz always turns around mid-air and is impossible to launch without failure... what am i doing wrong?? it has nothing to do with my other mods, as i have this issue even when only tantares is installed.. i have tried both mechjeb, gravity turn, and doing a manual gravity turn but it still keeps turning around when i reach about 200-300 m/s craft file: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Puq3j6QbhCT6mo6usSz0vI-TMu7HuDB1 Do you have the fins attached to the side boosters? Also, I usually attach RCS to the core stage for additional control. It seems like you are having a drag issue at a high center of gravity on the launch vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjsnh Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 (edited) 13 hours ago, Fredde104 said: I need some help... no matter what i do, my soyuz always turns around mid-air and is impossible to launch without failure... what am i doing wrong?? it has nothing to do with my other mods, as i have this issue even when only tantares is installed.. i have tried both mechjeb, gravity turn, and doing a manual gravity turn but it still keeps turning around when i reach about 200-300 m/s craft file: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Puq3j6QbhCT6mo6usSz0vI-TMu7HuDB1 I had/have the same problem for .. a long time. I've only been able to reliably solve the issue by editing the parts config files and dramatically increasing the weight of the upper "bulge" tanks to shift the center of gravity way up. Edited January 27, 2020 by tjsnh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pkmniako Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 Tried launching Beale's Soyuz and had no flips. Would have tried with your craft @Fredde104, but there are parts I don't know from which mods they are from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bokrif Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 On 1/26/2020 at 3:41 PM, Beale said: Old -> New The new one also looks good, but I like the old one as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Random Annoying Guy Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 19 minutes ago, bokrif said: The new one also looks good, but I like the old one as well. ??? they are the same except the top part Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krakatoa Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 23 minutes ago, Random Annoying Guy said: ??? they are the same except the top part No they aren't. Attention to detail, my lad. Check the panel lines on the bottom. Color is slightly different, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beale Posted January 27, 2020 Author Share Posted January 27, 2020 (edited) 17 hours ago, Fredde104 said: I need some help... no matter what i do, my soyuz always turns around mid-air and is impossible to launch without failure... what am i doing wrong?? it has nothing to do with my other mods, as i have this issue even when only tantares is installed.. i have tried both mechjeb, gravity turn, and doing a manual gravity turn but it still keeps turning around when i reach about 200-300 m/s craft file: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Puq3j6QbhCT6mo6usSz0vI-TMu7HuDB1 3 hours ago, tjsnh said: I had/have the same problem for .. a long time. I've only been able to reliably solve the issue by editing the parts config files and dramatically increasing the weight of the upper "bulge" tanks to shift the center of gravity way up. Unfortunately I can't test the craft as it has parts from a bunch of other mods I don't have. I think as @Pkmniako shows though, the Soyuz as it is should fly pretty flawlessly to orbit, honestly it's a real mule and I have used and abused it to space and back, flying not so carefully with the throttle maxed all the way. I really need to know what you guys are doing on launch, could you take a video? Flying straight up and doing a sharper 45 turn at 10km up? a.k.a. KSPs old aerodynamic system. Not to be grumpy, but this problem always goes quiet when I start digging into how people are flying, vs. what they are flying With any realistically proportion rocket in KSP you do have to fly along the prograde and gradually lean over. Edited January 27, 2020 by Beale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredde104 Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 As far as i know, i have only used parts from this... but i might be wrong, its been years since i made the file, then its just the payload that has been "upgraded". However i will try to increase the mass of the upper tank to get the CoM higher and try again. If that wont help, maybe the new parts work better? Im still using the "old" rocket parts with the new spacecraft parts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjsnh Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) 20 hours ago, Beale said: I really need to know what you guys are doing on launch, could you take a video? Flying straight up and doing a sharper 45 turn at 10km up? a.k.a. KSPs old aerodynamic system. Not to be grumpy, but this problem always goes quiet when I start digging into how people are flying, vs. what they are flying I generally ascend vertically until reaching 300m/s (roughly, sometimes a little more or less) then start to slowly bank over to a 45degree inclined climb. Usually about 20 degrees into the bank, I get a "flip" where the R-7 stack does a somersault. After it does its flip, its usually recoverable, but without my weight fixes (or a seriously over-heavy payload) its unavoidable for me. I've tried with fins, without fins, different types of fairings, no fairing, banking slowly, banking quickly, etc etc. The CG ends up being just too low. The only fixes I've found are to reduce the weight of the strap-on boosters down to almost nothing (which makes the rocket even more OP with stock physics/planet) or to make the bulge tanks heavier (which has the added benefit of a mild nerf to the booster) - both of which shift the CG up a bit. Important note - when the flip happens, it doesn't tumble out of control ... it usually just does ONE uncontrollable flip , then reorients itself with some mild WASD inputs. This is before side-booster separation. My guess is that its due to the CG shifting relative to the length of the rocket as stage 1 burns fuel and that KSP's physics and/or aerodynamic model just handles that transition oddly for these parts. Edited January 28, 2020 by tjsnh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Angry Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) I'm thinking the 200-300m/s might be the issue here, pitching over at higher speeds might be catching a lot of air and flipping things over. I usually start a turn around 100m/s and try to keep acceleration down with either plenty of throttle control or lowering the first stage thrust to a lower TWR. Edit: Just tried out starting turn at 300m/s. With fins on, I can barely get the rocket to turn, let alone flip. Without fins, I did have a flip at around 550m/s and around 30° into the turn. Edited January 28, 2020 by Fly Angry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beale Posted January 28, 2020 Author Share Posted January 28, 2020 5 hours ago, Fredde104 said: As far as i know, i have only used parts from this... but i might be wrong, its been years since i made the file, then its just the payload that has been "upgraded". However i will try to increase the mass of the upper tank to get the CoM higher and try again. If that wont help, maybe the new parts work better? Im still using the "old" rocket parts with the new spacecraft parts Definitely use the most latest version, I am not sure how the aero is working on the older model 4 hours ago, tjsnh said: I generally ascend vertically until reaching 300m/s (roughly, sometimes a little more or less) then start to slowly bank over to a 45degree inclined climb. Usually about 20 degrees into the bank, I get a "flip" where the R-7 stack does a somersault. After it does its flip, its usually recoverable, but without my weight fixes (or a seriously over-heavy payload) its unavoidable for me. I've tried with fins, without fins, different types of fairings, no fairing, banking slowly, banking quickly, etc etc. The CG ends up being just too low. The only fixes I've found are to reduce the weight of the strap-on boosters down to almost nothing (which makes the rocket even more OP with stock physics/planet) or to make the bulge tanks heavier (which has the added benefit of a mild nerf to the booster) - both of which shift the CG up a bit. Important note - when the flip happens, it doesn't tumble out of control ... it usually just does ONE uncontrollable flip , then reorients itself with some mild WASD inputs. This is before side-booster separation. My guess is that its due to the CG shifting relative to the length of the rocket as stage 1 burns fuel and that KSP's physics and/or aerodynamic model just handles that transition oddly for these parts. Thanks for the detailed observations, but I cannot reproduce at all Craft file using only Tantares parts (Last full release) If this doesn't work for you, I can only think: Using any mods that might affect aero or overall balance? (I would be very grumpy if you were using FAR and completely neglected to mention that ) Your physics settings maybe? Install issue? Tried deleting partdatabase.cfg? If you could: Take a video (I know this might not be easy / possible, you can use OBS to record https://obsproject.com/ ) Screenshot GameData folder I flew to orbit, full throttle and with timewarp very sloppily, no issues: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrd.Helmet Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, tjsnh said: I generally ascend vertically until reaching 300m/s (roughly, sometimes a little more or less) then start to slowly bank over to a 45degree inclined climb. Usually about 20 degrees into the bank, I get a "flip" where the R-7 stack does a somersault. After it does its flip, its usually recoverable, but without my weight fixes (or a seriously over-heavy payload) its unavoidable for me. I've tried with fins, without fins, different types of fairings, no fairing, banking slowly, banking quickly, etc etc. The CG ends up being just too low. The only fixes I've found are to reduce the weight of the strap-on boosters down to almost nothing (which makes the rocket even more OP with stock physics/planet) or to make the bulge tanks heavier (which has the added benefit of a mild nerf to the booster) - both of which shift the CG up a bit. Important note - when the flip happens, it doesn't tumble out of control ... it usually just does ONE uncontrollable flip , then reorients itself with some mild WASD inputs. This is before side-booster separation. My guess is that its due to the CG shifting relative to the length of the rocket as stage 1 burns fuel and that KSP's physics and/or aerodynamic model just handles that transition oddly for these parts. it's the first vertical ascend that's doing it. Try going vertical for 100m/s and then bank 5 degrees. And then just let it follow prograde. should be 45 degrees around 10km in altitude. If that gives you a too steep of a trajectory try starting your turn earlier (somewhere between 50m/s and 100m/s). And then just finetune it in the following launches. Back of the throttle if you are not at 45 degrees at 10km. This is the same for you: @Fredde104 3 hours ago, Beale said: Thanks for the detailed observations, but I cannot reproduce at all Craft file using only Tantares parts (Last full release) <snip> It is NOT an issue with your mod. I have used it since forever and never had any problems. The first time the issue has popped up on this thread (long time ago) it always was somebody flying it like they used to in the souposphere. Edited January 28, 2020 by lrd.Helmet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beale Posted January 28, 2020 Author Share Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) Edited January 28, 2020 by Beale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
golkaidakhaana Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 Oh wow, this update is going to be amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beale Posted January 29, 2020 Author Share Posted January 29, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredde104 Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 i seem to have find the issue by accident.. im using a scaled down rss and did the atmosphere to the wrong scale. i changed it from .7 to .55 and now the ascent goes perfect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beale Posted January 30, 2020 Author Share Posted January 30, 2020 Github https://github.com/Tantares/Tantares Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiscoSlelge Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Beale said: Github https://github.com/Tantares/Tantares In Täntaresss ruçia , we länd söjuss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Random Annoying Guy Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 I think lfo craft are more versatile and efficient (canon rcs isp is 240 while terrier has 350) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Prates Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) On 1/26/2020 at 9:07 PM, Fredde104 said: I need some help... no matter what i do, my soyuz always turns around mid-air and is impossible to launch without failure... what am i doing wrong?? it has nothing to do with my other mods, as i have this issue even when only tantares is installed.. i have tried both mechjeb, gravity turn, and doing a manual gravity turn but it still keeps turning around when i reach about 200-300 m/s craft file: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Puq3j6QbhCT6mo6usSz0vI-TMu7HuDB1 As with every rocket, you should fly straight for the first kilometers, to clear the lower, denser air. I never start turning below 10k. Doing intense maneuvering in denser air is a sure recepy for this kind of control loss. I mean, some particularly well-designed rockets are more stable and you can do anything with them, but that is not "by the book". Try not changing anything, except flying fully straight until you pass the 10k threshold - and even so, do only incremental attitude adjustments. Then report back here and let's see if the problem persists. Edited January 31, 2020 by Daniel Prates Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorg Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Daniel Prates said: As with every rocket, you should fly straight for the first kilometers, to clear the lower, denser air. I never start turning below 10k. Doing intense maneuvering in denser air is a sure recepy for this kind of control loss. I mean, some particularly well-designed rockets are more stable and you can do anything with them, but that is not "by the book". Try not changing anything, except flying fully straight until you pass the 10k threshold - and even so, do only incremental attitude adjustments. Then report back here and let's see if the problem persists. This turning above 10km idea is from the old KSP aero model. This is NOT optimal anymore. For the vast majority of reasonably designed rockets, you 1) start a gravity turn by nudging 10 degrees in the direction you are launching it at 100-150m/s then holding prograde. (you can also start gentler earlier but this is pretty safe) 2) disable prograde hold at 45 degrees if you find yourself at 45 degrees before reaching 20-25km. 3) Then go as horizontal as possible from there keeping Ap at least 30s away (at stock scale, in 2.5x you prob want to keep it 60-90s away) 4) establish Ap and then circularise at Ap (or learn to do a single burn to orbit,) See the gif pkmniako posted which illustrates a proper gravity turn. That 10km thing these days would only be necessary for something with horrible aero like trying to launch an unshielded space station or something. Edited January 31, 2020 by Zorg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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