A statement on part clipping

[Darthzeus]

So essentially clear through my KSP career I have been one to get frustrated at attachments not working. Namely, the infamous SPH one where one side says it'll place and the other won't so symmetry breaks. Also, there's lots of times where it's just needed to put a part where it belongs. I don't understand this anti-debug mentality. Yes, the debug menu is technically cheating, but if you think about it, in actual construction there's a certain amount of cutting and welding that occurs. So no, I don't view it as cheating. What I view as cheating part hacking. Using the debug menu to put 30 fuel tanks in the space of one IS cheating. Not crossing a pair of fuel tanks in a radial attachment, or sinking a light into the surface of a vessel to make it appear flesh with the surface. I have had people literally point at my designs and yell "PART CLIPPING", then look at me in a disgusted manner. Honestly, I think we all do it to an extent. Everyone will deny it. But we all have those bits of "Non-debug part clipping!" Where things that can't be replicated appear mysteriously on your craft:huh:. So, I would request that everyone stop and think. Honestly, honestly how often do you reach for part clipping as a fall back for that one thing that just won't fit.How many people out there actual deal with the default editor collision boxes, that are more restrictive than they really ought to be? So please, people, have some respect and judge one by there talent at the design, not by if they hit alt+f12 to get that cuboidal strut there or not.

[zekes]

just be careful and know that docking ports dont like symmetrical attachments, especially if they are in subassemblies. I love part clipping.

[Red Iron Crown]

I think you should stop worrying about what others say about how you build your stuff.

Even without using the debug menu it is possible to do some absurd amounts of clipping with certain parts. It's a bit of a sliding scale, and the amount of clipping that is tolerable and "not cheating" is different for everyone. For me, clipping one tank inside another feels cheaty, clipping the edges of engine bases when clustering them does not. Others might clip tanks and feel fine, others might not consider clipping those engine bases acceptable. I don't really care, I play the game for fun by my rules.

So make your ships the way you like. Have fun doing it. Listen to the people who appreciate them, ignore those that call them cheaty or worse. The only definition of cheating that matters is yours.

[Sky_walker]

Complaining about complains, huh?

If some part in the game doesn't allow you to do what you imagined - work around it instead of jumping into console. It's rather widely accepted that anything you create in the games using console (be it in KSP or anything else) is considered "cheating" so I have no idea why you are surprised to see people point it out.

Should you care?

I don't think so. If you find it fun and enjoyable to build your ships with a help of console commands - by all means: do it. As RIC pointed out - you should stop worrying about what others say.

[RoboRay]

I may have designed a ship or two somewhere along the way that didn't involve part clipping, but that's all it was... one or two. Real-world aircraft and spacecraft are not snapped together out of lego parts... they're blended together smoothly. Some part clipping (through the debug menu or not) is pretty much required if you want a realistic-looking design.

I don't clip things where they couldn't possibly actually fit, though... no fuel tanks inside fuel tanks, intakes inside other intakes, or engines hidden inside command pods.

Honestly though, even if you do stuff functional parts inside other functional parts in an unrealistic fashion, some of the crazy-overpowered mod parts out there dramatically dwarf the "cheatiness" of part clipping.

[Felsmak]

I did part clipping before I even knew how to open the debug menu. I'm not quite sure how.

[The Jedi Master]

I don't do part clipping, but not because I think it's cheating. Part clipping leads to explosions. Speaking from experience.

[katateochi]

yeah what Red Iron Crown said, build it your way and in most cases you can surprise the editor into allowing a part clip without the menu. I use part clipping if I can do it without the debug menu, but I will use the debug menu to deal with parts that really should place (like the SPH issues).

It's mostly all about aesthetics anyway. If you clip tanks together you save space, but you still have the same weight to contend with and you have a higher chance of exploding. Hey, its a pressurised tank!

The only part clipping I can think of that makes your craft perform better (and this is questionable anyway) is clipping air intakes.

In the past I've taken a hacksaw to lego, so don't try and tell me not to clip parts!

[TimePeriod]

I use part clipping when building very compact SSTO's, complex rockets with multiple payloads on different orbits, on stations and when I have to land somewhere...

Ugh I use it everywhere

[sal_vager]

Part clipping is fine, and it's great for Apollo style LEM's, fancy SSTO spaceplanes and similar, the only real issue I find is the phantom torque that can occur with part-clipped craft.

All the mass is still there, it's just compressed into a smaller space so there's no real gameplay advantage from part clipping

[zekes]

here is my favorite reason to clip - asthetics. My super heavy Cira IV wouldn't be able to get 170 tonnes to orbit without a huge 2nd stage, and that would require 4 huge tanks and engines. But by part clipping they look compact and small, and the clipping is hardly noticable.

You can see the clipping at the back there- its one engine and tank, with three more radially clipped to it.

[Red Iron Crown]

There's some advantage to be had even though the mass remains. Clip all your stuff together on a lander and your CoM gets lower, so it's easier to stick a landing without toplling; the polar moment of inertia is reduced, so it's easier to turn the ship.

Still not something you should care about if it doesn't feel cheaty to you.

[Superfluous J]

The debug menu is so easy to open because this game is in alpha and it helps you fix some of the bugs.

Unsymmetrical symmetry is a bug. Use part clipping to get around that bug.

(Though I never bother. I just attach the part without symmetry, then take off the whole assemblage and put it back on the rocket with symmetry back on. Unless I've done unsymmetrical things to it which is pretty rare as this is usually a problem with boosters that aren't even going to get to orbit)

Edited July 8, 2014 by 5thHorseman
Oops. I mistakenly called it "in beta" instead of mistakenly calling it "in alpha"

[John FX]

Build beautiful craft. Use all the tools you have.

Don`t listen to the crowd that wants to make you feel bad for making beautiful things.

Build for yourself, then you say what is right and what is wrong.

View the craft of others with kindness and give praise where it is due

Remember, we all fly our own orbit. The orbits of others will not change your vector.

All who pass you by will be on a higher or lower orbit. You will never catch those on the same orbit as yourself.

No orbit is better than another unless one is decaying.

Gravity sucks.

[Dkmdlb]

Yes, the debug menu is technically cheating

Citation needed. Also, I've not heard anybody recently speaking ill of the use of the debug menu, so I'm not really sure who the OP is directed toward.

[CalculusWarrior]

Build beautiful craft. Use all the tools you have.

Don`t listen to the crowd that wants to make you feel bad for making beautiful things.

Build for yourself, then you say what is right and what is wrong.

I agree completely with this, build whatever you like, however you want.

Personally, I love part clipping, it makes ships look so much nicer, and I like to think of it as the kerbals taking handsaws to the parts, which does seem like a thing my space program would do

[Brofessional]

Using the debug menu to clip I consider cheating, any amount of clipping you can do without it though is fair game.

[cantab]

IMHO the editor is so full of oddities and bugs that there's no meaningful difference between clipping with and without the debug option. Personally I'm not opposed to clipping generally, though it feels iffy if parts are completely hidden or/and the clipping makes the ship perform like it looks it shouldn't.

[sal_vager]

You only cheat yourself, so others can use part clipping and not feel bad about it, like me

[AlamoVampire]

I don't use part clipping very often myself. I've nothing against it, it's just my builds seldom need me to clip lol. I do see genuine value to it as it can make for prettier lines and more realistic ones too! Do what is fun for you!

[Hattivat]

Honestly though, even if you do stuff functional parts inside other functional parts in an unrealistic fashion, some of the crazy-overpowered stock parts out there make complaints about mods seem ridiculous.

Here, fixed it for ya. Examples of what I mean:

1. Pretty much everything in the ARM update (seriously, I have never seen any conventional rocket engine in any mod that was less balanced than what 0.23.5 brought us)

2. Turbocharged ion and jet engines

3. Magic reaction wheels that make momentum disappear

As for the part-clipping question, OP, do whatever floats your boat and disregard people who want to push you into following made-up rules on what is allowed. Just don't act like your debug-console stock designs were somehow superior to modded ones; it's funny when people act like that.

[RoboRay]

No, that really doesn't "fix" it, just adds to it. If you think the SLS parts are imbalanced (and I agree that they are), you haven't seen some of the mods I've seen.

Stock ion and jet engines are simply insanely OP... and yet people make mod ions and jets that are even more powerful. But making something like this or this is "cheating" because a few of the parts are clipped together...

Edited July 8, 2014 by RoboRay

[Jouni]

For me, part clipping is all about trading aesthetics for performance. You get to build what you want, and it performs better, because all that mass is in a tight package, but the downside is that it looks ugly. The moment I notice visible part clipping, I get the feeling that something isn't right, and the entire ship starts looking bad.

[Frank_G]

I say one can use part clipping in a very realistic non "offending" way... i posted this a while ago here and i think it is totally ok...

Actually it gives you the opportunity to create compact craft and also make them look much cooler, even without sticking stuff together in an unrealistic way.

[Felsmak]

For me, part clipping is all about trading aesthetics for performance. You get to build what you want, and it performs better, because all that mass is in a tight package, but the downside is that it looks ugly. The moment I notice visible part clipping, I get the feeling that something isn't right, and the entire ship starts looking bad.

But isn't the purpose of part clipping usually to make things look better? Like, instead of having a lot of protruding parts, or just a generally unattractive craft, you simply squash everything together and pretend it's sophisticated engineering.