A Modding Community Divided.

[TheAlmightyOS]

As you can see by my original post below, I was very frustrated at the state of affairs in this modding community and what seemed like the mod authors complete lack of concern. But, being who and what I am, I did not communicate it in a very constructive way. Thus, I am rewriting this first post to more accurately describe what I am attempting to get out of this thread and in a (hopefully) much more agreeable manner.

Everyone +dog comes in here and says what everyone already knows: The modding community has many shortcomings. However when they pitch their idea of a solution it is almost always "get the modder to do X". This is not my goal

I want to start a dialog with the active mod Authors in the community. I want to know their processes. I want to know anything that could make their side of the coin smoother. And then, with that information, I want to find a solution that does not change what the mod Authors do at all, but how the community interacts with the finished product (mod)

Lets talk

I am keeping my original post for context of the posts that followed

As you can see on the post count I am sort of new here. I saw the SpacePort all but twice. Did not own the game back then, just looking and wishing and dreaming.

But then I did finally get KSP and immediately started looking for mods so I could build the spaceplane I had in my head. What I found was utter chaos. Squad had changed their modding site to Curse, mod authors resisted this change even going as far as creating their own hosting site, Kerbal Stuff. But for most, the KSP Forum was their showcase and the cloud was their host. No easy way to browse, search or even check for updates. Not being new to this sort of thing (I work with developers, after all) I decided I wanted to help. I found many that thought like I did, trying to make tools and meta-repositories that could bring order to chaos. But there are so many, which was the problem in the first place. Too many options. I had my own idea, a dev tool for modders that would package their mod in a standardized way and send it to all current hosting locations. That went over so well that no one posted to that thread. So did my idea of picking a single host point. The mod authors complained so badly for a "don't care" option that one of the Moderators had to add it to the poll.

I have been over this so many times in my head, thinking of a standardized way to get mod from author to user without trying to force the authors to do anything out of their normal process. And then I think back to the "I don't care" attitude and get just a tad pissed

All of the Mod Authors here. You. I am angry at you. YOU ARE GEN 1. You are the masters. You are the originals that all KSP modders will emulate years from now. Your actions now will have a drastic impact on the KSP mod community of the future! And right now you are doing NOTHING* to put this community together. Everyone has got their own way of doing things and they don't care about what others do. BUT YOU SHOULD CARE! When KSP goes 1.00.0 is THIS how you want YOUR modding community to work?! Just a bunch of announcements on a forum pointing to github or dropbox or mediafire or [putyourhosthere]? Right now the Add-on Releases and Projects Showcase has 1100+ threads. Do you think the forum could handle 2000 more and still be the slightest bit useful? How would someone find your mod? How would someone even browse though all that if they are just looking at what you guys have to offer? Especially those of you that do not update often cause there is no need to. Your mod would be all the way back on page 40-something. Is this what you want? No? THEN TALK ABOUT IT!

No one wants to tell you guys what to do. You guys do an awesome job making mods. But you all need to come together as the leaders of this community and have a nice long chat about the direction you all want to take moving into the future. You don't have to pick a single hosting site or even package your mods a specific way. Just start a dialog!

Now if you excuse me, I need to don my flame retardant suit before the flameware starts.

*there are a few exceptions. You know who you are. Thank you

Edited August 5, 2014 by TheAlmightyOS
Edited to be more in line with what the thread is about

[regex]

I actually like the forum distribution with random download links and the packaging barrier to install; forces users to be smarter and more aware of what they're doing. I'm not really actively modding anymore but as a mod user I'm perfectly happy with this scheme, it fits the individual modder's preferences better.

Anyway, what's your solution?

[Alshain]

When has the entirety of any group of people ever had the exact same opinion? I'd wager, never.

You want world peace? But that would bankrupt the weapons industry!

[Vendan]

Also, try to make sure your solution is XKCD 927-proof

[TheAlmightyOS]

You guys have already shot down my solutions. So you could say My solution is this thread. Communication.

[Alshain]

You guys have already shot down my solutions. So you could say My solution is this thread. Communication.

If your intent was to communicate you probably shouldn't have prefaced it with "[RANT]" because that is a big turn off.

[ferram4]

I'm perfectly happy with the way things are right now. Lots of choices for mod repositories and mirrors. Lots of choices and options for directories that mods can be organized into. Lots of options in terms of licensing. I like options; why should we get rid of them, as you seem to be suggesting? What benefits are there to any of this? Why should any of us care to start going around policing what other modders choose for their mirrors or for their directory structures? Why is it my problem?

[Mr Shifty]

I understand your frustration a bit. I've been here for about 15 months; the KSP Space Port (mod repository) was actually fairly universally used when I started playing, but was starting to crack at the seams. It wouldn't process updates; it would create duplicate entries; it often failed to track downloads, and it was difficult to include or update the extra information (installation, usage, FAQs, etc.) For many months, Squad was promising upgrades to the Space Port; there'd be an announcement that Space Port 2 was 'almost finished', but it could never quite get up to snuff. Curse was the eventual fall-back when Squad couldn't get a first party site working. Consider a few things:

1) Curse is a relatively recent change, so we're still in transition. My hunch is that Curse is going to eventually be abandoned by modders and KerbalStuff will be the platform of choice because it's open source, easy to use, and attractive, but all that is quite new and things are still shaking out, so have patience.

2) The mods that were all the rage when I started playing in May of last year are almost all totally defunct now. (Exceptions: MechJeb, Kethane, FAR, KAS and maybe a couple others.) And 6 months before that was another crop of mods that have long since faded into the dustbin of kerbal history. That is, the current 'generation' of mod authors is not generation 1 here. Mods are going through cycles that last about 6 months. KSP still changes quite a bit with every update; most mods break; and very few mod authors can sustain maintenance through a couple years of that.

3) Minecraft seems to function pretty well mostly handling mod announcements and updates through its forums. There are 3rd party sites that provide mod lists, but nothing official, and hosting is as ad-hoc over there as it is here. It seems to work OK.

4) There is a well-maintained [thread=55401]community list of mods[/thread] that is what any new player should be looking at. It is stickied in the add-on forum.

5) Yes, versioning has always been and continues to be an issue. And there are in-progress [thread=79745]community driven efforts[/thread] to fix that. But I suspect this won't really settle down until KSP 1.0 is released. The modding scene here is just too volatile.

In other words, we're in transition, but this community has existed for a couple years now in strength and is fairly comfortable with how it's working. You want some old cadre of modders to hash things out, but if you read through modding forums, you can find it actually does get lots of discussion, and there's no real modding leadership; it's too diverse a community for that. If you want to play KSP mods (and you should; they're excellent), you have to have some chill for the ebb and flow of the scene.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Mr Shifty

[TheAlmightyOS]

When has the entirety of any group of people ever had the exact same opinion? I'd wager, never.

You want world peace? But that would bankrupt the weapons industry!

I do not expect 100% agreement, just a general "ok, that is a good idea, let's aim for that"

People disagree all the time, but all cars have glove compartments and radios, and cig lighters/power adapters, right? No government forces car makers to have them but they all think it is a good idea

I understand your frustration a bit. I've been here for about 15 months; the KSP Space Port (mod repository) was actually fairly universally used when I started playing, but was starting to crack at the seams. It wouldn't process updates; it would create duplicate entries; it often failed to track downloads, and it was difficult to include or update the extra information (installation, usage, FAQs, etc.) For many months, Squad was promising upgrades to the Space Port; there'd be an announcement that Space Port 2 was 'almost finished', but it could never quite get up to snuff. Curse was the eventual fall-back when Squad couldn't get a first party site working. Consider a few things:

1) Curse is a relatively recent change, so we're still in transition. My hunch is that Curse is going to eventually be abandoned by modders and KerbalStuff will be the platform of choice because it's open source, easy to use, and attractive, but all that is quite new and things are still shaking out, so have patience.

2) The mods that were all the rage when I started playing in May of last year are almost all totally defunct now. (Exceptions: MechJeb, Kethane, FAR, KAS and maybe a couple others.) And 6 months before that was another crop of mods that have long since faded into the dustbin of kerbal history. That is, the current 'generation' of mod authors is not generation 1 here. Mods are going through cycles that last about 6 months. KSP still changes quite a bit with every update; most mods break; and very few mod authors can sustain maintenance through a couple years of that.

3) Minecraft seems to function pretty well mostly handling mod announcements and updates through its forums. There are 3rd party sites that provide mod lists, but nothing official, and hosting is as ad-hoc over there as it is here. It seems to work OK.

4) There is a well-maintained [thread=55401]community list of mods[/thread] that is what any new player should be looking at. It is stickied in the add-on forum.

5) Yes, versioning has always been and continues to be an issue. And there are in-progress [thread=79745]community driven efforts[/thread] to fix that. But I suspect this won't really settle down until KSP 1.0 is released. The modding scene here is just too volatile.

In other words, we're in transition, but this community has existed for a couple years now in strength and is fairly comfortable with how it's working. You want some old cadre of modders to hash things out, but if you read through modding forums, you can find it actually does get lots of discussion, and there's no real modding leadership; it's too diverse a community for that. If you want to play KSP mods (and you should; they're excellent), you have to have some chill for the ebb and flow of the scene.

First, thank you for your well thought out response

1) I suspect you are right. However, my fear is that, even with KS finished, the forum will be THE showcase and forum software, specifically vBulletin, is simply not designed for such a task. I believe if we do not start talking about these things now then when the time comes it will be too late.

2) Ah. I see. Makes sense with KSP being a pre-launch title. Still, we need to set a precedent for those that come next (month)

3) Hate to break it to you, but Minecraft Forums are hosted on Curseforge: http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums. That might be why it works like it does

4) I keep the community list of mods, maintained by nismobg, in my sig as a link. He does a great service. Me and a few others offered to help with his efforts but only he can edit the post. Thought about using an open document but doubted the users here would use it.

5) I have been an active participant in the community efforts. Not the one you posted but this one. The problem with this and others is scale-ability. KSP is a VERY modifiable game. When 1.0 hits I foresee a flood of mods and if we are not already using some form of standards it is going to be hell for the user.

I'm perfectly happy with the way things are right now. Lots of choices for mod repositories and mirrors. Lots of choices and options for directories that mods can be organized into. Lots of options in terms of licensing. I like options; why should we get rid of them, as you seem to be suggesting? What benefits are there to any of this? Why should any of us care to start going around policing what other modders choose for their mirrors or for their directory structures? Why is it my problem?

Ah, seems there is a bit of miss-communication here.

I like options too. I don't want to tell you where to upload your mod. I don't want to tell you how to organize the directory structure. I do not care about the licensing you choose. I like the fact that you have options. I WANT YOU TO HAVE OPTIONS! But I also want to FIND YOUR MOD!!

I am calling to attention the fact that Mods are hosted (Read: Displayed) everywhere. Mostly on a forum not suited for such a thing. Not telling you where to post your mod. But I would at least like to start a dialog about possible benefits for mod authors and mod users alike! Did you know a single file added to your mod could let everyone know when you update it? OF COURSE YOU DO! You already put a ".version" file in your mods that allows KSP-AVC to check for updates! But what if that ".version" file could do more? These are the things that should be talked about

Edited August 4, 2014 by sumghai
Consolidated consecutive replies by the same poster

[Demon_82]

I never went to th SpacePort or anywhere else tan this forum to search for mods, I really can't remember where I've downloaded most of them other than following a link from here.

[gurgle528]

1) Curse is a relatively recent change, so we're still in transition. My hunch is that Curse is going to eventually be abandoned by modders and KerbalStuff will be the platform of choice because it's open source, easy to use, and attractive, but all that is quite new and things are still shaking out, so have patience.

Yes, I agree with this. Curse is a bad main platform. Their Curse Client is a terribly coded .NET program that doesn't even uninstall correctly (it leaves a .NET updater that automatically starts with Windows and does not show in the startup and thus is hard/impossible to disable, however this isn't currently relevant as KSP isn't supported by the client).

[Mr Shifty]

KSP is a VERY modifiable game.

Just a quick point here. This is not actually very true. KSP is reluctantly and capriciously moddable. It wasn't originally conceived with mods in mind and the mod support that's been added has been somewhat tacked-on. There's very little API documentation, and what there is is spread out all over the place. Devs, for instance, spent some time adding hooks for the new contract features, but [thread=86588]it's only been documented[/thread] by a modder, who had to do a bunch of trial and error testing to figure out how to use them. Part of this is because KSP is a work in progress and devs are focused on adding new features, rightly noting that the modding community seems to be able to help itself. KSP's license prohibits decompilation so debugging and code tracing are tedious and difficult and frustrating. (Compare to Minecraft, where its permissive license has fomented the creation of the MCP and other standardized mod development packages.) I think many modders (and players) would be more than happy for Squad to take a dev-cycle to clean up, expand, standardize and document the mod API. It's probably the case that the ad-hoc nature of the interface is somewhat responsible for the ad-hoc nature of the modding scene.

Your points are well taken though. I think the only short-term solution is to have someone volunteer to be a maintainer. They'd have to create some sort of mark-up file library that could be used by a tool to do version checks and downloads and installations and updates.

[Alshain]

-snip-

1. I disagree, I think Curse will be improved upon and it will become the go to source. For one thing, despite Majiir's best intentions, he's not affiliated with Squad and he could lose interest tomorrow and shut it all down (not saying he will, but that possibility remains).

2. Agree with that and it's true of any modding environment for games.

3. The biggest repositories of Minecraft additions are server side plugins because that's easier to maintain since the Bukkit provides a reliable API that breaks things infrequently. Minecraft mods on the other hand break with every release. While client side mods do exist they are not as heavily used as the server side plugins. Bukkit is on Curse.

4. True, and that works, for now. But assuming that the game only gains in popularity, it won't for long.

5. It won't ever settle down as long as KSP is still in development. It never has for any other game (including Minecraft).

[micha]

From a new players' (0.23.5 onwards) perspective, the current mod distribution is a bit of a shambles. Finding and keeping mods up to date is a job and a half. Which is a pity, because I'm sure I'm missing out on plenty of great mods simply because they never made it to the top of the new posts list and weren't otherwise mentioned/advertised to catch my eye. It would be awesome if we could build some sort of app store / repository for mods. Obviously "store" not meant as a monetized affair, but you get the idea.

Basically a way to get a list of mods, with description, links, FAQ's, screenshots (where appplicable) etc etc, click on a Mod to download/install and automatic update checks. Obviously needs to be cross-platform. I think I've seen mention of some tools but they were Windows only.

To go with that it would also be useful to have a Mod framework - an empty Mod which just has the bare-bones metadata files included (a readme, version, license, etc) to ensure a minimum of consistency. This might also help new modders to get started. Going even further, a Mod Publishing Tool, which could check the Mod for errors, and automatically package and upload it to the repository. Yes, I'm a Linux guy. I like repositories instead of hundreds of individual apps each checking for updates themselves as seems to be the preferred way on Windows.

None of this would preclude mod authors from also offering their mods via alternate channels, nor restricts the license terms etc.

Anyway, a guy can dream (I tried to get something similar going in another game a long time ago but similar to here, there was a lack of interest by the mod authors..) In the meantime, looking forward for more awesome mods by the very talented modding community here!

[ferram4]

Ah, seems there is a bit of miss-communication here.

I like options too. I don't want to tell you where to upload your mod. I don't want to tell you how to organize the directory structure. I do not care about the licensing you choose. I like the fact that you have options. I WANT YOU TO HAVE OPTIONS!

But in the latest package manager shenanigans thread you essentially argued for Squad removing options in what we could do with respect to directory structure in order to support package manager / mod manager programs. I hope you understand that when you go and start talking about what Squad needs to do to make such things happen, and that those things include restricting options for what we can do, that I will consider that you don't want us to have as many options now as we had before.

But I also want to FIND YOUR MOD!!

Google is your friend. Think Google is Skynet? Use Bing. In any case, relying on forum / other site embedded search functions is silly at best.

I am calling to attention the fact that Mods are hosted (Read: Displayed) everywhere.

Sounds like this is a problem of having too many options...

But I would at least like to start a dialog about possible benefits for mod authors and mod users alike!

There really aren't any that don't come with their own issues. If it becomes easier for users to install mods, suddenly more support requests will pop up from users that come up with new and even more inventive ways to break things. For mod users, whatever each of us uses right now seems to work quite fine, and very few jump on any of these projects to make things better, since they probably aren't going to make things better.

Did you know a single file added to your mod could let everyone know when you update it? OF COURSE YOU DO! You already put a ".version" file in your mods that allows KSP-AVC to check for updates!

Which doesn't work, because it doesn't include the ability to handle down to the build in versioning, which means that it breaks for FAR hotfixes. Odds are I'll remove it whenever I get around to cleaning things out because of that, since it essentially defeats the purpose of having it there if it doesn't work.

But what if that ".version" file could do more? These are the things that should be talked about

Like what? There's really nothing that I think it should do to be honest.

[TheAlmightyOS]

Just a quick point here. This is not actually very true. KSP is reluctantly and capriciously moddable. It wasn't originally conceived with mods in mind and the mod support that's been added has been somewhat tacked-on. There's very little API documentation, and what there is is spread out all over the place. Devs, for instance, spent some time adding hooks for the new contract features, but [thread=86588]it's only been documented[/thread] by a modder, who had to do a bunch of trial and error testing to figure out how to use them. Part of this is because KSP is a work in progress and devs are focused on adding new features, rightly noting that the modding community seems to be able to help itself. KSP's license prohibits decompilation so debugging and code tracing are tedious and difficult and frustrating. (Compare to Minecraft, where its permissive license has fomented the creation of the MCP and other standardized mod development packages.) I think many modders (and players) would be more than happy for Squad to take a dev-cycle to clean up, expand, standardize and document the mod API. It's probably the case that the ad-hoc nature of the interface is somewhat responsible for the ad-hoc nature of the modding scene.

Your points are well taken though. I think the only short-term solution is to have someone volunteer to be a maintainer. They'd have to create some sort of mark-up file library that could be used by a tool to do version checks and downloads and installations and updates.

I did a face-palm when I realized these are two sides to the same coin:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/85989-Combining-efforts-on-proper-mod-management-framework-tools-platform

Keks is attempting to create sort of a meta-repo. The basic idea is each mod would have this meta file uploaded to the repo, ether by the author or a maintainer. That meta file could be used in programs to browse, search, install and update mods. The current discussion in that thread is who would maintain the files.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/79745-0-24-2-KSP-AVC-Add-on-Version-Checker-Plugin-1-0-4-KSP-AVC-Online

An established plugin already, cybutek's KSP-AVC requires a *.version file be placed in the mod folder.

If these two efforts were combined, if we expanded the *.version file to have more information then authors could post anywhere they wanted and the user could just browse the repo.

That is ONE idea anyway. Lot's of different ways we can do this

[Tiberion]

A few thoughts:

If you need to put "Rant" in your thread title, consider just not making the post. You're making it less likely for people to even consider what you say, not more likely.

The modding scene isn't going to "explode" when KSP 1.0 arrives. The technical skill required for modding limits the pool of available modders, and people from that pool aren't as likely to "wait for release" as the general gamer might be. It may increase, but not drastically.

You may not like the forum, but it is perfectly adequate as a modding hub. It has a mod index that is searchable (via Google even) and popularity is built-in by thread activity. And it holds a great advantage over any other type of site; it allows you to maintain a community, gather feedback, discuss issues, and find help. If the majority of activity moved away from the forums, the modding scene would be harmed.

There will never be a single site. Its technically impossible. Plugin authors need the functionality provided by github, but github is not a filehost and its not appropriate for all mods to host there.

The real solution will be to have a standard format required by the game, including meta-data. There will be a time to ask Squad for that, but that time is not now, not when the game isn't feature complete. You can't standardize without everything in place, it defeats the purpose. This is doubly true since the game will undergo a huge change when multiplayer is added. Who knows how asset loading will change in accordance with that.

Quite frankly, the way it works now... works. It's pure hyperbole to say you can't find mods.

If you absolutely must be angry at someone, be angry with Squad. Spaceport sucked. Anyone who used is as an author should tell you that. No API, the stats were bogus, and the service itself worked only some of the time. The replacement was supposed to be feature-rich and custom built with what we needed. Squad decided it wasn't worth the expenditure and outsourced it to Curse. Even if it remains stable it won't provide the functionality you're looking for. Nonetheless it is the THE official source and there is not likely to be support for another from Squad.

The forums as a community base and a community-run file-host/repository to better index the mods are as good as it's going to get. But none of them will ever been anywhere near 100% adopted.

I'm not sure why you think we "need to start talking about it" - we have always been talking about it. You aren't telling us anything we weren't aware of a year ago, maybe even two. If you want to get involved or stay involved, that is great. This isn't how to do it.

[TheAlmightyOS]

-lots of hate-

Ok. Let's try something different.

Why do you make mods?

[regex]

I'm not sure why you think we "need to start talking about it" - we have always been talking about it. You aren't telling us anything we weren't aware of a year ago, maybe even two. If you want to get involved or stay involved, that is great. This isn't how to do it.

This should be reiterated. OP is just another in the line trying to tell modders how to do things their way. Why not just leave be and be happy that people who want to share are doing so?

[ferram4]

Ok. Let's try something different.

Why do you make mods?

Because I like making the game fit the way I think it should be. I release it to users so that they can make sure that there are no bugs in it so that when I'm playing, I don't run into bugs. Besides that, dealing with the KSP API is a fun challenge.

But now that I've answered your question, I'll ask again:

But what if that ".version" file could do more? These are the things that should be talked about.

Like what? You obviously have something in mind, or you wouldn't have said this; what was it?

[TheAlmightyOS]

A few thoughts:

If you need to put "Rant" in your thread...

Removed.

The modding scene isn't going to "explode" when KSP 1.0 arrives. The technical skill required for modding limits the pool of available modders, and people from that pool aren't as likely to "wait for release" as the general gamer might be. It may increase, but not drastically.

I do not agree. I believe the ability to mod the game will become easier over time, just as it does with any other game. However, playing devils advocate, lets say it doesn't and you have the same pool of modders. Now you have a MUCH larger audience. You have many more people posting the the forms, asking the same question about how to install your mod for the 300th time...

You may not like the forum, but it is perfectly adequate as a modding hub. It has a mod index that is searchable (via Google even) and popularity is built-in by thread activity. And it holds a great advantage over any other type of site; it allows you to maintain a community, gather feedback, discuss issues, and find help. If the majority of activity moved away from the forums, the modding scene would be harmed.

The forum is great. For the mod authors. For the users it is very difficult to browse (notice I did not say SEARCH)

There will never be a single site. Its technically impossible. Plugin authors need the functionality provided by github, but github is not a filehost and its not appropriate for all mods to host there.

Did I say there should be a single site for the authors in this post? Cause if I did messed up somewhere. I do not think that

The real solution will be to have a standard format required by the game, including meta-data. There will be a time to ask Squad for that, but that time is not now, not when the game isn't feature complete. You can't standardize without everything in place, it defeats the purpose. This is doubly true since the game will undergo a huge change when multiplayer is added. Who knows how asset loading will change in accordance with that.

I agree on all counts. I am just trying to 1) Find and 2) Update mods.

Quite frankly, the way it works now... works. It's pure hyperbole to say you can't find mods.

Find? Well, I suppose I could find your mods easily, or the mods listed in Community Library. Google is easy enough to use. But, and really think about this idea and not the retort you want to make: What if you don't know what you are looking for? What if you are browsing. Chatterer is a great example of this. It's a goofy little plugin that adds background jibberish. There is no flipping way I would have found that via search as I would never search for background noise. However it is one of my must have mods.

If you absolutely must be angry at someone, be angry with Squad. Spaceport sucked. Anyone who used is as an author should tell you that. No API, the stats were bogus, and the service itself worked only some of the time. The replacement was supposed to be feature-rich and custom built with what we needed. Squad decided it wasn't worth the expenditure and outsourced it to Curse. Even if it remains stable it won't provide the functionality you're looking for. Nonetheless it is the THE official source and there is not likely to be support for another from Squad.

Almost everyone is upset with the move curse. It is definitely ranked low on my list of modding communities. I am just trying to do what I can to fix what we got and to do that we need to talk. Just like we are talking now.

The forums as a community base and a community-run file-host/repository to better index the mods are as good as it's going to get. But none of them will ever been anywhere near 100% adopted.

I'm not sure why you think we "need to start talking about it" - we have always been talking about it. You aren't telling us anything we weren't aware of a year ago, maybe even two. If you want to get involved or stay involved, that is great. This isn't how to do it.

Then how do I do it, hum? sit on my **** thumbs? Yeah, everyone has been talking about one way or another, mostly just cursing curse and then what? Nothing? You know what I am doing to get involved? Getting people talking TOGETHER. Working on solutions TOGETHER! Get ideas from the the authors themselves and try to work that into a usable solution. THAT is what I am doing. Now I want to work with you Tiberion! I want to work with Mr.Shifty. I want to work with ferram4 and everyone here!

I am not here to fight you! I am here to work with you!

[NathanKell]

I don't think this discussion is unproductive per se--although it's not the first or the twenty-first time we've had it, and a little googling would show all these points, except the mentions of Curse, have been brought up many times before--but I would implore the modders to accept that users in general post in good faith, and those who do not spend their time modding to accept that modders are already overstretched in terms of workload (and in particular support workload) and that making it even easier for low-skill users to find and break their mods, make them spend more time catering to this segment, is not going to endear you to them.

Edited August 4, 2014 by NathanKell

[Seeker89]

To me... I don't really find a problem in the modding community.

Most of the Modders that have been problems get flushed out. Problems mostly being not listening to what the people want, and most of the long term, higher wanted modders do that very well.

Now finding mods are really really easy; google/bing, forum search (it does work for me), and last and most important community. Go back to the Add-on Requests and Support

area, post what you are looking for and 9.999 out of 10 there is an answer.

As far as different downloading sites are a problem, it's not. Many many games have different places to download mods and add-ons, it's up to the modders to decide what is the best and easiest for them to update. Most modders here even use more then one.

My cents on this.

Seeker

[Padishar]

Ok. Let's try something different.

Why do you make mods?

Your summarising of ferram4's post #15 as "-lots of hate-" is totally inaccurate and totally out-of-order. You are not going to convince modders of anything other than to ignore you if you continue as you are...

I am not here to fight you! I am here to work with you!

Perhaps we might be more inclined to believe that if you cut out the shouting (caps) too...

Edited August 4, 2014 by Padishar

[TheAlmightyOS]

Because I like making the game fit the way I think it should be. I release it to users so that they can make sure that there are no bugs in it so that when I'm playing, I don't run into bugs. Besides that, dealing with the KSP API is a fun challenge.

OK. Every Author is different. You do so for the challenge and to make the game the way you want it. For you I can understand why you are resistant to some of the ideas mentioned here. First off, I am looking for solutions. Those solutions might not fit you. That does not mean I am going to force you to fit the solution. Secondly: There was an issue that was being discussed in another thread about the difficulties of creating a modification manager. I said that unless Squad enforces some sort of standardization that it would not work. I was only makeing a point. I do not want to take your choices away. That is not an option.

Like what? You obviously have something in mind, or you wouldn't have said this; what was it?

This is just a glimmer of a spark of an idea, but....

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/85989-Combining-efforts-on-proper-mod-management-framework-tools-platform

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/79745-0-24-2-KSP-AVC-Add-on-Version-Checker-Plugin-1-0-4-KSP-AVC-Online

If we combine these two projects, it may be possible to create a mod manager without the mod authors doing anything asside from putting a .version file in their mod. As for what would be in that file that is another discussion and one I plan to have in the above threads.

ferram4, I know you mentioned not liking the .version file and planning to remove it. If I may ask, could you (if you have not done so) post your issues in that thread so that it can be improved?