Sandbox Mode should not have fewer features than Career Mode

[Kasuha]

"I'd like a bicycle, but I don't want it to have two wheels".

Have you ever heard of toy cars? They look like cars, you can move them by your hand, but they have no engine. By your measures, they're completely useless. But by measures of many young people, they're a lot of fun.

[EuSouONumero345]

I'd be cool if science equipment had at least a use in sandbox mode; what is the point of having science parts unlocked if you can't use them properly?

[Red Iron Crown]

"I'd like a bicycle, but I don't want it to have two wheels".

I cannot understand what contracts even *are* without money, or what the game's science even *is* without a tech tree. I can't even picture what you're asking for because it's self-contradictory.

It's exactly like career mode, except you have unlimited science and money. You can still do things to earn science or money, but they aren't necessary.

The real question is how reputation would fit in. You sort of need it to control the progression of contracts; having unlimited reputation would mean only advanced contracts would appear (though that might be the desired behavior). Maybe have reputation increase normally but have no penalties?

[Superfluous J]

Actually it would be pretty trivial to make 3 modman configs to turn career into either effectively science or effectively sandbox, and science to effectively sandbox.

career -> science, set the cost of all parts to 0.

science -> sandbox, set the science gain from the launchpad to be something really high so that doing a crew report there gets you enough science to unlock the entire tree.

career -> sandbox, do both.

If I have time this weekend I may even make 3 configs, carience.cfg, scindbox.cfg, and carndbox.cfg. Or actually I think carndbox.cfg would work for both of the latter 2 cases.

[pellinor]

I sometimes use sandbox as a 'simulation' or 'test' mode. From this view it would be quite important to see the science result of a mission. Or if a certain action will satisfy a contract. Or see this message that my crew pod will not hold a second surface sample from the same place.

[chaos_forge]

The real question is how reputation would fit in. You sort of need it to control the progression of contracts; having unlimited reputation would mean only advanced contracts would appear (though that might be the desired behavior). Maybe have reputation increase normally but have no penalties?

I'm a bit undecided about reputation. It might be best to keep it unchanged, seeing as how it serves (or should serve) to provide contracts appropriate to the player's skill level. Also, (at least for now) it's absurdly easy to max out your reputation (reputation mechanic needs a lot more work IMO).

[Wanderfound]

The question is: will presence of that feature harm your personal game experience in any way?

There's substantial difference between 'I don't care if it is there' and 'I'll have less fun if it is there'. And IMO only the second case is valid as argument against the suggestion.

Yup.

You can edit the persistence file, give yourself just the right amount of science to cover the tech tree, and a large sum of money. Then you can play 'sandbox in career'.

You don't even need to do that: you can edit funds and science from within the hidden second alt-F12 menu. Start a career game, give yourself a squillion science, unlock the tech tree, zero your science back out.

This is a really good idea for a feature to improve sandbox, and I endorse it heartily. But I think it's a feature that's already in the game. Maybe just add an "unlock all nodes" function somewhere if you have sufficient science.

[Coccalime]

I definitely agree that science should be gatherable in sandbox mode, and contracts could be interesting too. My only concern with contracts would be that the game wouldn't really know what contracts to generate without the progression of a career mode, not saying I wouldn't like to see it just that it might be a little difficult.

Science though should most definitely be gatherable and you should be able to access the science records as well. That way even if you end a flight, you can still have a list of your accomplishments.

Also I don't think you should count using the debug menu as "in the game" this should be the default way sandbox mode works, not just a debug way of playing career.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Coccalime

[MartGonzo]

yep, seems like a good idea to me, I don't see any down side to adding science and contracts to sandbox.

not having anything to do once I get to my destination is the main reason I never play sandbox

[RocketPilot573]

In my opinion, instead of "science mode" and stuff, I think sandbox should just have a bunch of options when creating the save. This way you can just choose what game features you want.

[astropapi1]

I've already created a thread about this here:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/89279-Please-enable-science-reports-in-Sandbox%21

So I'm just gonna copy/paste what I wrote on that thread:

It's been two major updates since we got the first version of science reports, and all this time, they have been "blocked" in sandbox mode. What do I mean by "blocked"?

*Inspirational orchestral music*

This is it, this is your moment. After all these years of crashing into the VAB, you have finally managed to put your Laythe lander probe on an encounter trajectory. You slam into the atmosphere going at 10 kilometers per second or more, retro rockets fire, heatshield falls on the ocean, and the probe safely touches down on the beach. "What will Laythe's atmosphere do to the mystery goo I have brought along all the way from Kerbin?" you think.

"This experiment is useless with the R&D building closed and all your efforts are fruitless. Have a good day."

And just like that, the game reminds you that all your effort was in vain, because you ain't getting these reports unless you pay for 'em!.

This is a game about space exploration, damnit! I didn't land on Minmus just for a few "science" points, I landed there because I wanted to know what it tasted like!

I have seen a lot of threads come up since the release of 0.22, but SQUAD hasn't given us an official word on the topic. Is it really hard to write a short article about it, or even post a comment on one of these threads?

I was really dissapointed when 0.22 came out because of this, and nothing has changed since then.

I don't want the instant gratification of unlocking parts and getting money, I want to do science for kerbalkind in my whole roleplaying world, and I'm sure I speak for a great part of the community when I say there is absolutely no sense in restricting sandbox players from getting science reports in a game about space exploration.

We're not asking for a tech tree and R&D, just change the "This is meaningless" reports to the REAL ONES. Please!

[Dunbaratu]

Have you ever heard of toy cars? They look like cars, you can move them by your hand, but they have no engine. By your measures, they're completely useless. But by measures of many young people, they're a lot of fun.

You've pretended I said something I didn't. I'm not talking about whether the idea is useless or not. I'm talking about the act of *communicating* the idea, and how that *communication* of the idea is useless if it contains an unexplained contradiction. The contradiction in the description means I have no idea if the idea is useless, because I don't know what the idea even IS in the first place. The contradiction in the description makes it impossible to envision what the OP had in mind.

I'm talking about the contradiction in wanting the money part of the game to exist, while at the same time NOT wanting the money part of the game to exist. I'm talking about the contradiction in wanting the science part of the game to exist, while at the same time NOT wanting the science part of the game to exist. That contradiction has to be broken apart into individual pieces, and the pieces explained in particular detail to make the contradiction go away and make the proposal understandable.

With what the OP is proposing,

Which PORTION of science is in, and which PORTION is out? Simply saying you want science in sandbox is the contradictory description of saying you both want the science features to exist and not exist at the same time. To break that contradiction, you have to break out the lump term "science" into smaller parts, and describe them individually. Which PARTS do you want in, and which PARTS do you want out?

And the same question exists for the money system (of which contracts are a part) Which PORTION of money is in, and which PORTION of money is out? Given that sandbox has no money, what do you want the effect of completing a contract to actually be then?

[Schmonzo]

Its not Sandbox if you have contracts or science. It would hinder me playing sandbox, because it sets a set of rules upon it. If you want contracts play career. If you are too lazy to unlock anything cheat. But don't turn sandbox into a cheaty career mode. It's called sandbox because you create your own world. If you need contracts to guide you through the game you really should just play career.

[Kasuha]

Its not Sandbox if you have contracts or science. It would hinder me playing sandbox, because it sets a set of rules upon it.

I really don't understand the logic behind this statement.

Career:

- science is mandatory; you need science points to get access to technology

- contracts are mandatory; you need contracts to gain funds to build ships

Science:

- science is mandatory; you need science points to get access to technology

- contracts are optional; you are not limited by funds but can still enjoy your list of completed contracts

Contracts:

- science is optional; you have access to all parts but can still enjoy your science archives

- contracts are mandatory; you need contracts to gain funds to build ships

Sandbox:

- science is optional; you have access to all parts but can still enjoy your science archives

- contracts are optional; you are not limited by funds but can still enjoy your list of completed contracts

What's so hard to understand on this? How does it place any set of rules if it's optional and you're free to ignore it in given mode?

[Coccalime]

Sandbox:

- science is optional; you have access to all parts but can still enjoy your science archives

- contracts are optional; you are not limited by funds but can still enjoy your list of completed contracts

This is the most important thing for people who don't like the idea to realize. If you don't want contracts, just don't click on the building. If you don't want to collect science don't take EVA reports or don't use sensors. But there's no reason to not allow people to do it in sandbox if they want to. Like people have said sandbox is supposed to let you do what you want so if you want to have contract records and science archives then why not.

[chaos_forge]

Sandbox:

- science is optional; you have access to all parts but can still enjoy your science archives [and get normal science reports instead of "the R&D facility is closed"]

- contracts are optional; you are not limited by funds but can still enjoy your list of completed contracts

To answer Steven Mading's question, this is pretty much what I had in mind. Something that would be nice but definitely not neccessary would be for the science and funds counters to still be available. This would not be a limit: if you spend more funds/science than you make, the counters would go into the negatives, but there would be no gameplay repercussions.

[Francois424]

+1 vote for this feature. (gaining science, and be able to do contracts in Sandbox).

I'd like to also suggest that when you create a new game, one can only "check" the checkbox beside the option s/he wants ?

Something like (yes some options aren't in stock yet, and may never be, but bear with me on this):

X Contracts

_ Science Tree

X Science Gain

X Resources

_ Deadly Re-Entry

_ Accurate Atmospheric model

_ Life Support

Just a thought.

[Rusty6899]

I don't really play sandbox now that career is nicely up and running. I have to say I do find grinding through the tech tree to be quite tedious.

My thoughts on the matter are as follows, I do not see why anyone would really care about science points in sandbox, as it would just be a rapidly increasing number with no real benefit. Maybe some people would be interested to see how many they have accrued, but it does seem like a bit of a strange pursuit. I do think that sandbox mode should have the science reports as they are a nice, if small, reward for your achievements.

[Twreed87]

This doesn't really make sense to me. If you want to play in an open world where you can launch a ship to wherever, whenever, play Sandbox. If you want a structured game with progression and certain specific challenges, play Career. Why muddle the two up in such a confusing way?

Contracts don't even make sense for Sandbox. Without any sort of progression, the game would have no way of knowing what sort of missions to generate. The entire reward/fee system would be pointless. The whole contracts system was designed with career mode in mind.

All you're basically asking for is to turn Sandbox into Career with Infinite Currency. If that's what you want, mod your save file. Bam, done. But let the two game types remain distinct things.

[klgraham1013]

The science archive in sandbox could be useful.

[adsii1970]

Ok, I am a newbie to the game and actually have one of each that I regularly play. I actually have more fun in the "sandbox" mode because it is where I design and test the craft I will use in the other two saved game types. It really depends on my mood as to which one I play, but nevertheless, I do have fun. Isn't that the purpose of any game - to have fun and get some enjoyment out of it? Even in career mode, there have been contracts I have ignored simply because it did not appeal to me. The only thing I would suggest is to create a mod that would allow the user to set some personal goals for a sandbox game, to include a "complete by" or "accumulate X amount" items in a checkbox list. Once they are achieved... who knows (just an idea, albeit a stupid one!)

With that being said, if there were anything that I would change about all three modes is that I wish there were a "back" button on the craft building screens. There have been times that I have gone in to move or remove a part and end up with the entire wing (or engine/tank assembly) instead of the strut or other small part. A "back" button would allow me to revert - with one click - back to the point before my mouse was misaligned. This would prevent hours of frustration for me (at least).

[SpannerMonkey(smce)]

I wish there were a "back" button on the craft building screens. There have been times that I have gone in to move or remove a part and end up with the entire wing (or engine/tank assembly) instead of the strut or other small part. A "back" button would allow me to revert - with one click - back to the point before my mouse was misaligned. This would prevent hours of frustration for me (at least).

CTRL+Z is what you're looking for It will revert a number of previous actions , though sometimes takes a while for it to do it.

[adsii1970]

CTRL+Z is what you're looking for It will revert a number of previous actions , though sometimes takes a while for it to do it.

And I want to express a big THANK YOU to SpannerMonkey for letting me know that! Wish I had known that back when I first started playing!

[EnderSpace]

Yes it should have I think science I hate when doing science in other planets and it say , it's hard to decide this useful or not and the D&R is closed

[chaos_forge]

I just wanted to let everyone know that the devs have at least partially heard our pleas: The "R&D facility is closed" messages are gone from sandbox!

evidence: http://youtu.be/o5XSkds5Glw?t=14m40s