Feelings about being able to fly without MechJeb

[Red Iron Crown]

I know some other KSP players on various social networks, and it always feels weird when they act like my being able to fly a rocket manually is freakish.

I'm on the other side of this. I find some players' ability to pilot downright amazing. I use MechJeb but can do the things it does, what impresses me is when someone does something that MechJeb can't.

[tater]

I was referring to that part: "Mechjeb actually seems entirely realistic".

The end of that sentence was "from the standpoint of a couple different styles of play."

One was a manager, who is not in fact a pilot.

Apparently the other mod you suggest makes more sense from the 2d example of a pilot using computer tools.

BTW, such tools should really be a development in the tech tree. Start with the nav ball, work up to even having the map view

And yes - I wouldn't mind seeing an "autopilot" build in a principle that Kerbals are piloting - but that implies "kerbal factor" in, which means: each time you let them handle something - you might expect random explosions occurring.

I'm against 100% reliable and ideal autopilot unless it's in a form similar to the kOS. That at least gives you some very slight idea of what challenges are involved into getting an automated ship do what you want it to do (though again - kOS in itself is very, very "easy-mode").

I agree completely. Make "stupidity" mean something. A suggestion might be to randomize the success A 100% stupid might get the node burn done wight +-5% to as bad as +-20%, whereas 10 0% stupid guy might be 0 to +-5% or something. Docking or landing… scary.

[Wanderfound]

BTW, such tools should really be a development in the tech tree. Start with the nav ball, work up to even having the map view

Endorsed. Using the tech tree to guide players into learning manually before automation is an obviously good idea. Keep the full range available in Sandbox for them that wants it.

I wonder if there's an audience for an extreme version of BTSM? Start with Congreve rockets and unpowered Da Vinci gliders type thing.

[baijuncheng]

I use MechJeb, not because I can't fly manually, but because I don't want to. I'd rather focus on planning missions and designing crafts to undertake them. When I begin a new career game, I have to fly manually until I can unlock the appropriate MechJeb modules, then MJ does most of my flying (unless it decides to be ......, which it does sometimes).

[ChrisHale]

I haven't used MechJeb yet because I like it when I make mistakes and have to rescue MeatJeb from whatever predicament I left him in. Learning the basics though was tough, but I ran across Scott Manley's channel soon after I found the game, and after about 6 hours of watching him I had a pretty good handle on launches, rendezvouses, and transfers. He's a really good teacher.

[Clockwork_werewolf]

Also, 50% better fuel use? You must have been screaming through the lower atmo.

Not really, all I would have to be doing was 150% of terminal velocity. 215m/s at 4k instead of 150, 270m/s at 6k. If you have a high starting G and never throttle down this is very easy. I'm not sure it was really 50% all the time more like an average of 30% maybe but it was a big saving for slowing down just a little.

I would also like to point out to people that the original post was about peoples feelings of not using Machjeb NOT should he use Machjeb.

Feelings about being able to fly without MechJeb

. The very next post was about justifying Machjeb even though he said he had no problem with it

I get people who use MechJeb because they'd rather focus on ship design than flying.

. People seem to jump on any discussion including Machjeb with defensive comments before anyone has said anything negative. This seem to lead people into having to argue about these points.

[nine_iron]

I use mechjeb for two reasons:

1) To save time when testing parts of my ship, ie to send unmanned testbeds into orbit etc while planning a manned mission to other planets. It just means I can test what I want to while making a cup of tea!

2) When I am playing KSP in the mornings before work, I want to run a quick mission or test OR just have a bit of fun with my spacestation and I don't have a lot of time.

[SelectHalfling0]

I still use mechjeb for delta v plotting and some crazy course adjustments, but when I first rendezvoused without mj's help, I felt like I accomplished something great! MJ is also useful for roving (it can automatically drive your rover so that you don't have to sit there holding w key)

Edited August 31, 2014 by SelectHalfling0
added rover stuff

[WWEdeadman]

This is exactly the kind of thing that I will not tolerate. It can be your opinion, but you don't need to come onto the forums to tell people they have the skills of a dead monkey. It is unacceptable. Your first post has already started to derail the thread.

WWEdeadman is not the only one sliding down this path. Stay on track of discussion of what you do or don't do with MechJeb, why you don't like it or do, and whatever else you may or may not use it for. I see no need to tell people that they cheat because they do or don't use it, or to try to veil insults about their skills.

Up until this page the discussions have remained on a track that is leaps better than in the past. Keep it that way or this thread will end up like the others.

~Claw

I beg to differ on your opinion of what "derailing a thread" means, and you might have read agression/insults into text that doesn't have any, but have it your way. I just can't stand people that act like MechJeb is an essential part of the game, without which you can't fly stuff, like the ones mentioned in the OP of this thread. Telling someone "You're bad at this game" isn't an insult, and if you take offense in that you should probably check your priorities. The dead monkey statement was a joke, if anyone didn't understand that the way I meant it, I'm sorry. Unfortunately there isn't a specific font for sarcasm and cynism yet.

One extremely narrow example to consider as people banter about how automation is cheaty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoland

Airbus is all about automation. Many airliners have crew selections for throttle settings (takeoff, cruise, land) and the computer decides how fast the engines need to run based on a variety of conditions. Airbus even forces their airplanes to pitch down during landing, so as to force the pilots to actually interact during the landing phase. Something like a Beechcraft 1900 can fly an instrument approach but can't land itself. Something like a T-38 can't fly itself during any phase of flight and requires a pilot on the controls at all times. Each aircraft has it's own challenges and kinds of people who fly them.

Seriously, it's a video game. Go enjoy your free time.

Cheers,

~Claw

Ummm... You know, THAT is real life, KSP is a game. There is literally nothing actually at risk in flying a plane into a building or into the ground in KSP. Comparing reallife automation for safety reasons, with a game playing itself is a bit far fetched, IMO.

[Felsmak]

I fail to understand why you care so deeply about how other people choose to play their copies of the game. No one is obligated to become good at it or accept any of the challenges it offers, and your idea of fun is not universal.

KSP is a game. A pastime. Something you play with when you're bored. The fact that you "didn't use any mods for over 200 hours of gameplay, and still got to and landed on a lot of planets/moons" is not relevant to anyone in any way whatsoever, and at the end of the day you haven't really accomplished anything. You've just had your fun for a little while, and so has everyone else who plays it. How they go about doing it isn't even worth having an opinion about, and if you act like they're doing something wrong or neglecting some kind of responsibility just because their idea of fun differs from yours, then that makes you come off as pompous and quite rude.

OnT: I don't even use MechJeb myself. I used to install it once in a while whenever I got bored with launching rocket after rocket, but then it went bananas for some reason, and I haven't bothered with it since.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Felsmak

[Javster]

I use MechJeb, not because I can't fly manually, but because I don't want to. I'd rather focus on planning missions and designing crafts to undertake them. When I begin a new career game, I have to fly manually until I can unlock the appropriate MechJeb modules, then MJ does most of my flying (unless it decides to be ......, which it does sometimes).

That's great design by the MJ devs: if you can get most of the tech tree unlocked, you can get into orbit easily, therefore automating it makes sense.

[Torham234]

Oh, look! A MJ thread!

*sits next to Jhadden123 and puts on 3D glasses*

[Technical Ben]

I know some other KSP players on various social networks, and it always feels weird when they act like my being able to fly a rocket manually is freakish.

I get people who use MechJeb because they'd rather focus on ship design than flying.

I don't get people who act like you must be some sort of savant in order to fly manually.

Lol. Great that you enjoy flying too! I love doing orbital manoeuvres and docking by hand. Real fun and can get exciting when things go wrong. It's just launches and transfer burns I automate, so I can go make a cup of tea, read a book, etc.

[draeath]

My warmest fuzzy so far was not in fact landing on Mun, but designing a rocket such that almost no attitude control input is required for ascent beyond the first 100m/s (with FAR, because stock aerodynamics is pants). Aerodynamics takes care of the rest - all I need to do past that critical first few seconds is adjust the throttle to govern my ascent path (throttle up and it noses up, throttle down and it noses down)

... just like altitude changes in a cruising airliner

Of course, mechjeb all the way once I'm in orbit. I can do what it does, but it has a much faster reaction time and finer throttle/attitude control than myself.

Except for docking, because that's stupid fun (caveat: I use the alignment indicator because wtf don't we have that already? )

Edited August 31, 2014 by draeath

[r_rolo1]

I beg to differ on your opinion of what "derailing a thread" means, and you might have read agression/insults into text that doesn't have any, but have it your way. I just can't stand people that act like MechJeb is an essential part of the game, without which you can't fly stuff, like the ones mentioned in the OP of this thread. Telling someone "You're bad at this game" isn't an insult, and if you take offense in that you should probably check your priorities. The dead monkey statement was a joke, if anyone didn't understand that the way I meant it, I'm sorry. Unfortunately there isn't a specific font for sarcasm and cynism yet.

I owe you a apology. Your position, while not being equal to mine, at least it is coherent: if you can't do it all by yourself, either being the piloting or the development, you are cheating, but if you can do it and only skip those to cut the tedium of the repeated task, it is not ... I can't say I agree, but it is atleast a better standing ground than others have stated through the times. OFC you were probably a little too abrasive, but being abrasive does not make you right or wrong ...

Ummm... You know, THAT is real life, KSP is a game. There is literally nothing actually at risk in flying a plane into a building or into the ground in KSP. Comparing reallife automation for safety reasons, with a game playing itself is a bit far fetched, IMO.

One of the side discussions that always appears in the mechjeb thread is why some people are completely against automation ( or atleast Mechjeb kind of automation ) and how diferent is real life in those terms ( my favourite example is how Gagarin was literally locked out of controlling his ship in Humanity first sucessful manned space flight by a 4 digit code lock and with orders to only mark the code and assume control if things were going down the drain. The code BTW, was there to prevent a possibly not sane Gagarin ( the effects of being in LEO were literally unknown ) to assume control the ship ).

Claw was just pointing out that automation is everywhere in the aerospatial and aeronautical worlds since ages and the trend from quite a while ago is to go more automated ( in fact, one of the issues of the aeronautical world now is that planes appear to be too automated and that the pilots as a average are losing skills to deal with any issue that makes the computers have errors, like what happened in Air France 447 crash, where apparently the pilots in charge at the time both didn't recognize a autopilot unusual reaction ( caused by a temporary icing in the speed sensors of the plane ) and , more seriously, didn't recognized a clear stall situation and acted in the less adequate way possible. The only person that recognized the situation, the senior captain, came to the cockpit too late to save the situation ). His point is that in his opinion there is no point of forcing people to be in a harder position while in a game where they fly rockets and planes for fun than in a real life plane where you have hundreds of souls on your care just because. Your point about seriousness and risk, while trying to a awnser to Claw "seriously" , it is in quite a tangent on his point IMHO ...

Edited August 31, 2014 by r_rolo1

[Wanderfound]

I fail to understand why you care so deeply about how other people choose to play their copies of the game. No one is obligated to become good at it or accept any of the challenges it offers, and your idea of fun is not universal.

KSP is a game. A pastime. Something you play with when you're bored. The fact that you "didn't use any mods for over 200 hours of gameplay, and still got to and landed on a lot of planets/moons" is not relevant to anyone in any way whatsoever, and at the end of the day you haven't really accomplished anything. You've just had your fun for a little while, and so has everyone else who plays it. How they go about doing it isn't even worth having an opinion about, and if you act like they're doing something wrong or neglecting some kind of responsibility just because their idea of fun differs from yours, then that makes you come off as pompous and quite rude.

Seconded.

If your sense of self-worth has anything to do with the style in which you play a computer game, then you've got bigger issues than whether or not you should use an autopilot. If you want to brag, go do something that matters first. Publish some research papers, save some lives, raise a family, bake a cake.

Games are fun, and KSP is a lot more fun than most, but it's still just a game.

[TimePeriod]

You have to learn to fly an aircraft manually. Since this will determine how you build your aircraft.

If you don't know how to make an aircraft and the way COL/COM works, how do you plan to pilot it?

Later when you have mastered(to a degree) the art of aircraft construction and piloting of said aircraft, you can start using MJ.

[EdFred]

You have to learn to fly an aircraft manually. Since this will determine how you build your aircraft.

If you don't know how to make an aircraft and the way COL/COM works, how do you plan to pilot it?

Later when you have mastered(to a degree) the art of aircraft construction and piloting of said aircraft, you can start using MJ.

There are many people that work in aircraft design that are not pilots. There is no prerequisite for being a pilot to build anything.

[TimePeriod]

There are many people that work in aircraft design that are not pilots. There is no prerequisite for being a pilot to build anything.

As far as I know we were discussing this game and not real life. How you make that comparison, is beyond me. You cannot rationalize a game with reality.

In this game YOU are piloting your own creations, thus you become the designer and the operator. So if you don't even know how to operate your own creation...???

[Red Iron Crown]

As far as I know we were discussing this game and not real life. How you make that comparison, is beyond me. You cannot rationalize a game with reality.

In this game YOU are piloting your own creations, thus you become the designer and the operator. So if you don't even know how to operate your own creation...???

That's the whole point though. If a player has mechjeb pilot all their craft, they can still design well. You don't have to "master" piloting to design in KSP.

[TimePeriod]

That's the whole point though. If a player has mechjeb pilot all their craft, they can still design well. You don't have to "master" piloting to design in KSP.

But how will you know how the plane handles if you have not tested the aircraft? Put it through stress tests, loops and everything in between?

Telling a program how to put an aircraft into a dangerous situation seems counter-intuitive to me.

Long duration flights yes, I agree MJ is a valid option.

Short flight around KSC No, you need to learn to do that. There is no better way to figure out how your aircraft handles then hands-on approach.

MJ is an option for not having to do something which takes a godforsaken long time, not a substitute for poor-flying skills. (which can be improved)

[Wanderfound]

But how will you know how the plane handles if you have not tested the aircraft? Put it through stress tests, loops and everything in between?

Telling a program how to put an aircraft into a dangerous situation seems counter-intuitive to me.

Long duration flights yes, I agree MJ is a valid option.

Short flight around KSC No, you need to learn to do that. There is no better way to figure out how your aircraft handles then hands-on approach.

MJ is an option for not having to do something which takes a godforsaken long time, not a substitute for poor-flying skills. (which can be improved)

For you. Not for everyone.

You appear to be continuing to insist that anyone who doesn't have fun the way you prefer to have fun is doing it wrong. That is the messed-up thing here, not how somebody else might choose to play their own game.

If you want to limit your use of MJ, then fine: do so. A lot of players, myself included, prefer not to use many of MJ's features.

But nobody has any right to tell other people how they should play.

[TimePeriod]

For you. Not for everyone.

You appear to be continuing to insist that anyone who doesn't have fun the way you prefer to have fun is doing it wrong. That is the messed-up thing here, not how somebody else might choose to play their own game.

If you want to limit your use of MJ, then fine: do so. A lot of players, myself included, prefer not to use many of MJ's features.

But nobody has any right to tell other people how they should play.

All I am reading is a lone paladin on a crusade of defending the public interest, regardless how silly he makes himself look.

Sorry but, that argument is not part of this discussion it's just your own little private pathetic crusade.

Back on-topic:

Knowing how to pilot aircraft, why it behaves like it does is a lot better then having a computer do the testing for you.

[Red Iron Crown]

But how will you know how the plane handles if you have not tested the aircraft? Put it through stress tests, loops and everything in between?

Telling a program how to put an aircraft into a dangerous situation seems counter-intuitive to me.

None of those "tests" are necessary. If you like doing those things, have a great time, but don't claim they are a prerequisite to designing well or enjoying KSP.

Long duration flights yes, I agree MJ is a valid option.

Short flight around KSC No, you need to learn to do that. There is no better way to figure out how your aircraft handles then hands-on approach.

I never take short flights around KSC. What's the point? I play KSP to go to space.

MJ is an option for not having to do something which takes a godforsaken long time, not a substitute for poor-flying skills. (which can be improved)

MJ can completely replace the pilot for many craft. For people who don't enjoy piloting it's a godsend. Obviously you like the piloting aspect of KSP so it's not a good fit for you, but other players run entire space programs with MJ doing all the piloting. There are many playstyles in KSP, MJ fits into some of them better than others.

[sal_vager]

All I am reading is a lone paladin on a crusade of defending the public interest, regardless how silly he makes himself look.

Forsooth, is this a knave I see before me? A scoundrel seeking to diminish the fun of others? To dictate how fun should be had?

Suffer not the Mechjeb hating individual, for he hath no regard for you, give him not your ear or your mind.