For Questions That Don't Merit Their Own Thread

[kerbiloid]

8 hours ago, SOXBLOX said:

Hey, it's Terminator's best friend. Sarah Connor, watch out!

Spoiler

P.S.
So, while the humans are going to reload with 6.8,
https://www.sigsauer.com/blog/sig-sauer-completes-final-delivery-of-next-generation-squad-weapon-system-to-us-army
the dawgs get just 6.5. What a mess...

Edited October 14, 2021 by kerbiloid

[DDE]

35 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

P.S.
So, while the humans are going to reload with 6.8,
https://www.sigsauer.com/blog/sig-sauer-completes-final-delivery-of-next-generation-squad-weapon-system-to-us-army
the dawgs get just 6.5. What a mess...

The US seem to be giving up on having common rounds. Pretty sure SIG isn't going to deliver the SAW part of the kit because the Army wants caseless machine gun ammo.

[kerbiloid]

30 minutes ago, DDE said:

Pretty sure SIG isn't going to deliver the SAW part of the kit because the Army wants caseless machine gun ammo.

Oh, MK 2 Lancer?!

Spoiler

 

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by kerbiloid

[DDE]

4 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Oh, MK 2 Lancer?!

Kraut Space Magic 2: Belt-Fed Boogaloo

[kerbiloid]

18 minutes ago, DDE said:

Kraut Space Magic 2: Belt-Fed Boogaloo

Where is the saw?

 

A new RPG is already required.

Spoiler

 

But the trigger should be placed properly, at the front handle.

[kerbiloid]

5 hours ago, DDE said:

Pretty sure SIG isn't going to deliver the SAW part of the kit because the Army wants caseless machine gun ammo.

So, it's a choice between SIG and HK, who will provide the das Amerikarifle in addittion to die Amerikapistole (SigSauer 226) und die Amerikakanone (Rheinmetall 120 mm).

Though, warum nicht?

Edited October 14, 2021 by kerbiloid

[kerbiloid]

(I know, multiposting is bad)

https://www.rbc.ru/technology_and_media/14/10/2021/6167e9df9a7947e95c77217b

Rogozin has presented Markerobot guarding the space stuff.

Boston dogs are just trying to chase the Roscosmos success.

[magnemoe]

5 hours ago, DDE said:

The US seem to be giving up on having common rounds. Pretty sure SIG isn't going to deliver the SAW part of the kit because the Army wants caseless machine gun ammo.

Why not use it for all the guns? Cost as in replacing all the guns and ammo and retrain everybody?

Yes caseless is more fragile but think magazines are better protected than belts. 
Heat? yes the machine gun get hotter but the real problem is then the round stays in the hot chamber for an long time, on machine guns the bolt tend to lock in the back position then you stop firing. 
On normal semiauto / auto guns it will grab an new round and chamber it, this increases accuracy but if you shot a lot the round will stay in the hot chamber. 
Wonder if this problem could be solved? Many modern guns lock open if the magazine is empty, this way you can just replace the magazine and press the trigger to start firing. 

Crazy idea have an thermal rod in chamber housing and use this to trigger the hold open catch if gun get to hot  

[DDE]

15 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

Why not use it for all the guns? Cost as in replacing all the guns and ammo and retrain everybody?

Decades' worth of existing ammo stockpiles. Yeah, the costs are pretty insane.

[kerbiloid]

56 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

On normal semiauto / auto guns it will grab an new round and chamber it, this increases accuracy but if you shot a lot the round will stay in the hot chamber. 
Wonder if this problem could be solved?

Afaik they use some preloaders in the caseless guns.

41 minutes ago, DDE said:

Decades' worth of existing ammo stockpiles.

The funny side is that when all firearms will get personal biometric locks, and the obsolete guns get prohibited (this will also stop the holy war AK vs AR), all those mountains of shells will be utilized for any price.

(Together with the billion of firearms without biolocks).

So, the longer they are trying to save, the more they will have to spend.

And this will probably happen in close couple of decades, together with all primordial stuff like gas cars.

Netwok wars mean network guns, electrically assisted and not working without a fresh set of drivers.

So, a shotgun with "Powered by Starlink" label is just a near future.
Like the "Please, can you grant me a temporary permission on the gun shot?" "No, I have only four legal shots left till next month" dialog.

Obviously, this will mean the death of mechanical trigger mechanism. Only electronic ignition, like in the cars.

On the other hand, the latter means the disappearance of the fragility problem. Nothing kicks the caseless shell if it's ignited from the battery.
And the electric ignitor works only if you have logged in.

A paradise for linux fanboys.

Edited October 14, 2021 by kerbiloid

[kerbiloid]

_{(a multipost)}

Edited October 14, 2021 by kerbiloid

[DDE]

45 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

The funny side is that when all firearms will get personal biometric locks, and the obsolete guns get prohibited (this will also stop the holy war AK vs AR), all those mountains of shells will be utilized for any price.

*laughs in Tsarist-era 7.62x54*

[Terwin]

1 hour ago, magnemoe said:

Why not use it for all the guns? Cost as in replacing all the guns and ammo and retrain everybody?

One of the advantages of the brass is that it collects a lot of the heat from the charge, allowing you to eject that heat in a very dense package.

That MG has attachments for water cooling, so that helps mitigate the accumulation of all that waste heat.  I expect that a caseless MG requires a lot more cooling than one fed with cased ammo.

The brass also helps seal the barrel, so to get the same oomph from caseless ammo as you get from cased ammo, you need much tighter tolerances in the weapon, tolerances that might get loosened from repeated firings, as the firing pin and other internals are now taking the full back-blast of the round, instead of letting the case handle that.

 

There are good reasons the adoption of caseless ammo is so slow.  There are enough reasons that caseless ammo might only be deployed for special cases in the long term. 

[kerbiloid]

12 minutes ago, DDE said:

*laughs in Tsarist-era 7.62x54*

Every Tsarist-era 7.62x54 is several grams of color metals and a potential unauthorized usage.

So, the 7.62x54 will follow the XX-era cars without problems.

12 minutes ago, Terwin said:

The brass also helps seal the barrel, so to get the same oomph from caseless ammo as you get from cased ammo, you need much tighter tolerances in the weapon, tolerances that might get loosened from repeated firings, as the firing pin and other internals are now taking the full back-blast of the round, instead of letting the case handle that.

Some expendable cartridges into the barrel, to replace them every 1000 shots.

Electronic ignition, lack of mechanical parts.

[Terwin]

38 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

Some expendable cartridges into the barrel, to replace them every 1000 shots.

Electronic ignition, lack of mechanical parts.

No idea what weapon the picture was of, so after a search for a caseless belt-fed MG, I found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSAT_light_machine_gun

That weapon lists a firing rate of 650 rpm.

Assuming the weapon you are talking about is reasonably similar in rate of fire, that means you get a highly reliable weapon(few moving parts) that you must stop firing every few minutes so that you can swap out the combustion chamber.

I am hardly a gun expert, but that sounds like a very bad idea if you are in the middle of a fire-fight.

[kerbiloid]

4 minutes ago, Terwin said:

that you must stop firing every few minutes so that you can swap out the combustion chamber.

How many thousand rounds do you usually spend per minute?

(Of course, you know that a machine-gun needs a barrel replacement every 500 shots, to let it cool.)

(And that a footman carries about 1000 rounds in total).

(Also how many shots are required to make a random robber run away?)

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

2 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Wonder if this problem could be solved? Many modern guns lock open if the magazine is empty, this way you can just replace the magazine and press the trigger to start firing

A bunch of guys carrying open bolt weapons tend to be more dangerous to friendlies than the same number carrying closed bolt weapons. 

Open bolt (like most belt fed MGs) can get worn down via use and when bumped send the bolt home (spring constantly under pressure with the bolt open) without your authorization, which fires the round in whatever random direction you had the gun pointing... Including the back of your friends' leg.  Gets really exciting if it happens inside the armored troop carrier. 

Closed bolt (most assault rifles, sniper, semi auto - heck pretty much everything else) is really safe, reliable and unless the user is actively negligent - unlikely to cause friendly casualties, even when dropped. 

1 hour ago, Terwin said:

One of the advantages of the brass is that it collects a lot of the heat from the charge, allowing you to eject that heat in a very dense package

This is a really good point - but also should note that most caseless ammo has a risk of swelling (via atmospheric heat and humidity), and swollen or damaged rounds not only cause mis-feeds, but can break up and flash burn the user. 

24 minutes ago, Terwin said:

you must stop firing every few minutes so that you can swap out the combustion chamber.

I am hardly a gun expert, but that sounds like a very bad idea if you are in the middle of a fire-fight.

That's why you bring friends!

21 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

How many thousand rounds do you usually spend per minute?

(Of course, you know that a machine-gun needs a barrel replacement every 500

So - with a MG you lay down 8-12 round bursts in a controlled manner for best results... But yeah after a while you gotta change barrels - which is little slower than changing magazines. But short bursts from the prone using bipod or tripod is what professionals do.  Otherwise you are unlikely to hit the side of a barn with fully automatic weapons. 

You will note that when choosing an alternative firing posture and sustained expenditure of 100 round belts, Special Forces troops go inside the barn for increased accuracy. 

 

 

[Terwin]

 

51 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

Some expendable cartridges into the barrel, to replace them every 1000 shots.

7 minutes ago, Terwin said:

That weapon lists a firing rate of 650 rpm.

3 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

How many thousand rounds do you usually spend per minute?

As it is a LMG designed to fire over 500 rounds per minute, it would stand to reason that it is intended to be used in scenarios where  firing several hundred rounds per minute would be useful. (if you only expect to need to fire a few dozen rounds, an assault rifle is a much lighter and more portable weapon than a liquid-cooled, belt-fed LMG)

As the LMGs are belt-fed, it would make sense if they are used in scenarios where extended sustained fire is desirable(I believe that this is one of the primary benefits of using a belt-feed).

Putting those together, and it would stand to reason that these weapons(liquid-cooled LMGs) would be deployed in positions/scenarios where it is expected that firing over a thousand rounds every couple of minutes could be desirable, making the need to stop and perform maintenance every thousand rounds something of a design flaw.

It is from 2013, but this is a PDF with a lot of information about cased vs caseless ammunition(including a 'the good, the bad, and the ugly' section)

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Caseless-Ammunition-Small-Arms.pdf

including:

* No expendable cartridge case No expendable cartridge case “heat sink heat sink” (@ 10%) to eject (@ 10%) to eject from the weapon from the weapon

* 210 rounds 210 rounds – Maximum cook off rate from Maximum cook off rate from a single a single-chamber mechanism. Multiple chamber mechanism. Multiplechamber mechanism required for high chamber mechanism required for high sustained rate of fire employment (LMG sustained rate of fire employment (LMG’s, AR’s).

(I would guess that '210 rounds per chamber' is closely related to the 'expendable cartridge' mentioned above.  Looks like they made almost a 5x improvement over the last 8 years) 

[magnemoe]

15 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

A bunch of guys carrying open bolt weapons tend to be more dangerous to friendlies than the same number carrying closed bolt weapons. 

An excellent point, have heard horror stories about WW2 submachine guns, yes they had an fixed firing pin, as in it was basically an nub in the center of the bolt face, so if the bolt was released and it could be released if you bumped the gun hard it would fire. 
Modern guns will not fire until the trigger is pressed, many will also lock open then the magazine is empty, you have some nub on the side of the magazine pusher who let the gun know then magazine is empty and hold the bolt in open position.  Still more failure modes here than closed bolt. Add that accuracy will suffer because its an delay from pressing the trigger and the gun will move a bit then the bolt slams forward. 
No idea how the hold open system handle this but can think of multiple ways. 

[kerbiloid]

56 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

You will note that when choosing an alternative firing posture and sustained expenditure of 100 round belts, Special Forces troops go inside the barn for increased accuracy. 

Spoiler

 

 

54 minutes ago, Terwin said:

As it is a LMG designed to fire over 500 rounds per minute,

It's the technical rate. The practical one is several times lower, unless a cavalry is attacking you in the field. Because, as it is noticed, they shoot with bursts.

54 minutes ago, Terwin said:

Putting those together, and it would stand to reason that these weapons(liquid-cooled LMGs) would be deployed in positions/scenarios where it is expected that firing over a thousand rounds every couple of minutes could be desirable, making the need to stop and perform maintenance every thousand rounds something of a design flaw.

Every thousand rounds = every several days.

And most of gunners don't use MG, they use rifles, their rate is even lower. And a backup rifle is always in APC. 

A civilian weapon needs no long fire at all. A ten or a score of shells for both self-defence or hunting are enough. (Except for true gangstas).
So, it's possible even to make it semi-expendable, like Kodak cameras. 

Anyway, to let a human who needs a hundred of rounds go to street or to hunt is a crime itself.
First he should learn shooting in a shooting range, before spreading the bullets around and turning the forest into a dead land.

***

So.

A civilian weapon should be as "sterilized" (can't find in English) as possible, the chipped magazines, the cheap internal photocamera to shoot every shot (done in some civilian traumatic weapons), the biometric lock.
The argument of the free weapon rights is not much sigificant here, as the weapon is legal, lethal, but makes every shot documented and authorized.

"The society can defend with personal arms" and so on:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102#See_also
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Detroit_riot
Not in this tale.

A combat weapon anyway needs integration into the battlefield network, so be electronically augmented, and be not shootable by an authorized person even if stolen.
Also, a mini-camcoder is a usual pikatinni stuff, so it's also a way to shot from behind a corner and so on,

So, the electronics will possess the guns anyway, and the electric ignition is how it should lock the shots.

Edited October 14, 2021 by kerbiloid

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

13 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

pikatinni stuff

Everyone looks at the kitted out battle rifle and thinks, "COOL!!!".  

Wait until you have to carry one.*

I trained my whole career with Iron sights and can reliably hit anything within half a kilometer using a basic, slick rifle .  A simple, rugged 1x-4x can make things easier, but adding all the hookey-roo crap Rangers like to slap all over their rifles just makes them heavier without a whole lot of improvement in performance. 

 

 

*here's a challenge for anyone interested: grab a simple 10lb / 4.5 kg weight - and carry it (in your hands) everywhere you go for a full day.

Choose a day that you are not at the desk / couch, but active. 

 You may be surprised by how something so light can kick your butt after a while. 

[kerbiloid]

9 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Everyone looks at the kitted out battle rifle and thinks, "COOL!!!".  

Wait until you have to carry one.*

I trained my whole career with Iron sights and can reliably hit anything within half a kilometer using a basic, slick rifle .  A simple, rugged 1x-4x can make things easier, but adding all the hookey-roo crap Rangers like to slap all over their rifles just makes them heavier without a whole lot of improvement in performance. 

You see, how much lighter gets the rifle if throw out some of steel parts and replace it with a chip and a pair of wires?

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

7 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

You see, how much lighter gets the rifle if throw out some of steel parts and replace it with a chip and a pair of wires?

You mean replacing steel/polymer rifle with mouse next to keyboard?  Yeah that's lightweight. 

My 14 y/o tells me that he's a better infantryman than me because he's better at Tarkov than me. 

Edited October 14, 2021 by JoeSchmuckatelli

[kerbiloid]

32 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

You mean replacing steel/polymer rifle

A polymer trigger mechanics, kicking the shell?

32 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

My 14 y/o tells me that he's a better infantryman than me because he's better at Tarkov than me. 

Tarkov is not the best game, but anyway. The airmen were laughing at the drone  operators, too.

Exoskeletons.

Edited October 14, 2021 by kerbiloid

[TheSaint]

21 hours ago, SOXBLOX said:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/42717/robot-dogs-can-now-have-6-5mm-assault-rifles-mounted-on-their-backs

Hey, it's Terminator's best friend. Sarah Connor, watch out! 

I keep telling everyone to stock up on green tip.

2 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Everyone looks at the kitted out battle rifle and thinks, "COOL!!!".  

Wait until you have to carry one.*

I trained my whole career with Iron sights and can reliably hit anything within half a kilometer using a basic, slick rifle .  A simple, rugged 1x-4x can make things easier, but adding all the hookey-roo crap Rangers like to slap all over their rifles just makes them heavier without a whole lot of improvement in performance. 

 

 

*here's a challenge for anyone interested: grab a simple 10lb / 4.5 kg weight - and carry it (in your hands) everywhere you go for a full day.

Choose a day that you are not at the desk / couch, but active. 

 You may be surprised by how something so light can kick your butt after a while. 

My buddy went to a carbine training course at Gunsite Academy. One of his biggest takeaways was that every instructor there was using a pencil-barrel AR with a lightweight red dot. No government-profile barrels, no LVPOs, no ACOGs, no aluminum rails, none of that. They shaved every ounce they could off the rifle, target was the 5-pound-ish range. It's kinda making me rethink my priorities.