Remove or Fix the Stayputnik

[Alshain]

Squad, memory space is already at a premium, why gimp a part into unusability and then leave it in the game? If you don't want anyone to use the Stayputnik, then remove it all together and save everyone some memory. Without SAS, the thing is completely useless as a probe core.

[Anquietas314]

It's actually not completely useless. Hard to fly yes but not impossible. A lot of people have found it quite useful early game for things like rescuing kerbals from orbit and satellites. Sure it's not exactly ideal, but it can do it It might be worth moving all the probe cores up a level though, so stayputnik gets SAS (mainly to help new/less-than-elite players) and the highest tier probe before the inline 1.25/2.5m ones has maneuever node tracking.

[Alshain]

The question is not "Can it be done" it's "Does anyone want to?". The part will fall into obscurity and be nothing but a waste of memory space because people will likely rather just wait for the next one.

[CaptainKipard]

You waste a lot of resources trying to keep your rockets stable without SAS.

[Anquietas314]

The question is not "Can it be done" it's "Does anyone want to?".

Some people like the challenge, some of the older players have a bit of nostalgia from the time before SAS was a thing

You waste a lot of resources trying to keep your rockets stable without SAS.

Depends really on how good you are at flying, though there's definitely a significant waste (maybe 2-4ish% for even the best pilots)

[aeTIos]

I've flown a mission to Duna without SAS. It's not hard at all.

[Alshain]

Some people like the challenge, some of the older players have a bit of nostalgia from the time before SAS was a thing

If older players want nostalgia, tell them to press the "T" key, don't destroy a perfectly good part.

[Anquietas314]

I've flown a mission to Duna without SAS. It's not hard at all.

Perhaps hard is not the right word. Tedious and incredibly error-prone. How's that?

[thereaverofdarkness]

I use the Stayputnik quite a bit. On just about every game, I need a probe core before I've gotten around to unlocking anything else. Also, it's not that hard to keep it stable with a few tricks.

I love my little Stayputnik even more now that it has no SAS. It is the King Underdog probe core of underdogs. It is the Little Engine that Could. It is a spectacular little low-tech device that defies limitations and pushes envelopes. Please don't take that away from me.

Edited December 22, 2014 by thereaverofdarkness

[Wanderfound]

I just used a Stayputnik probe to do the first Mun orbit in my new career save. What would normally be a boring grindy milk-run mission for me was instead quite a lot of fun. Just whack some fins on the tail of the main booster for atmospheric stability, then rely on spin stabilisation for the transfer burn.

I've also been sending Bill and Bob up on solo flights occasionally for training purposes. SAS is nice, but it's not necessary.

The new Stayputnik is a major improvement, IMO.

[thereaverofdarkness]

then rely on spin stabilisation for the transfer burn.

I didn't even consider that. I was mostly using my own skills to stop its movement, and relying on time warp when I got lazy. I've got to try that! (And Squad needs to patch that time warp stabilization exploit!)

[Superfluous J]

I don't think the Stayputnik needs to be improved or removed. It would probably be a good idea to note in its description that it has no stabilization mechanism though.

There are dozens of parts that rarely see use, and dozens of ways to fine-tune the game and decrease the memory footprint that doesn't involve removing a part that people actually use.

The good part is, now that we're in Beta, we'll start seeing those improvements.

[Rusty6899]

If older players want nostalgia, tell them to press the "T" key, don't destroy a perfectly good part.

That's like saying. Add a gimbal to the LV-30, and if players don't like it, then lock the gimbal function.

We get it. You don't like the part. Don't pretend that you speak for the entire KSP playing community. Some people like having an early game probe, and are quite happy to pilot it without SAS until they unlock a probe that has it.

One problem that we had was that almost all probe cores were equal. This way, the functionality of the probe increases the further you get up the tech tree. If you don't like it, don't use it. But it doesn't make sense to request it be removed from the game, just because you don't like it.

[thereaverofdarkness]

Yes, sometimes enforced weaknesses are a good thing. A game that lets you legitimately magic your way to the end isn't fun, even when you select your own limitations. It's especially unfun to limit yourself when everyone else considers the lack of limitation to be an acceptable way to play.

[Bill Phil]

Maybe give it some torque. I constantly forget things like that. At least give it SOME torque... After all, the Mk1 pod has torque, so it's not like it's beyond their technology.

EDIT: How about the Stayputnik is unlocked with the Goo canisters, and a Srayputnik MkII replaced where the current Stayputnik is in the tech tree. The MkII would have SAS but no torque, or something like that.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Bill Phil

[Rusty6899]

Maybe give it some torque. I constantly forget things like that. At least give it SOME torque... After all, the Mk1 pod has torque, so it's not like it's beyond their technology.

EDIT: How about the Stayputnik is unlocked with the Goo canisters, and a Srayputnik MkII replaced where the current Stayputnik is in the tech tree. The MkII would have SAS but no torque, or something like that.

Some torque would help a bit. Although you could just choose engines that have Gimbal. I can't remember if they are in the same tech node as the first reaction wheel, but if not, they probably should be.

[Bill Phil]

Engines that gimbal only help when they're on. And wasting fuel is, sadly, not on my agenda.

LV-T 45 and LV-909 are on a tier before the Stayputnik.

[ddenis]

Squad, memory space is already at a premium, why gimp a part into unusability and then leave it in the game? If you don't want anyone to use the Stayputnik, then remove it all together and save everyone some memory. Without SAS, the thing is completely useless as a probe core.

What?! Are you joking? I don't like it - remove it... where is the sense is in this world.

Ok.

I don't like green kerbals - paint them into red.

I don't care about flags - remove them from game.

I don't use big engines - remove them from the game.

What the hell...

By the way... Capsules with 1 place don't have SAS when Scientist of Engineer controls it... I know... SQUAD, remove engineers, scientists and 1 man pods from KSP! Because they don't have SAS.

Edited December 22, 2014 by ddenis

[Bill Phil]

I just think it needs to be moved to Tier 1 or 2 on the tech tree. Plus it is called the Stayputnik. But it can't stayput!

Im not saying that a probe with no SAS shouldn't be in the game, I'm saying that probe shouldn't be the Stayputnik.

[Commander Jebidiah]

Doesn't interstellar have a part upgrade system? If so why couldn't Squad introduce that to stock so that once you get a projector with sas then it gets the ability to use it.

And in the mean time why don't you just edit the .cfg file.

[Bill Phil]

Because editing .cfg files isn't my style. I also kind of want to try it out with no SAS... It might be interesting.

[worir4]

I wish we had upgradable software that you earn through the science tree. This way you can have the aesthetics of which ever probe core you want and still have progression.

[kujuman]

I'm reminded of a tale in which there exists a fence in the middle of a road. The young men who find it tear the fence down, the old men who find it ask why the fence is there.

Point being, the stayputnik is best in class for what it's best at: Staying put (the name refers to the fact that we didn't always have probes, and disconnected parts became debris which was deleted by the game, the stayputnik wouldn't). If you think of the stayputnik as Sputnik you know what it's for, being part of a satellite, rather than being part of a rocket. For example, if you are leaving an orbital sat for science in orbit above ___ contracts and landing a small science Lander, the Lander can have SAS and just leave a cheap stayputnik in orbit. It's also great for shuttle deployed probes and sats. Saves money and saves mass

[KrazyKrl]

I think that the Stayputnick and other alternative technologies should upgrade to the features of the highest tier of its class of item.

I.e. Stayputnick without SAS, then after an R&D upgrade, it gets replaced in the VAB/SPH with Stayputnick MkII "Even more stayingput" model.

This would enable a different form factor probe core with SAS, dependent on the mission; while still being useful later. Via tweakables in the VAB/SPH, you can revert the part to the Stayputnick MkI hardware, and lose SAS.

[Guest]

Point being, the stayputnik is best in class for what it's best at: Staying put (the name refers to the fact that we didn't always have probes, and disconnected parts became debris which was deleted by the game, the stayputnik wouldn't). If you think of the stayputnik as Sputnik you know what it's for, being part of a satellite, rather than being part of a rocket. For example, if you are leaving an orbital sat for science in orbit above ___ contracts and landing a small science Lander, the Lander can have SAS and just leave a cheap stayputnik in orbit. It's also great for shuttle deployed probes and sats. Saves money and saves mass

I do that,too, but I admit it is not too usefull for anything else in the game. But if we remove all parts that have almost no use, where would we come?

Remove the Claw, it can just grap asteroid! Remove the Hex, the Quad and the Okto probecore, the flat Okto is smaller and better! Remove all engines except the Kerbodynes, bigger is better!

See the point?