[0.90] KSP Interstellar port maintance thread

[Olympic1]

@Boris

The KSP-Interstellar 0.90 port download should be updated to include the ModuleManager 2.5.8 .DLL instead of the 2.5.6 .DLL as older versions being present can create issues with the proper functioning of newer versions, and 2.5.8 is requited for some other mods. I assume KSP-Interstellar 0.90 still works correctly with MM 2.5.8 instead of 2.5.6? If not, I'm about to find out *VERY* soon, as I just installed the port (and FreeThinker's Extension Config- which I ardently suggest you integrate into the main 0.90 port version) and am about to run KSP for the first time since adding the new mods...

Regards,

Northstar

MM updated to 2.5.9 a week ago

[Northstar1989]

MM updated to 2.5.9 a week ago

Oh, well then the KSP-I 0.90 ports needs to update to 2.5.9 (and I do as well)

EDIT: Freethinker, the KSP-I 0.90 + 0.4.1 Extension Config at least loads fine for me with MM 2.5.8, RealFuels 8.3 + Stockalike Engines Config 2.0.6, Real Solar System 64K, Procedural Parts, Deadly Re-Entry, FAR, and quite a few other mods installed- so far so good...

EDIT #2: A thought that occurred to me while I was waiting for a helicopter to fly the long distance to the mountains west of the KSC for some biome science... (the KSP-I 0.90 port locked my main launch vehicle, as it relied on the HECS probe core for a Space-X style reusable launch stage, and the KSP-I 0.90 port tech tree is broken in that it utilizes the 0.25 tech tree with regards to node locations for pre-existing parts such as the probe cores: which were moved to earlier tech nodes from 0.25 to 0.90)

Could the code you utilized to allow Atmospheric Scoops just above the atmosphere operate while unloaded or in nonphysical time-warp also be utilized for Atmospheric Scoops on the ground?

I ask this because certain resources are useful to gather from the local atmosphere using Atmospheric Scoops rather than shipping from Kerbin, such as Oxidizer/LOX on Laythe, and Argon on Duna... Right now, its possible to gather them with an Atmospheric Scoop in nophysical time-warp, but (to my knowledge) it has to be the loaded vehicle for this to work correctly- which could become EXTREMELY annoying with multiple active missions at a time...

Regards,

Northstar

Edited January 26, 2015 by Northstar1989

[Gerandar]

Hello, I'm currently running into a bug with this mod anytime I try and use any Air intake the game bugs out and refuses to let me place said intake, the game then fails to read vessel info(cant launch anything tells me I have no weight or other vessel info) and then I have to reload from an older save any idea why the intakes dont work?

[ABZB]

tweakscale has issues with the air intake stuff KSPI adds. You can either go into the tweakscale MM configs and delete all the ones that add tweakscale to air intakes. This is what to do if you are running an old version. if you are running the new version from this thread, there should be a link in the opening post to a modified tweakscale that fixes the issue.

[FreeThinker]

Could the code you utilized to allow Atmospheric Scoops just above the atmosphere operate while unloaded or in nonphysical time-warp also be utilized for Atmospheric Scoops on the ground?

I ask this because certain resources are useful to gather from the local atmosphere using Atmospheric Scoops rather than shipping from Kerbin, such as Oxidizer/LOX on Laythe, and Argon on Duna... Right now, its possible to gather them with an Atmospheric Scoop in nophysical time-warp, but (to my knowledge) it has to be the loaded vehicle for this to work correctly- which could become EXTREMELY annoying with multiple active missions at a time...

Yes it could work, might be useful for collecting Argon & Hydrogen which are not very abundant in the atmosphere of Kerbin.

However in order to collect realfuels Oxigen & Hydrogen, you need to add a little MM config (because apparently NatHanKell forgot to include it in the config file )

Please add the following script (or something similar) to your RealFuel KSPI MM config file

@ATMOSPHERIC_RESOURCE_PACK_DEFINITION[InterstellarAtmosphericPack]
{

    @ATMOSPHERIC_RESOURCE_DEFINITION[KerbinOxygen]
    {
        resourceName = LqdOxygen
    }
    @ATMOSPHERIC_RESOURCE_DEFINITION[KerbinHydrogen]
    {
        resourceName = LqdHydrogen
    }
    @ATMOSPHERIC_RESOURCE_DEFINITION[JoolHydrogen]
    {
        resourceName = LqdHydrogen
    }
    @ATMOSPHERIC_RESOURCE_DEFINITION[LaytheOxygen] 
    {
        resourceName = LqdOxygen
    }
}

Edit: By the way, is anyone else with KSPI 0.90 Extended Configuration installed

getting 4 Module Manager loading Errors in KSPI_RF.cfg when loading KSP? anyone know how to get a more detailed error report?

Edit 2: I narrowed the 4 errors down to the following MM code, can anyone spot a problem?

//Specific part fixes
@PART[FNMethaneTank*]:HAS[@RESOURCE[LqdMethane]&@RESOURCE[Oxidizer]&!MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]]:NEEDS[WarpPlugin]:FOR[RealFuels]
{
    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleFuelTanks
        temp = 0
        volume = 0
        type = Cryogenic
        @temp = #$../RESOURCE[LqdMethane]/maxAmount$
        @temp *= 4.412
        @volume = #$../MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]/temp$
        @temp = #$../RESOURCE[Oxidizer]/maxAmount$
        @temp *= 5
        @volume += #$../MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]/temp$
        !temp = 0
    }
    !RESOURCE[LqdMethane] {}
    !RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
}

Inside this I found which one cause 4 error message during load:

@volume = #$../MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]/temp$ and 

@volume += #$../MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]/temp$

each cause 2 errors. Any idea how to fix this?

Edited January 26, 2015 by FreeThinker

[Northstar1989]

Yes it could work, might be useful for collecting Argon & Hydrogen which are not very abundant in the atmosphere of Kerbin.

However in order to collect realfuels Oxigen & Hydrogen, you need to add a little MM config (because apparently NatHanKell forgot to include it in the config file )

Please add the following script (or something similar) to your RealFuel KSPI MM config file

@ATMOSPHERIC_RESOURCE_PACK_DEFINITION[InterstellarAtmosphericPack]
{

    @ATMOSPHERIC_RESOURCE_DEFINITION[KerbinOxygen]
    {
        resourceName = LqdOxygen
    }
    @ATMOSPHERIC_RESOURCE_DEFINITION[KerbinHydrogen]
    {
        resourceName = LqdHydrogen
    }
    @ATMOSPHERIC_RESOURCE_DEFINITION[JoolHydrogen]
    {
        resourceName = LqdHydrogen
    }
    @ATMOSPHERIC_RESOURCE_DEFINITION[LaytheOxygen] 
    {
        resourceName = LqdOxygen
    }
}

The following code is already present- hammered out by myself and Dreadicon. There was some debate between the two of us about whether it would work, but it seemed to do the job just fine for tasks like Water Electrolysis (which produces Hydrogen and Oxygen). Does it not work for the Atmospheric Scoop?

@WARP_PLUGIN_SETTINGS[*]:NEEDS[WarpPlugin]:FOR[RealFuels]
{
	@HydrogenResourceName = LqdHydrogen //LiquidFuel
	@HydrogenPeroxideResourceName = HTP //H2Peroxide
	@AmmoniaResourceName = LqdAmmonia //Ammonia
	@OxygenResourceName = LqdOxygen //Oxidizer
}

Edit: By the way, is anyone else with KSPI 0.90 Extended Configuration installed

getting 4 Module Manager loading Errors in KSPI_RF.cfg when loading KSP? anyone know how to get a more detailed error report?

Precisely what errors are you getting? Where do they show up, and how do you know that they are occurring? I have the game open in another window right this very moment with KSP-I 0.90 port and the 0.4.1 Extended Config, and I didn't notice any issues yet. That doesn't mean there aren't any- just that I haven't found them yet...

Regards,

Northstar

[FreeThinker]

Where do they show up, and how do you know that they are occurring? I have the game open in another window right this very moment with KSP-I 0.90 port and the 0.4.1 Extended Config, and I didn't notice any issues yet. That doesn't mean there aren't any- just that I haven't found them yet...

Please re-read my post, I identified another error

- - - Updated - - -

The following code is already present- hammered out by myself and Dreadicon. There was some debate between the two of us about whether it would work, but it seemed to do the job just fine for tasks like Water Electrolysis (which produces Hydrogen and Oxygen). Does it not work for the Atmospheric Scoop?

Where?? I could only find 2 occurences of ATMOSPHERIC_RESOURCE_DEFINITION in RealFuels folder and they are both located in KSPI_RF.cfg

@ATMOSPHERIC_RESOURCE_DEFINITION
[*]:HAS[#resourceName[Ammonia]]:NEEDS[WarpPlugin]:FOR[RealFuels]
{
    @resourceName = LqdAmmonia
}
@ATMOSPHERIC_RESOURCE_DEFINITION
[*]:HAS[#resourceName[H2Peroxide]]:NEEDS[WarpPlugin]:FOR[RealFuels]
{
    @resourceName = HTP
}

I was mistaken, my mod does not seem to cause the error, it must be something else that I installed that cause this issue...

Precisely what errors are you getting?

In the log file I don't learn anything new:

Config(@PART[FNMethaneTank*]:HAS[@RESOURCE[LqdMethane]&@RESOURCE[Oxidizer]&!MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]]:NEEDS[WarpPlugin]:FOR[RealFuels])   RealFuels/KSPI_RF/@PART[FNMethaneTank*]:HAS[@RESOURCE[LqdMethane]&@RESOURCE[Oxidizer]&!MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]]:NEEDS[WarpPlugin]:FOR[RealFuels]

[ModuleManager] ModuleManager: 915 patches applied, found 4 errors
4 errors in GameData/RealFuels/KSPI_RF.cfg

Edit:

Alright, I found a sollution

Replace your "&" with ","

Apparently In 2.5.7 this was changed for fixing the science reports containing a "&"

Edited January 27, 2015 by FreeThinker

[Northstar1989]

Please re-read my post, I identified another error

I meant what specifically does the error message say, and how did you find it... You explain the error message below though, so never mind...

Where?? I could only find 2 occurences of ATMOSPHERIC_RESOURCE_DEFINITION in RealFuels folder and they are both located in KSPI_RF.cfg

The code re-named the resources instead of specifically changing the atmospheric definition. Are you able to actually scoop LOX/LH2 with RealFuels installed using an Atmospheric Scoop on the Launchpad? In orbit?

I was mistaken, my mod does not seem to have an effect, it must be something else that I installed that cause this issue...

I don't understand that statement at all... An effect on what?

In the log file I don't learn anything new:

Config(@PART[FNMethaneTank*]:HAS[@RESOURCE[LqdMethane]&@RESOURCE[Oxidizer]&!MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]]:NEEDS[WarpPlugin]:FOR[RealFuels])   RealFuels/KSPI_RF/@PART[FNMethaneTank*]:HAS[@RESOURCE[LqdMethane]&@RESOURCE[Oxidizer]&!MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]]:NEEDS[WarpPlugin]:FOR[RealFuels]

[ModuleManager] ModuleManager: 915 patches applied, found 4 errors
4 errors in GameData/RealFuels/KSPI_RF.cfg

Edit:

Alright, I found a sollution

Replace your "&" with ","

Apparently In 2.5.7 this was changed for fixing the science reports containing a "&"

So, there is a Module Manager issue with using an "&" in code now?

I'll have to look into getting this fixed... And see if the Methane Tank is still functional...

Regards,

Northstar

[Olympic1]

So, there is a Module Manager issue with using an "&" in code now?

When 0.90 came out, it broke the science reports that contains a "&" when MM was installed.

So sarbian had to add the "&" as a readable regex/char.

---

Also I updated my CTT config for KSPI

Download

Changes:

* Moved some of the radiators from 'advElectrics' to 'largeElectrics'

* Moved some of the HexCans from 'nuclearSupport' to 'nuclearFuelSystems'

[Northstar1989]

I can now confirm Atmospheric Scoop issues with Hydrogen/Oxygen and RealFuels using the current resource definitions. Thanks for catching that FreeThinker!

Regards,

Northstar

[Akira_R]

Question, what needs to be done to get a model to work with the FNRadiator module in order to get it to animate and such? Does the model need specific transform/animation names?

I ask because I am trying to make some custom animated radiator models that work with the waste heat mechanic and I can't get them to cooperate. I have had this problem in the past trying to convert the NF radiators to KSP-I radiators. Any light that can be shed on the subject is much appreciated.

Cheers

[FreeThinker]

Question, what needs to be done to get a model to work with the FNRadiator module in order to get it to animate and such? Does the model need specific transform/animation names?

I ask because I am trying to make some custom animated radiator models that work with the waste heat mechanic and I can't get them to cooperate. I have had this problem in the past trying to convert the NF radiators to KSP-I radiators. Any light that can be shed on the subject is much appreciated.

Cheers

As soon as you figure it out I want to know as well to make them work in my KSPI NF Integration Mod

[Djohaal]

Boris, I think helium boiloff from the helium cryostats is broken, it only happens if the vessel is focused.

[micheal rosen]

im havinng problems with things not upgrading. ive tested unlocking the entire tech tree but the thermal turbojets are not upgrading to hybrid thermal rockets what could be the problem?

[Jahkeb]

Oh wise and grammatically-correct code-writing type people... I appeal to your knowledge and mercy in my attempts to get this freaking thing to stop acting all kinds of stewpiiid.

I actually have just a simple question, I was wondering if there was a way to disable the old overheating warning/function, as it is giving me fits, and I already have deadly re-entry. That little red icon with the yellow-ish bar in the lower left of the screen, next to the staging components. I'm trying to use Sabre engines (with precoolers active) for SSTO's, but due to the stock overheating function the engines shut down far too early, even though the internal temps still ready 0 degrees. I was wondering if there was any kind of command line in a .config file that I could futz with?

Running ksp using the 64 bit mode because, amazingly, its far more stable for me than 32 bit.

[FreeThinker]

Boris, I think helium boiloff from the helium cryostats is broken, it only happens if the vessel is focused.

Good point, I will look into it, I have plans for extra functionality for this module anyway ...

- - - Updated - - -

I was wondering if there was any kind of command line in a .config file that I could futz with?

Not yet, but I will add it to my KSPI Extended Configuration.

[Atrius129]

im havinng problems with things not upgrading. ive tested unlocking the entire tech tree but the thermal turbojets are not upgrading to hybrid thermal rockets what could be the problem?

Those are 2 different parts, so one won't upgrade into the other.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh wise and grammatically-correct code-writing type people... I appeal to your knowledge and mercy in my attempts to get this freaking thing to stop acting all kinds of stewpiiid.

I actually have just a simple question, I was wondering if there was a way to disable the old overheating warning/function, as it is giving me fits, and I already have deadly re-entry. That little red icon with the yellow-ish bar in the lower left of the screen, next to the staging components. I'm trying to use Sabre engines (with precoolers active) for SSTO's, but due to the stock overheating function the engines shut down far too early, even though the internal temps still ready 0 degrees. I was wondering if there was any kind of command line in a .config file that I could futz with?

Running ksp using the 64 bit mode because, amazingly, its far more stable for me than 32 bit.

I don't remember 100% of the details but this was something Fractal added purposely (or was it bac9? No, they nerfed jet engine thrust). Basically, you can't run an air breathing engine in a vacuum or at reentry speeds. Moving through atmosphere at extremely high speeds, there is just too much air being slammed into the intakes for the engine to handle, causing it to explodify.

[FreeThinker]

I can now confirm Atmospheric Scoop issues with Hydrogen/Oxygen and RealFuels using the current resource definitions. Thanks for catching that FreeThinker!

I have done a pull request with fixes for RealFuels, hopefully they will be merged and released soon

[micheal rosen]

Those are 2 different parts, so one won't upgrade into the other.

no, i mean when the thermal turbojets acquired the ability of burning fuel in space, like the thermal rocket nozzles. i was correct, they are called hybrid thermal rockets when they get upgraded.

Edited January 28, 2015 by micheal rosen

[Jahkeb]

I don't remember 100% of the details but this was something Fractal added purposely (or was it bac9? No, they nerfed jet engine thrust). Basically, you can't run an air breathing engine in a vacuum or at reentry speeds. Moving through atmosphere at extremely high speeds, there is just too much air being slammed into the intakes for the engine to handle, causing it to explodify.

I believe that is what the pre-coolers where purpose built to fix. Indeed, without them, the temperature climbs to 1500 rather quickly in a SABRE-S and they do explode.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Jahkeb

[micheal rosen]

I don't remember 100% of the details but this was something Fractal added purposely (or was it bac9? No, they nerfed jet engine thrust). Basically, you can't run an air breathing engine in a vacuum or at reentry speeds. Moving through atmosphere at extremely high speeds, there is just too much air being slammed into the intakes for the engine to handle, causing it to explodify.

no, im talking about how the thermal turbojets that would be attached on the bottom of reactors, taking the heat from them, and heating up air to produce thrust, then once you unlocked basic fusion tech they would be able to do all the things the thermal rocket nozzles could do (LFO, LF, water, amonia etc...) allowing you to build extremely efficient fusion spaceplanes

[Northstar1989]

no, im talking about how the thermal turbojets that would be attached on the bottom of reactors, taking the heat from them, and heating up air to produce thrust, then once you unlocked basic fusion tech they would be able to do all the things the thermal rocket nozzles could do (LFO, LF, water, amonia etc...) allowing you to build extremely efficient fusion spaceplanes

The Hybrid Thermal Turbojets are indeed a separate part that can act as both a Thermal Turbojet and a Thermal Rocket Nozzle. If they're not showing up in your save, then it might very well be a bug that needs to be fixed by Boris, FreeThinker, or some other talented coder... First, I suggest you make sure you have access to the parts- by trying to find them in a Sandbox game. If they're usable in Sandbox, but don't show up in Career/Science games, then it's probably an issue with the tech tree unlock...

Also, FreeThinker, do you think you could create a ModuleManager patch to allow Liquid Nitrogen to be used as a fuels with Procedural Parts? It should be a cryogenic fuel much like LOX or LH2, and should be storable in any tank that can hold other cryogenic fuels...

The advantage of putting Liquid Nitrogen is Procedural Parts tanks is that I can then design the tanks to any size/shape I want- including conical fuel tanks, etc... It also provides more flexibility with my storage solutions- i.e. do I want to store it in an un-insulated/un-cooled tank, an insulated but not cooled tank, a cooled but not insulated tank, or a tank this is both insulated and cooled. Optimal solutions depend on the availability of electricity, the difficulty/expense in launching additional fuel tank mass to that location (insulation and cooling equipment are both expensive), and how long-term the storage needs to be. For instance, I might want to use an unisulated fuel tanker to ferry Liquid Nitrogen between an insulated/cooled fuel depot in a low Kerbin orbit, and one in a much higher orbit, or a Kerbin-Duna Cycler Ship with insulation and cooling onboard... (there's no point weighing down the tanker with insulation and active-cooling equipment if it's only going to be storing the Liquid Nitrogen for a very short time)

Regards,

Northstar

Edited January 29, 2015 by Northstar1989

[ABZB]

I simply added a Tank Definition for liquidnitrogen. (I use the module-managered integration of procedural parts into real/modular fuels):

I copy/pasted boil temp and loss rate from liquid oxygen, if anyone has better numbers, please let me know.

@TANK_DEFINITION[Cryogenic|BalloonCryo]:HAS[!TANK[LqdNitrogen]]
{
	TANK
	{
		name = LqdNitrogen
		mass = 0.000808
		utilization = 1
		fillable = True
		amount = 0.0
		maxAmount = 0.0
                temperature = -183
                loss_rate = 0.00000000002
                note = (has insulation)
	}
}

Edited January 29, 2015 by ABZB

[FreeThinker]

I simply added a Tank Definition for liquidnitrogen. (I use the module-managered integration of procedural parts into real/modular fuels):

I copy/pasted boil temp and loss rate from liquid oxygen, if anyone has better numbers, please let me know.

@TANK_DEFINITION[Cryogenic|BalloonCryo]:HAS[!TANK[LqdNitrogen]]
{
    TANK
    {
        name = LqdNitrogen
        mass = 0.000808
        utilization = 1
        fillable = True
        amount = 0.0
        maxAmount = 0.0
                temperature = -183
                loss_rate = 0.00000000002
                note = (has insulation)
    }
}

Thanks I will put your Tank definition ( with Boiling point set to −195.79 °C) in the next patch

[Northstar1989]

I simply added a Tank Definition for liquidnitrogen. (I use the module-managered integration of procedural parts into real/modular fuels):

I copy/pasted boil temp and loss rate from liquid oxygen, if anyone has better numbers, please let me know.

The boiling point of Nitrogen is -195.9 degrees Celcius. The boil-off rate should be somewhere intermediate between Liquid Hydrogen and Liquid Oxygen (like its boiling point), though *MUCH*, *MUCH* closer to LOX than LH2 due to its higher molecular mass- it takes more heat to raise its temperature by a degree or turn a Liter of it into a gas at the boiling point... (heats of vaporization: LOX 6.82 kJ/mol, LN2 5.56 kJ/mol, LH2 0.904 kJ/mol). Its boiling point is also much closer to LOX than LH2... (-183 for LOX vs -252.9 for LH2, and -195.9 for LN2)

- - - Updated - - -

Also, FreeThinker, I was COMPLETELY wrong about the efficiency and ISP of Nitrogen in a plasma thruster...

Some further investigation reveals that the efficiency of a plasma thruster is related to the dielectric constant of the propellant- with lower numbers being better...

The dielectric constant of Liquid Nitrogen (dielectric constants are typically measured in liquid form, but are also applicable in gas/plasma states inside a plasma thruster) is 1.43

By contrast, the dielectric constants of the other propellants that can be used in the plasma thruster part are much higher (with the sole notable exception of Lithium- which is *highly* conductive, and becomes a superconductor at extremely low temperatures or high pressures... Its efficiency in KSP-I is the highest, at 86%)

Xenon: 1.874 (69% efficient in KSP-I)

Argon: 1.504 (76% efficient in KSP-I)

Ammonia: 16.5 (54% efficient in KSP-I)

Lithium: variable, can act as a superconducter near temperatures of absolute-zero (86% efficient in KSP-I)

Hydrazine: 51-52 (dependent on temperature; 52% efficient in KSP-I)

Liquid Hydrogen: 1.01-1.26 (dependent on density; 72% efficient in KSP-I)

As you can see, with the sole exception of LH2 (which has wonky behavior in electrical thrusters as in many other systems), the efficiency of the different propellants is closely related to the dielectric constant. Liquid Nitrogen has a better dielectric constant than all the other fuels but LH2 and Lithium (and LH2 doesn't really count for, reasons...)

So, Nitrogen should actually be one of the MOST efficient fuels for a plasma thruster- I'd estimate an appropriate efficiency of around 78%

Efficiency determines waste heat production (VERY low for Nitrogen). As for the ISP- well that should be very low as well- but NOT lower than Hydrazine (which is N2H4, and thus slightly *heavier* than N2). It turns out the factors that limit its ISP in real life were specific to the Helicon Double Layer plasma thruster- and wouldn't apply to other types of plasma thrusters. Hydrazine has an ISP of 2803.25 with a KSP-I plasma thruster, so Nitrogen should have an ISP of 3090.34 (110.24% higher due to its lower molecular mass).

This is squarely in the middle of the plasma thruster propellants (some of which have significantly higher molecular mass- Xenon and Argon in particular... )

Liquid Hydrogen: 11213.00 s

Lithium: 6469.90 s

Ammonia: 3812.42 s

Hydrazine: 2803.25 s

Argon: 2491.75 s

Xenon: 1383.68

Please fix the ISP and efficiency settings as soon as possible. I apologize for giving you the wrong data- I should have looked at the way KSP-Interstellar calculated ISP and efficiency for the existing propellants, and inferred Nitrogen's likely behavior from there, rather than looking at a specific design of plasma thruster that apparently operates on very different principles... Nitrogen is definitely fair game for this class of plasma thruster though- in fact its low dielectric constant makes it BETTER than most of the other propellants already in use in KSP-I's plasma thrusters...

Regards,

Northstar

Edited January 29, 2015 by Northstar1989