[1.3.x] SETI, Unmanned before Manned [Patreon]

[RobertJPowell]

unfortunately I wiped everything. Going to fresh install everything and see if it was something I broke as after a long look at the B9 Procedural wings thread and the FAR thread, I could not see the issue I was having reported (in that designs with the COM ahead of the COL were working perfectly.) I'll get everything installed and try again later. If I still encounter issues, I'll post the design(s) here for you to look at Gustav.

For the record, I was using stock winglets and an SRB (no throttle control so that might be the root cause of the issue) as despite having unlocked the procedural LFT, the first engine for it was not until the next node. (Is that intentional Yemo?)

[SwGustav]

I've posted a few pages back about how FAR destroyed up my early probes due to lack of SAS. It's probably that (or huge TWR, or high winglet sensitivity)

Edit: Any rough ETA on 0.7.7?

Edited February 18, 2015 by SwGustav

[Yemo]

So im building up a new experience for my new play through and this time around id like to try a tech tree mod. However id like to know if my setup may conflict with SETI here. I plan on getting rid of 99% of Squads parts. And then adding Chaka Monkey/LazTek as my only major part packs. Then theres ProcParts and maybe some bits of others that are actually listed as suggestions for SETI. However Chaka and LazTek are not. What troubles would I face trying to use this tech tree with that setup?

I have no idea. I have not tested SETI without the stock parts + the mods listed under "INSTALL".

The balancing focus is the CommunityTechTree (which includes all nodes from the stock tech tree) with stock parts + anywhere from the "bold" mods to all supported mods in the OP.

As SwGustav said, progression issues are likely.

If you try it out, I would appreciate your feedback on it.

And if it does not work, maybe take a look at the other tech tree mods, which are linked at the bottom of the original post.

Whelp, there goes B9 procedural wings for me. Even though I put my COL behind my COM my rockets still flip out. I've tried everything to stabilize them from altering the ascent profile I'm using to altering the position of the 'tail fins' on the rocket. All to no avail. I give up. Whatever SQUAD did that required the developer of the B9 procedural wings to require FAR, it's ruined my enjoyment of this mod. - This makes me very sad.

(simply put, I am frustrated and annoyed with FAR. B9 procedural wings now require FAR. (That's not Ferram's fault, it's mine! I must be missing something but having read the guides and following them, I don't know what it is.)

The 2 main problems for FAR are:

1. Oversteering - adjust the control surfaces (eg 50% pitch, yaw, roll) or use smaller control surfaces

2. Bleeding of speed when you want to (without flipping over), due to lack of airbrakes and adjustable gear braking power (for the latter, there is a mod linked in the OP, TweakableWheels or so)

unfortunately I wiped everything. Going to fresh install everything and see if it was something I broke as after a long look at the B9 Procedural wings thread and the FAR thread, I could not see the issue I was having reported (in that designs with the COM ahead of the COL were working perfectly.) I'll get everything installed and try again later. If I still encounter issues, I'll post the design(s) here for you to look at Gustav.

For the record, I was using stock winglets and an SRB (no throttle control so that might be the root cause of the issue) as despite having unlocked the procedural LFT, the first engine for it was not until the next node. (Is that intentional Yemo?)

Yep, the procedural LFT is so far forward, because it is also used to store aircraft fuel for the stability unlocks.

If you use the stock winglets, make them smaller (TweakScale) and lower their response for the small rockets.

I've posted a few pages back about how FAR destroyed up my early probes due to lack of SAS. It's probably that (or huge TWR, or high winglet sensitivity)

Edit: Any rough ETA on 0.7.7?

SAS is planned to be on all probe cores from 0.7.7 onwards.

The first probe core (HECS) will get SAS through the SETI-Settings.cfg, so it can be easily turned off by players.

You can download the new config here:

SETI-Settings.cfg

I will have time to work on it tomorrow, so 0.7.7 will be released before the weekend.

There will be a lot of balancing changes, from aircraft parts to SRBs.

edit: Editor Extensions suggested in first post, thank you SwGustav.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Yemo

[SwGustav]

I will have time to work on it tomorrow, so 0.7.7 will be released before the weekend.

All aboard the hype train!

[RobertJPowell]

Good news Yemo, running with your included craft, I get a sneaking feeling that my completely covered probe was the root cause of the problem. I have a feeling that as fuel emptied that the lack of SAS plus running Mechjeb meant that the aerodynamic profile of the rocket was such that no matter where I placed the tail fins or set them, it was causing the rocket to flip out I forgot the golden rule - adjust craft designed for the souposphere of stock for FAR

[Papa_Joe]

Just a note. Ship Manifest version 0.90.0_4.1.0, with Kerbal renaming and Deployable Solar Panel management is now available.

[RobertJPowell]

Just a note. Ship Manifest version 0.90.0_4.1.0, with Kerbal renaming and Deployable Solar Panel management is now available.

You are a legend

[SwGustav]

Wanted to ask this for a while, what exactly is Kerbin Habitat? Setting up a base by the launch pad? At some distance from KSC? Or a specific biome? (like flatlands, north or south ice caps, VAB roof?)

Sorry if this has been answered somewhere, I couldn't find it

Edited February 19, 2015 by SwGustav

[Lord Aurelius]

Another mod suggestion:

WernherChecker [link]

Works somewhat Squad's proposed engineering report for 1.0, lets you know of possible issues before launch. Checks to see if you have solar panels/comms/etc and alerts you before launch if you're missing anything.

[Paradisio]

So does anyone have any tips on how to stop procedural SRBs from overheating? Perhaps I'm too used to playing stock with SRBs to be ejected after use as a first stage.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Paradisio

[SwGustav]

So does anyone have any tips on how to stop procedural SRBs from no overheating? Perhaps I'm too used to playing stock with SRBs to be ejected after use as a first stage.

I think you meant to write that without "no". Reducing thrust always helps

Yet again utility suggestion.

Edited February 19, 2015 by SwGustav

[Enceos]

Which mods do I need to install to fully populate the Community Tech Tree? I really hate spending science on empty nodes :S

[Yemo]

Good news Yemo, running with your included craft, I get a sneaking feeling that my completely covered probe was the root cause of the problem. I have a feeling that as fuel emptied that the lack of SAS plus running Mechjeb meant that the aerodynamic profile of the rocket was such that no matter where I placed the tail fins or set them, it was causing the rocket to flip out I forgot the golden rule - adjust craft designed for the souposphere of stock for FAR

Good to hear.

Thinking about a craft set for FAR/proceduralFairings only, instead or in addition to the maxMods, which requires RemoteTech.

Just a note. Ship Manifest version 0.90.0_4.1.0, with Kerbal renaming and Deployable Solar Panel management is now available.

Great news!

The Kerbal renaming will be prominent in twitch channels!

Wanted to ask this for a while, what exactly is Kerbin Habitat? Setting up a base by the launch pad? At some distance from KSC? Or a specific biome? (like flatlands, north or south ice caps, VAB roof?)

Sorry if this has been answered somewhere, I couldn't find it

The Kerbin Habitat contract is not planned out yet.

I m thinking about a test base/habitat/biosphere relatively close to the KSC, but at least 4km away from it (to be outside of physics range).

But that is probably only in the description, if people want to "cheat" and build it on the runway, they can do so (with the massive fps drop for other KSC operations).

On the other hand, if people want to build it in the mountains, desert or on the poles, they may do that as well.

Another mod suggestion:

WernherChecker [link]

Works somewhat Squad's proposed engineering report for 1.0, lets you know of possible issues before launch. Checks to see if you have solar panels/comms/etc and alerts you before launch if you're missing anything.

Included in the OP, thank you for the suggestion!

So does anyone have any tips on how to stop procedural SRBs from no overheating? Perhaps I'm too used to playing stock with SRBs to be ejected after use as a first stage.

I do not know, I only use them for first stages.

I think you meant to write that without "no". Reducing thrust always helps

Yet again utility suggestion.

Added to the OP, thank you for suggesting it!

Which mods do I need to install to fully populate the Community Tech Tree? I really hate spending science on empty nodes :S

http://fuuu.us/217.png

Except for the "heavyControl" node (which will get a part in 0.7.7), I do not know of any unpopulated (and visible) ones with only the required mods installed.

Maybe you can elaborate which nodes you mean? Or are you talking about the whole possible CTT?

[Paradisio]

I think you meant to write that without "no". Reducing thrust always helps

Yet again utility suggestion.

Thanks but yea, I'm at the point where I wonder why bother except to save on part count early on, even reducing them to 1.5 TWR (and cutting the default down significantly), they still blow up before reaching half usage as boosters.

[Lord Aurelius]

I've noticed a relationship between booster heat capacity and diameter, i.e. larger diameter boosters can support a higher thrust output without overheating. You could also try using the stand-off radial decouplers to ensure there's plenty of space between the engines, and attaching fins to the boosters; there's some weird behavior in stock regarding heat transfer, by adding more parts near where the heat is produced you can pull some of it away. One trick that I've frequently used is to put a skinny fuel tank just above a mainsail instead of connecting it directly to the main tank to prevent overheating since apparently the COM of a large tank is too far away from the engine for the game to consider it to be close enough for heat transfer so it just builds up in the engine.

[Yemo]

I've noticed a relationship between booster heat capacity and diameter, i.e. larger diameter boosters can support a higher thrust output without overheating. You could also try using the stand-off radial decouplers to ensure there's plenty of space between the engines, and attaching fins to the boosters; there's some weird behavior in stock regarding heat transfer, by adding more parts near where the heat is produced you can pull some of it away. One trick that I've frequently used is to put a skinny fuel tank just above a mainsail instead of connecting it directly to the main tank to prevent overheating since apparently the COM of a large tank is too far away from the engine for the game to consider it to be close enough for heat transfer so it just builds up in the engine.

Which reminds me, I wanted to try to implement your Hybrid Boosters with procedural SRBs.

So, a small teaser for 0.7.7:

The new Basic Jet

Flyable by everyone with FAR!

Takeoff from mud runway:

1) press T for SAS

2) press Z for max thrust

3) press SPACE for staging

4) press and hold S, it will take off when it is fast enough

Landing:

a) vertically, using the 3 radial chutes

horizontally, using brakes (can not flip over due to tricycle arrangement)

c) horizontally, using the improvised "drogue" main chute at the rear

Ceiling Height:

a) can reach 21+ km without using boosters, with the right flight path

easily reaches more by using boosters

Max Speed: 410+ m/s, about Mach 1.2 without boosters

Reconfiguration:

Can easily be turned into a prop plane

Remove radial intakes (front) and basic jet engines (rear)

Add radial prop engines (front) and structural nose cones (rear) in their places

done

[SwGustav]

Looks slick and great! I don't see antenna and instruments though, are they hidden?

[Superfluous J]

So, a small teaser for 0.7.7:

The new Basic Jet

Flyable by everyone with FAR!

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED. I crash everything.

E.V.E.R.Y.T.H.I.N.G.

[Yemo]

Looks slick and great! I don't see antenna and instruments though, are they hidden?

The new aircraft are very versatile, but that comes at the cost of a relatively high part count (Basic Jet: 28parts).

So players can pick and choose the features they need.

edit: I may add thermometer and presmat, but not an antenna, because that would depend on RT, FAR and so on.

That way I only need to maintain one design.

Dont need the boosters, since you can reach 21km with jet engines alone? Remove boosters for 4 parts.

You can reliably land horizontally? 3 radial chute parts saved.

Dont need the Mk16 rear chute for horizontal landing assistance? 1 part saved.

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED. I crash everything.

E.V.E.R.Y.T.H.I.N.G.

This one only if you point it at the ground , it is extremely stable/reliable to start, fly and land.

Here is the alternative config, just exchanging intakes and jets for props and nose cones, no other changes:

And the new Advanced Jet (27 parts):

Edited February 20, 2015 by Yemo

[Motokid600]

Im a bit confused by AutoPruner and how it interacts with this mod. Does SETI come packaged with AutoPruner itself? Is the folder "SETI-BalanceMod-AutoPruner" needed in GameData besides SETI? Or is that just to contain the SETI.prnl which AP uses to do its work?

Sorry for the bombardment of questions. Basically all I need out of AutoPruner is any part that can be replaced with procedural versions I want gone. Mainly just for B9.

Edit: Downloaded and installed AutoPruner. I see now SETI.prnl goes into the PRNLs folder that comes with AP.

Edit 2: Nevermind. All is well.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Motokid600

[SwGustav]

The advanced jet is even better... Love that tail design

Can you turn it into KAX version as well?

I noticed there is not enough Diazo's mods in suggestion list:

Auto Actions is a useful companion to Action Groups Extended, Landing Height is a tweak for easier landing.

+There's also Actions Everywhere, which is a companion too, but I have no idea how this will work with TweakableEverything and Tweakable Wheels and there will be a progression issue with fuel line. So this mod is more of a note than suggestion.

Edit: Ooh, look at this gem. Fully compatible with 0.90.

Edit2: ShowAllFuels

Edited February 20, 2015 by SwGustav

[Prismatech]

funktion the new jets with near to? sorry hate far most explosion my space ships and use not deadly.

[Yemo]

The advanced jet is even better... Love that tail design

Can you turn it into KAX version as well?

I noticed there is not enough Diazo's mods in suggestion list:

Auto Actions is a useful companion to Action Groups Extended, Landing Height is a tweak for easier landing.

+There's also Actions Everywhere, which is a companion too, but I have no idea how this will work with TweakableEverything and Tweakable Wheels and there will be a progression issue with fuel line. So this mod is more of a note than suggestion.

Edit: Ooh, look at this gem. Fully compatible with 0.90.

Edit2: ShowAllFuels

For turning a jet (pusher) into a prop (puller), the engines have to be as close to the Center of Mass as possible. So that the CoM shifts relatively little when replacing one for the other.

The Basic Jet is specifically designed for that purpose, while the Advanced Jet has the engines furthest from the CoM (but that design has other advantages).

I wanted to make an Advanced Prop as well, but the main issue is, that Kerbals are unable to climb off ladders...

The wing would have been right beside the cockpit for a good CoM-CoL relation, blocking the "Cockpit exit path". I tried to put the ladder on the wing, but to no avail, Kerbals cant get on again...

Auto Actions and Landing Height sound great, I will include them in the OP. For the others, I have to check, but wont have time for that until next week.

- - - Updated - - -

funktion the new jets with near to? sorry hate far most explosion my space ships and use not deadly.

As far as I know, everything that flies in FAR, flies in NEAR and stock too (though stock has a thicker atmosphere, so the craft will have different performances).

- - - Updated - - -

I only have to test some stuff and then 0.7.7 is ready for release within the next hours.

[Yemo]

I have encountered some issues, which I need to fix before publishing.

Also, looking at the length of the accumulated changelog, I will release the update as version 0.8.0, instead of 0.7.7.

No new mod supports, but a massive amount of rebalances...

Edited February 20, 2015 by Yemo

[SwGustav]

What a pity. HOpefully you won't encounter more issues

So can we expect a giant amount of mod supports for the next version? Will it be numbered 0.8.5?