[1.3.x] SETI, Unmanned before Manned [Patreon]

[Yemo]

15 hours ago, Antonio432 said:

SETI Contracts seem to disappear completely for me. I only get the stock repeating contracts and contracts from mods, but after I finished "Manned Orbit and Safe return " contract, I didn't receive any new progress contracts. I use KCT so do they expire or something ? Here is my KSP.log: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8o3_OKhDQ4aN2dseVpNaUNmZlU/view?usp=sharing

And here is my output_log.txt: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8o3_OKhDQ4aNlFQTUJIeGUyUjg/view?usp=sharing

I don0t have any other progress contract mods installed.

I m pretty sure that is a result of how squad handles contracts.

There is a number of "slots", depending on reputation and so on. Eg you have 5 slots for 2 star contracts. To get a new contract, you have to decline/complete an existing 2 star contract. Sometimes it reshuffles the ratio a bit when you decline other contracts.

Essentially to get a specific SETIcontract, you might have to decline/complete other 2/3 star contracts to free up slots.

Nothing I can do about it as far as I know, just how squad contract system works.

 

edit: About real fuels: Most people who use real fules go for realism overhaul anyway (and thus RP-0). Therefore real fules support is not planned for SETI, I just lack the time to maintain it. My recommendation is, to just remove the size constraints for all tanks and roleplay that restriction based on the unlocking of stock parts.

 

 

@MatBailie: Well, exactly what @kcs123 said: Do not mix older ksp versions with newer mod versions. However none of the mods within this thread had changes which would make them incompatible between ksp 1.1.x and 1.0.x (but they adjusted to new versions of eg custom barn kit and so on).

It might just be one of the many ksp 1.1.2 bugs. Or an issue from somewhere else.

Unfortunately due to time contraints, I can realistically only support the newest ksp versions (and a more common mod install method), especially when the last ksp version was not exactly stable itself.

Some observations: The 2km threshold sounds like you entered physics range. Oh, and I thought kerbals are now inside crew parts for rescue missions?

Edited July 4, 2016 by Yemo

[Ant432]

3 hours ago, Yemo said:

I m pretty sure that is a result of how squad handles contracts.

There is a number of "slots", depending on reputation and so on. Eg you have 5 slots for 2 star contracts. To get a new contract, you have to decline/complete an existing 2 star contract. Sometimes it reshuffles the ratio a bit when you decline other contracts.

Essentially to get a specific SETIcontract, you might have to decline/complete other 2/3 star contracts to free up slots.

Nothing I can do about it as far as I know, just how squad contract system works.

 

edit: About real fuels: Most people who use real fules go for realism overhaul anyway (and thus RP-0). Therefore real fules support is not planned for SETI, I just lack the time to maintain it. My recommendation is, to just remove the size constraints for all tanks and roleplay that restriction based on the unlocking of stock parts.

 

 

@MatBailie: Well, exactly what @kcs123 said: Do not mix older ksp versions with newer mod versions. However none of the mods within this thread had changes which would make them incompatible between ksp 1.1.x and 1.0.x (but they adjusted to new versions of eg custom barn kit and so on).

It might just be one of the many ksp 1.1.2 bugs. Or an issue from somewhere else.

Unfortunately due to time contraints, I can realistically only support the newest ksp versions (and a more common mod install method), especially when the last ksp version was not exactly stable itself.

Some observations: The 2km threshold sounds like you entered physics range. Oh, and I thought kerbals are now inside crew parts for rescue missions?

Oh, so should I delete the mods that add more contracts and flter contracts I never do with Contract Configurator so that i get more slots free for SETI contracts ? After I made a polar orbit around the Mun, since I accepted a "Do a Low resolution scan of the mun" contract and finished it the "Minmus and Kerbol" contract appeared. I'll just have to deal with it. If it gets too problematic I'll download Science Funding and do what I want just with funds/science restrictions, since I'll get enough money and rep .

Concerning my Real Fuels issue, can youa tleast explain me can I redirect the config to chaneg the RF Tank instead or alongside the normal liquid Tank. I figured if I can make it interact with RF Procedural tanks they should have the same limitations as the normal  Procedural Liquid Tanks. I'll change the "Procedural tank liquid" to "procedural tank rf" in the config and see what happens.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Antonio432

[Yemo]

14 minutes ago, Antonio432 said:

Oh, so should I delete the mods that add more contracts and flter contracts I never do with Contract Configurator so that i get more slots free for SETI contracts ? After I made a polar orbit around the Mun, since I accepted a "Do a Low resolution scan of the mun" contract and finished it the "Minmus and Kerbol" contract appeared. I'll just have to deal with it. If it gets too problematic I'll download Science Funding and do what I want just with funds/science restrictions, since I'll get enough money and rep .

Concerning my Real Fuels issue, can youa tleast explain me can I redirect the config to chaneg the RF Tank instead or alongside the normal liquid Tank. I figured if I can make it interact with RF Procedural tanks they should have the same limitations as the normal  Procedural Liquid Tanks. I'll change the "Procedural tank liquid" to "procedural tank rf" in the config and see what happens.

Deleting contract mods will not solve this (might just change the probabilities). The only thing you can do is, to check the SETIcontracts image in the OP and if fulfill the requirements but do not have the contract showing up, then decline an offered 2/3 star contract. Just the way ksp works.

 

About real fuels procedural parts: Hm, you could indeed just copy the SETI config from the normal liquid fuel tank and replace the @PART[proceduralTankLiquid] with @PART[proceduralTankRealFuels] for the real fuel tanks. I ll consider it again once I start working on the redevelopment of SETIctt.

[Ant432]

2 hours ago, Yemo said:

Deleting contract mods will not solve this (might just change the probabilities). The only thing you can do is, to check the SETIcontracts image in the OP and if fulfill the requirements but do not have the contract showing up, then decline an offered 2/3 star contract. Just the way ksp works.

 

About real fuels procedural parts: Hm, you could indeed just copy the SETI config from the normal liquid fuel tank and replace the @PART[proceduralTankLiquid] with @PART[proceduralTankRealFuels] for the real fuel tanks. I ll consider it again once I start working on the redevelopment of SETIctt.

Ok, I was just confused with the contract thing.

However, when i replaced "procedural tank liquid" with "Procedural tank real fuels" in the config it worked perfetly. I had to do it with the SRB too. 

[baldamundo]

What's the status of MechJeb in the latest version of SETI Community Tech Tree? I seem to have MechJeb installed on all command pods in my career mode game and I can't for the life of me figure out which mod is doing it

[Yemo]

12 minutes ago, baldamundo said:

What's the status of MechJeb in the latest version of SETI Community Tech Tree? I seem to have MechJeb installed on all command pods in my career mode game and I can't for the life of me figure out which mod is doing it

SETIrebalance does that.

[baldamundo]

Oh. I'd thought in an earlier version the autopilot functions were spread out across the tech-tree?

[Ant432]

You replied to me once hat kerbal engineer is enabled on all vessels even without the parts, but I don't have it for some reason, the button that says "KER" is blacked out and can't interact with it.

[Yemo]

10 hours ago, baldamundo said:

Oh. I'd thought in an earlier version the autopilot functions were spread out across the tech-tree?

SETIctt might change the unlocks by tech (not sure at the moment). SETIrebalance adds the mech jeb module to command pods.

46 minutes ago, Antonio432 said:

You replied to me once hat kerbal engineer is enabled on all vessels even without the parts, but I don't have it for some reason, the button that says "KER" is blacked out and can't interact with it.

SETIrebalance added the KER module to all command pods as well. But perhaps KER changed in the meantime. I recommend going to VAB/KER settings and set it to partless instead of career.

[CoriW]

Sorry if I'm missing something here, but after reading over the recent discussion about Real Fuels I have a question.. Will Seti CommunityTechTree work with Real Fuels if I'm not using procedural parts? Currently I'm playing a save that aims to be high in realism, minus the actual real solar system part. I'm using SSRSS instead, so I've found that I don't really need procedural parts.

[Yemo]

56 minutes ago, CoriW said:

Sorry if I'm missing something here, but after reading over the recent discussion about Real Fuels I have a question.. Will Seti CommunityTechTree work with Real Fuels if I'm not using procedural parts? Currently I'm playing a save that aims to be high in realism, minus the actual real solar system part. I'm using SSRSS instead, so I've found that I don't really need procedural parts.

Should work fine, discussion was only about procedural parts.

[kcs123]

@Yemo, you wanted to alert you if someone notice on twich playtrough with SETI UBM.
I just noticed TheReadPanda on twitch installed SETI contracts and probably some other SETI related mods too.

I have not time to watch whole thing when he start to actualy play game, hopefully it will be recorded on his twich somewhere.

[Yemo]

Unmanned before Manned v1.0.9.2 (for KSP 1.1.x)

Additional Mod Support

• CryoEngines
• NearFuture

 

I m currently migrating the metadata for the ckan installs, when that is done I will be able to do a minor update for SETIrebalance as well.

[theonegalen]

@Yemo, I made a couple of cfgs to integrate Airplane Plus, KAX, and the SXT Planes and Props pack into UBM. They also move the SQUAD jet engines further back in the techtree if APP or KAX are installed.

Only thing is, that the APP cfg currently includes new propeller tech nodes coming off of the the Engineering 101 node - Propeller Engines, Improved Propeller Engines, and Advanced Propeller Engines. The SXT .cfg adds additional nodes coming from start - Gliders, followed by Basic Aviation - and a single node off of Advanced Propeller Engines, Mature Propeller Engines, only if APP is also installed. 

All of this is intended to work with @inigma's Giving Aircraft a Purpose contract pack, as well. Would you be interested in those configs, or is that outside the purview of Unmanned Before Manned as you see it?

Edited July 6, 2016 by theonegalen

[kcs123]

Sounds like it will better fit full SETIctt, but since that one is on hiatus, it can come along with UBM. Although, creating new tech tree nodes and such might be out of scope for UBM, you will soon end up with new version of SETIctt

[Tyko]

Thanks for all the great work! UbM is a key part of my current Career game and I love it

[Yemo]

2 hours ago, theonegalen said:

@Yemo, I made a couple of cfgs to integrate Airplane Plus, KAX, and the SXT Planes and Props pack into UBM. They also move the SQUAD jet engines further back in the techtree if APP or KAX are installed.

Only thing is, that the APP cfg currently includes new propeller tech nodes coming off of the the Engineering 101 node - Propeller Engines, Improved Propeller Engines, and Advanced Propeller Engines. The SXT .cfg adds additional nodes coming from start - Gliders, followed by Basic Aviation - and a single node off of Advanced Propeller Engines, Mature Propeller Engines, only if APP is also installed. 

All of this is intended to work with @inigma's Giving Aircraft a Purpose contract pack, as well. Would you be interested in those configs, or is that outside the purview of Unmanned Before Manned as you see it?

 

2 hours ago, kcs123 said:

Sounds like it will better fit full SETIctt, but since that one is on hiatus, it can come along with UBM. Although, creating new tech tree nodes and such might be out of scope for UBM, you will soon end up with new version of SETIctt

Yeah, I really have to restrain myself to not make UbM going closer towards SETIctt and keep it as stock alike as possible, only using extra nodes for serious clutter parts, like girders, wings and TAC clutter. I ll be grateful to work with those configs once SETIctt is picked up again, when we see what changes in 1.2 and the base is a bit more stable to undertake a massive rewrite.

Apropos SETIctt, I might give the old one a farewell by including the ScienceJr and Goo shift from current UbM...

For UbM I m aiming to support MOLE and Dr. Jet's ChopShop, in support of @TheReadPanda who has those in the mod pack he uses with UbM at the moment as @kcs123 noted above: TheReadPanda - twitch stream

 

 

AylwickUK is doing a SETI/UbM playthrough as well:
www.twitch.tv/Aylwick

Bloody h*ll, how to configure that link window thing??

 

 

And @gamerscircle is streaming SETI/UbM on twitch, though he continued and existing game, thus no early game UbM:

GamersCircle - twitch stream

 

2 hours ago, tjt said:

Thanks for all the great work! UbM is a key part of my current Career game and I love it

You are welcome!

Edited July 6, 2016 by Yemo

[theonegalen]

Just now, Yemo said:

Yeah, I really have to restrain myself to not make UbM going closer towards SETIctt and keep it as stock alike as possible, only using extra nodes for serious clutter parts, like girders, wings and TAC clutter. I ll be grateful to work with those configs once SETIctt is picked up again, when we see what changes in 1.2 and the base is a bit more stable to undertake a massive rewrite.

Sounds great! I'll definitely toss them to you once you start working on SETIctt again.

I have a lot of "homebrewed" mod integrations to UbM (+CTT), but a lot of them also depend on my personal rebalances of quite a few different mods. I had to rebalance some parts to get SXT and APP propellers to work nicely together, especially - they use very different atmCurve values, which leads to widely varying performance.

[Yemo]

1 hour ago, theonegalen said:

Sounds great! I'll definitely toss them to you once you start working on SETIctt again.

I have a lot of "homebrewed" mod integrations to UbM (+CTT), but a lot of them also depend on my personal rebalances of quite a few different mods. I had to rebalance some parts to get SXT and APP propellers to work nicely together, especially - they use very different atmCurve values, which leads to widely varying performance.

Yeah, UbM needs some more mod support, and SXT is so large that it is really hard to sit down and work on that.

 

The long overdue update of SETIrebalance, now step-by-step as announced a few days ago.

ReactionWheel rebalance is now opt-out, materials bay and mystery goo collectibility is separate, so that it can be used with Unmanned Before Manned as well.

 

SETI Rebalance v0.9.7.0 (for KSP 1.1.x )

ReactionWheel rebalance opt-out

• New (empty) folder SETIrebalanceReactionWheels in GameData
• If folder is detected in GameData, reaction wheels are rebalanced (nerfed)
• If folder is not found, the reaction wheel rebalancing does not occur

MysteryGoo and MaterialsBay collectibility externalized

• New separate mini mod "SETIrebalanceMaterialsGoo available
• Thus it can be used with UnmannedBeforeManned
• Should reduce the in-thread questions from people who do not read mod descriptions/warnings in red

Added Mod Support

• Near Future Spacecraft

 

SETI RebalanceMaterialsGoo v1.0.9.0 (for KSP 1.1.x)

Makes materials bay and mystery goo not collectable

• They can still be reset by scientists

• Best used in conjunction with mods fixing science rewards (100% when returned, eg SETIrebalance)

Intended progression:

1. Transmit once for low value or return for full value

2. With scientist, you can reset and thus transmit multiple times

3. With Station Science Cyclotron part you can transmit for full value and thus science hop

Edited July 6, 2016 by Yemo

[TheReadPanda]

@Yemo One thing I'd like to see and I guess this falls under pathfinder rather than MOLE but is from the same mod author, is the buffalo rover parts moved around a bit, in particular the rover wheels. I do like the idea of having a 'wheel' before interplanetary travel!

Right now the buffalo rover parts are rather deep in some places and not so much in others. I realize that unmanned before manned means we should have unmanned rovers before manned rovers, or so I kind of extrapolated to, but wheels are key. And the starting wheels are kinda sad as I found out, now with some kind of lip around the KSC at least in my early game... it makes it hard to science gather around the space center.

[kcs123]

Have yet to try those mods to have better opinion on topic, but despite I proposed some kind of wheels earlier in tech tree long time ago, you should be careful on this topc. Very early rovers should have capabilities to just drive around KSC, lap of two, just enough for new players to get sense how science gathering mechanic work in game. Without having strong capabilities as primary science gathering, it still should be rocket science game, not some kind of rally game

Besides that, since it is not possible from some KSP game version to put flag on the ground until you upgrade facilities, early rover can serve purpose as navigation marker, to know where KSC is from space, or for marking down runway, to use rover as nav points for better aligment with runway from larger distance.

Those small wheels ffrom stock game serve their purpose for that part well enough. Better rover wheels, stock or from other mod, should not be earlier than 90 point science nod. At least some effort should be done before those become available. Pretty much 90 point node become available after first orbit around Kerbin and Mun. At that point it is up to player what node he would unlock, to progress career further, with some early rovers or some kind of small probes for interplanetary travels.

---------------

Speaking of very early interplanetary probes for early game, combined with RT, I don't know if it is feasible enough without nuke engine. And that become quite late in tech tree. Sure, you can send some low weight probe out there, but what is a purpose for it if you can't transmit science data back to Kerbin ?
For transmiting data back to Kerbin you need at least 1t dish antenna from RT mod. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, might be that I miscalculated ranges.

So, you need to assembly quite heavy first probe that have large dish on it, solar panels and very basic light weight science stuff on it. To get on the Moho, Duna or Eve (one of the first feasible transfer window available in game) you will need at least ~6000 dV from LKO to get there and establish orbit, not just fly by.
You also probably need a bit more dV than transfer window planer tell you what is needed to compensate for error in wrong maneuvers.

Early in game, you probably not have enough money for better than level 2 VAB/launchpad. Therefore, you can't launch interplanetary probe at once from the ground. You pretty much need to assembly probe in LKO. First launch probe with essential parts, probe core, antenna, small sci parts and dock port.
In second launch, you need another probe core, some RCS for randevouz maneuver, engine and at least one dock port to connect with first part of interplanetary probe. For engine, it have to be one with highest vacuum ISP: terrier, poodle or atlas. Even with those, it is not ease to create interplaneta5ry probe that have more than 5000 dV. For more, you need to have another engine stage, again with probe, RCS and dock ports, but with another problem, you need to mount that radialy somehow on the first two stages of interplanetary probe.

I still testing this on 1.1.2. career that started before sci parts reshuffle, but with help of strategia and DMagics sci parts I got enough science points to unlock enough tech tree nodes to reach nuclear engine. Not too much science grinding on the way up, though. Few probes around Kerbin with RT dishes on it for comm relay station, one RT comm satellite in polar orbit around Mun and Minimus, one in equatorial orbit around Mun, 3 RT landers on Mun that was part of strategia Mun unmaned program and just landed RT probe on polar cap of Minimus.

There was few orbital flights around Kerbin to earn some money from contracts and I did only one field research contract in Kerbin atmosphere that is worth to mention. Pretty much I reached gameplay stage where I should start to send interplanetary probes and build first space stations inside of Kerbin SOI.

Point is, that very early interplanetary probes is only feasible with stock comm system. With RT combined, it is not that easy. If you get with maned interplanetary crafts early on, combined with some life support mod system, you come along with another set of issues that you need to solve.

Have yet to try everything in 1.1.3. career with latest changes to give more apropriate feedback.

[Yemo]

5 hours ago, TheReadPanda said:

@Yemo One thing I'd like to see and I guess this falls under pathfinder rather than MOLE but is from the same mod author, is the buffalo rover parts moved around a bit, in particular the rover wheels. I do like the idea of having a 'wheel' before interplanetary travel!

Right now the buffalo rover parts are rather deep in some places and not so much in others. I realize that unmanned before manned means we should have unmanned rovers before manned rovers, or so I kind of extrapolated to, but wheels are key. And the starting wheels are kinda sad as I found out, now with some kind of lip around the KSC at least in my early game... it makes it hard to science gather around the space center.

I moved the stock standard rover wheels to engineering101, to have comparable capabilities in that regard, independent of installed mods.

Also I very much recommend taking a look at SETIrebalance, since you tossed out Bluedog Design. Especially the rebalancing of masses gives it a more coherent feel (eg Mk1-2 pod 2.55 tons dry instead of 4 tons and so on). The ScienceJr becomes probe size and so on... And with the recent version, you can opt-out from the reaction wheel rebalancing by simply not installing the empty folder called SETIrebalanceReactionWheels.

Of course not all mod reaction wheels are nerfed appropriately so far. So eg the MOLE command pods are fine, since they are so heavy, but eg MOLE also adds a reaction wheel with 100kg mass and 30 torque, which is extremely overpowered for SETIrebalance. So a bit of roleplay/houserules is still necessary in that regard.

I ll keep the buffalo in mind for the next bigger update.

 

@kcs123 Yeah, I thought so as well. But I have seen so many people using a jet without wings as a rover (available at stability for 8 science, which is easily gathered with the mini rover wheels), that I actually would prefer real rover wheels.

The KSC biomes are a special roleplay choice and the difference between mini rover wheels/jet without wings and proper rover wheels is so small.

I ll give a more detailed reply to the second part later, as that is very important to balancing.

 

Unmanned before Manned v1.0.9.3 (for KSP 1.1.x)

Adjustments

• Standard rover wheels earlier at engineering101
• KW Rocketry Maverick-1D earlier again at advRocketry

Initial Mod Support

• Dr. Jet's ChopShop
• MOLE

Edited July 7, 2016 by Yemo

[kcs123]

32 minutes ago, Yemo said:

The KSC biomes are a special roleplay choice and the difference between mini rover wheels/jet without wings and proper rover wheels is so small.

There is no big difference for rover around KSC, but might be too powerfull to go a bit further on Kerbin surface with it. But, on the other hand, that might be too boring to do in early career for science grinding and rover might not be a thing to use on Mun or Minimus in early career, you will unlock other stuff too quickly, before even try to build Mun or Minimus rover.

Forgot to mention, it was painfull to watch @TheReadPanda to do manual install of those mods and troubleshoot mod conflicts. Even gamers that are familiar how mods work in KSP and know how to do it manualy can make mistake and easy install older dependency mod packed along with primary mod that wish to install. Experienced user might quickly figure out that something is odd and where he made a mistake, but other users might not be of such luck and will bloat various mod threads with false bug reports.

A lot better communication is needed between moders, users and CKAN staff, to make CKAN more reliable install manager, hopefully latest events going in that direction.

[Yemo]

@kcs123

Well, the main issue would indeed be the remote tech dish.

But with SETIrebalance the KR-14 only has a mass of 200kg. And I made a pull requests for the SETIrebalance mass changes to be implemented in stock RemoteTech (already merged and got the 1.7.2 milestone flag).

That is my simple Eve atmo-dipping vessel for 106 science (only the basicScience node from the 45 science level), 45 parts, 54 tons, 7200 m/s dV (no aero capture, and easily able to do Duna as well). So you should be able to get science high space, low space and high flying by just going a few hundred meter into the atmosphere. It only has thermometer and barometer, but adding a magnetometer and a countermass should not take much dV off it. And with the Duna and Eve multipliers as well as the contract payouts, it should be very funds and science efficient.

edit: Even with 1 ton KR-14 it would be possible with the same building and science unlocks, even when simply adding a fuel tank to the center and adding 4 BACC, it comes down to around 90 tons and 7100 dV.

 

@kcs123, @politasAnd yeah, the non-ckan install method is painful. And prone to forgetting non-bundled dependencies or installing the wrong folders by accident and so on. Unfortunately some modders decided to pull their mods from ckan. While ckan sometimes messes up, most install issues are due to modders changing folders/filenames while ckan does not properly delete the mod before installing a new version. So it is kind of shared blame in most instances. Had to learn that the hard way as well. CKAN should just delete the old folder before updating a mod and probably at least 90% of the install issues would be solved.

The argument is, that it does not want to delete manual changes to those files. But some mods create files in their folder on first start, so ckan thinks that there is a manual file in there and leaves the folder upon uninstalling. Which then may trigger module manager statements based on the existence of that folder, and thus you have the starting point for a spiral of issues. Imho deleting folders by ckan is the much smaller evil.

 

Edited July 8, 2016 by Yemo

[politas]

1 hour ago, Yemo said:

 

@kcs123, @politasAnd yeah, the non-ckan install method is painful. And prone to forgetting non-bundled dependencies or installing the wrong folders by accident and so on. Unfortunately some modders decided to pull their mods from ckan. While ckan sometimes messes up, most install issues are due to modders changing folders/filenames while ckan does not properly delete the mod before installing a new version. So it is kind of shared blame in most instances. Had to learn that the hard way as well. CKAN should just delete the old folder before updating a mod and probably at least 90% of the install issues would be solved.

The argument is, that it does not want to delete manual changes to those files. But some mods create files in their folder on first start, so ckan thinks that there is a manual file in there and leaves the folder upon uninstalling. Which then may trigger module manager statements based on the existence of that folder, and thus you have the starting point for a spiral of issues. Imho deleting folders by ckan is the much smaller evil.

 

There is also the case of mods installing files into the same folder used by other mods (eg contracts for Contract Configurator, textures for TextureReplacer), so deleting the folder would break something else. There is no simple solution.