[1.12.x] B.Dynamics - Retracting/vectoring engines, Critter Crawler

[linuxgurugamer]

Looking at this, FYI, the output__log.txt is not used in 1.8 and new versions of the game

[linuxgurugamer]

Most likely you didn't install the dependencies:

• BahamutoD Animation Modules v 0.6.5.9
• KSP Wheel v 0.16.14.33

and for safety:

• ZeroMiniAVC

I just installed this in a clean 1.9 install with CKAN, and it works perfectly well, there were 32 other viewers who saw it as well (I did this on stream).

I see from the log file that you have one or more copies of MiniAVC installed (it comes with many mods), you need to remove them as it is seriously broken in 1.8 and 1.9.  Use the ZeroMiniAVC mod to do that for you automatically

 

Your log file is full of exceptions related to out-of-date DLLs, among other things.  You need to fix those.

[linuxgurugamer]

12 hours ago, reschke said:

@linuxgurugamer

I tried loading this mod into 1.9.x today in KSP and its been sitting on this screen for the last 25 minutes. I'll be glad to post a log file for this instance here in a few minutes also.
https://gyazo.com/afeb40d00fd5ed429f2964281ffa605c

 

Player Log file

See the previous two posts (I forgot to tag you)

[reschke]

1 hour ago, linuxgurugamer said:

See the previous two posts (I forgot to tag you)

No problem at all on missing the tag.

I am working through the out of date DLL files and trying to wrap those all up. I honestly can't remember if I had those other mods installed but you are likely correct. Thanks for taking a look at the info and giving me some more busy work....

[Krzeszny]

Why do the ILX-40 Retractable Engine and the VTx-202 Retractable Engine have 370 ISP in vacuum and 320 ISP at sea level, running on LFO?

I'm not sure if I should exploit that or remove them from my parts.

[linuxgurugamer]

10 minutes ago, Krzeszny said:

Why do the ILX-40 Retractable Engine and the VTx-202 Retractable Engine have 370 ISP in vacuum and 320 ISP at sea level, running on LFO?

I'm not sure if I should exploit that or remove them from my parts.

What do you find wrong?

[Krzeszny]

17 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

What do you find wrong?

320 ASL - 370 Vac. ISP on a smallish radial liquid fuel engine - OP and also Impossibru. I'm not sure what the author's intention was. Wouldn't you agree that it doesn't make sense?

I'm not asking you to tell me to modify the config, I'm just pointing out what seems wrong. Also, I don't know how high those values should be to be balanced.

By the way, even the ReStock+ authors didn't dare to create an engine above 355 Vac. ISP (that's a 4-nozzle Corgi with only 95 ASL to compensate for 355 in vacuum).

Edited May 4, 2020 by Krzeszny
moar edits

[linuxgurugamer]

15 minutes ago, Krzeszny said:

320 ASL - 370 Vac. ISP on a smallish radial liquid fuel engine - OP and also Impossibru. I'm not sure what the author's intention was. Wouldn't you agree that it doesn't make sense?

I'm not asking you to tell me to modify the config, I'm just pointing out what seems wrong. Also, I don't know how high those values should be to be balanced.

By the way, even the ReStock+ authors didn't dare to create an engine above 355 Vac. ISP (that's a 4-nozzle Corgi with only 95 ASL to compensate for 355 in vacuum).

Goid point, I'll discuss with some people and adjust 

[Krzeszny]

19 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Goid point, I'll discuss with some people and adjust 

Thanks. I'm actually surprised you agreed with me.

I might be nit-picking, but the TRR-1 radial engine (the third LFO engine in this mod) could have its ISP checked, too. 325 seems a bit much for a radial engine if you compare it to stock ones, but least it's physically possible, so it's not bad by any means.

Moreover, its size doesn't suggest 40 kN of thrust. It looks like 2 Spiders. I'm not saying it should have 4 kN (it weighs 10 times as much as a Spider, so it would have to be lighter) but... it really looks like something below 20 kN, just visually. The thrust on the other engines at least makes sense. The only way I could imagine it having 40 kN was if it were an SRB. Its nozzles are conical, not bell-shaped, after all.

[linuxgurugamer]

5 hours ago, Krzeszny said:

Thanks. I'm actually surprised you agreed with me.

I might be nit-picking, but the TRR-1 radial engine (the third LFO engine in this mod) could have its ISP checked, too. 325 seems a bit much for a radial engine if you compare it to stock ones, but least it's physically possible, so it's not bad by any means.

Moreover, its size doesn't suggest 40 kN of thrust. It looks like 2 Spiders. I'm not saying it should have 4 kN (it weighs 10 times as much as a Spider, so it would have to be lighter) but... it really looks like something below 20 kN, just visually. The thrust on the other engines at least makes sense. The only way I could imagine it having 40 kN was if it were an SRB. Its nozzles are conical, not bell-shaped, after all.

Sounds like they all need a revisit.  This was an old mod, back when there weren't any standards.  Give me a few days to get some time and I'll go over all the engines

[linuxgurugamer]

I've been looking at the engines in this mod.  First off, I think the XJ-48 Vector and the MJ-88 Mini Vector are reasonably balanced for their size.  The Mini may be a bit overpowered, but I think it should stay unchanged.

The engines, on the other hand, need some serious rework.

Name	ISP-ASL	ISP-Vac	Thrust-ASL	Thrust-Vac	a	Stock Equiv	ISP-ASL	ISP-Vac	Thrust-ASL	Thrust-Vac	Proposed	x
												ISP-ASL	ISP-Vac	Thrust-ASL	Thrust-Vac	Notes
CritterCrawler	250	300	25	30		Spark	265	320	16.6	20		260	290	8	10	1
						24-77 Twitch	275	290	15.2	16
						LV-1R Spider	260	290	1.8	2
TRR-1	235	325	29	40		Same as CritterCrawler						260	290	8	10	1
VTx-202	320	370	99.5	115		Mk-55 Thud	275	305	108	120		275	305	216	240	2
ILX-40 Retract	320	370	73.5	85		Mk-55 Thud	275	305	108	120		280	315	110	135	3

Notes:

1. The CritterCrawler seems to have the same engine as the TRR-1, so their values are the same
2. The VTX-202 has two nozzles, each looks equivalent to the Thud, so it's double the Thud in thrust
3. Very similar to the Thud in size

Comments on this, please.

 

[Krzeszny]

1. CritterCrawler/TRR-1, the double-Spider engine. Fair enough.

2. VTx-202, the flat brick engine - think first, then read my propositions: 

• We should consider what its use should be. Why would someone want to use it? Have you seen anything like it in other mods? I don't use too many parts mods, so I don't know.
  Spoiler

   

  • I think it's designed to be a low-gravity take-off engine. For landers and such. Why retractable? Because it looks cool, I guess...
  • As a rule of thumb in KSP, short engines are designed for use in vacuum. See - Spark, Terrier, RS+'s Pug. Compare Thud to Terrier (Thud is actually good... below 4 km ASL on Kerbin). Terrier's nozzle is very wide, but the thrust is low for that size.
  • VTx-202 looks like a compact Terrier
  • My suggestion: Terrier's thrust and vacuum-optimised ISP. Since it's so compact it looks unrealistic, there are 2 choices - make it efficient despite its looks or make it somewhat less efficient. Either way, it looks like a high Vac./low ASL ISP engine and should be efficient enough to make it a viable choice. Make it too inefficient = it becomes useless compared to Terrier.

   

   

3. ILX-40, the long, retractable engine.

Points to consider before you read my ideas:

• What is it for?
  Spoiler

  Looks like a take-off booster engine.

   

• Why is it retractable?
  Spoiler

  a) to protect it during landing or b) for the looks

  Considering a), imagine you land on any planet of your choice, using aerobraking. You'll want to protect your nozzles from dust and such.

• Should it be efficient?
  Spoiler

  It doesn't look like it's efficient, but it has to be efficient enough to be better than other engines in some situations.

   

• Thud has bad ISP likely because its thrust is too high for the size of its nozzle. IMHO, RS+ should make it usable.
• All retractable engines could have higher-than-usual temperature tolerances. Why would you design a retractable engine otherwise?
• The highest stock LFO engine ISP is 380 - the Wolfhound engine form Making History. But its nozzle is HUGE.

Vacuum thrust comparison:

Edited May 8, 2020 by Krzeszny

[JadeOfMaar]

@linuxgurugamer @Krzeszny I've tuned the engines in this pack now. So far, I've done:

Rockets

• VTx-202: I've made it into a mid-point between the Reliant engine (good thrust with 310s Isp in vac, 265s ASL) and the Terrier (345s / 85s) by giving it 325s in vac, 195s ASL.
• TRR-1: I've changed it to have 330s vac / 132s ASL from its original 325s / 235s. It now competes with the "Pug" vacuum engine from Restock Plus. I could change it back (or ignore) since it had ok stats before, comparing to the Spider engine.
• ILX-40: I've changed its Isp from 370s vac / 325s ASL to 305s vac / 275s ASL and slightly buffed its thrust, slightly lowered its mass. It now has 88% the mass and thrust of the Thud engine.

Jets

• XJ-48k Vector: Fixed excessive or obsolete settings that drive its performance as an engine. I've also set it to become very thrusty and to lose efficiency at Mach 2 (Isp starts at 8000s but falls to 4000s. Isp changing by velocity is a stock feature) and work up to about Mach 3.1. It should be a bit of "Panther jet on steroids."
• MJ-88 Mini Vector: basically made it like the stock J-20 Juno.

I've done other things such as check (mostly reduce) heat production in the engine modules (many of them are really really high), add missing keys to draw the Oxidizer gauge in staging when LFO engines are on, and raise heat limits from 2000K to 2500K, granting that much needed better survivability over stock engines. The jet engines also get their atmo power curves expanded so they rightfully produce more thrust in thicker atmospheres. (This does not mean they gain Isp.) And the rocket Isp curves are also extended to whatever atmo pressure they would logically flameout at.

Edited May 11, 2020 by JadeOfMaar

[peachyG]

hey man i cant seem to find this mod on ckan, and on spacedock the version specified is 1.8.1. maybe im just dumb of course.

i tried hand searching by author name and sorts of stuff as well.

 

[linuxgurugamer]

On 6/15/2020 at 3:59 AM, peachyG said:

hey man i cant seem to find this mod on ckan, and on spacedock the version specified is 1.8.1. maybe im just dumb of course.

i tried hand searching by author name and sorts of stuff as well.

 

You need to tell CKAN that 1.8 is compatible.  Click Settings->Compatible and then add a check to the left of the 1.8

On 5/11/2020 at 2:28 AM, JadeOfMaar said:

@linuxgurugamer @Krzeszny I've tuned the engines in this pack now. So far, I've done:

Rockets

• VTx-202: I've made it into a mid-point between the Reliant engine (good thrust with 310s Isp in vac, 265s ASL) and the Terrier (345s / 85s) by giving it 325s in vac, 195s ASL.
• TRR-1: I've changed it to have 330s vac / 132s ASL from its original 325s / 235s. It now competes with the "Pug" vacuum engine from Restock Plus. I could change it back (or ignore) since it had ok stats before, comparing to the Spider engine.
• ILX-40: I've changed its Isp from 370s vac / 325s ASL to 305s vac / 275s ASL and slightly buffed its thrust, slightly lowered its mass. It now has 88% the mass and thrust of the Thud engine.

Jets

• XJ-48k Vector: Fixed excessive or obsolete settings that drive its performance as an engine. I've also set it to become very thrusty and to lose efficiency at Mach 2 (Isp starts at 8000s but falls to 4000s. Isp changing by velocity is a stock feature) and work up to about Mach 3.1. It should be a bit of "Panther jet on steroids."
• MJ-88 Mini Vector: basically made it like the stock J-20 Juno.

I've done other things such as check (mostly reduce) heat production in the engine modules (many of them are really really high), add missing keys to draw the Oxidizer gauge in staging when LFO engines are on, and raise heat limits from 2000K to 2500K, granting that much needed better survivability over stock engines. The jet engines also get their atmo power curves expanded so they rightfully produce more thrust in thicker atmospheres. (This does not mean they gain Isp.) And the rocket Isp curves are also extended to whatever atmo pressure they would logically flameout at.

Feel free to send me a PR.  For me, the beauty of this mod was the Critter Crawler, the engines came along for the ride

[peachyG]

11 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

You need to tell CKAN that 1.8 is compatible.  Click Settings->Compatible and then add a check to the left of the 1.8

i've done this already and it's still not there, also as you can see i'm filtering by all so this can't be a version issue 

[linuxgurugamer]

2 hours ago, peachyG said:

i've done this already and it's still not there, also as you can see i'm filtering by all so this can't be a version issue 

Try searching for "critt", currently the author is myself

[peachyG]

2 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Try searching for "critt", currently the author is myself

found it, thanks. would be nicer imo if it was named bdynamics since that's what i'm (and probably a lot of people) used to

[Selphadur]

I get these errors when using with Kerbalism:
[LOG 14:06:33.866] Applying update KerbalismConfig/System/Reliability/@PART[*]:HAS[@MODULE[ModuleEngines*]:HAS[#maxThrust,@atmosphereCurve]]:NEEDS[FeatureReliability]:FOR[KerbalismDefault] to BahaSP/Parts/miniJet/part.cfg/PART[bdMiniJet]
[ERR 14:06:33.866] Error - Failed to do a maths replacement: @MODULE[Reliability] : original value="0       2351  0    3.26E+07" operator=Divide mod value="7.5E-06 2564  0    0"
[ERR 14:06:33.866] Error - Failed to do a maths replacement: @MODULE[Reliability] : original value="0       2351  0    3.26E+07" operator=Subtract mod value="1.5"
[ERR 14:06:33.866] Error - Failed to do a maths replacement: @MODULE[Reliability] : original value="0       2351  0    3.26E+07" operator=Multiply mod value="5"
[ERR 14:06:33.866] Error - Failed to do a maths replacement: @MODULE[Reliability] : original value="0       2351  0    3.26E+07" operator=Add mod value="1"
[ERR 14:06:33.867] Error - Failed to do a maths replacement: @MODULE[Reliability] : original value="0       2351  0    3.26E+07" operator=Add mod value="10"
[LOG 14:06:33.867] Applying update KerbalismConfig/System/Reliability/@PART[*]:HAS[@MODULE[ModuleEngines*]:HAS[#maxThrust,@atmosphereCurve]]:NEEDS[FeatureReliability]:FOR[KerbalismDefault] to BahaSP/Parts/retractableEngine/part.cfg/PART[bahaRetractEngine]

Any idea how to fix it? All dependencies installed.
Here is module manager log: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IFMTCvVBLBWAQwrRqu-zWyag1QvkGuF2/view?usp=sharing

[linuxgurugamer]

27 minutes ago, Selphadur said:

I get these errors when using with Kerbalism:
[LOG 14:06:33.866] Applying update KerbalismConfig/System/Reliability/@PART[*]:HAS[@MODULE[ModuleEngines*]:HAS[#maxThrust,@atmosphereCurve]]:NEEDS[FeatureReliability]:FOR[KerbalismDefault] to BahaSP/Parts/miniJet/part.cfg/PART[bdMiniJet]
[ERR 14:06:33.866] Error - Failed to do a maths replacement: @MODULE[Reliability] : original value="0       2351  0    3.26E+07" operator=Divide mod value="7.5E-06 2564  0    0"
[ERR 14:06:33.866] Error - Failed to do a maths replacement: @MODULE[Reliability] : original value="0       2351  0    3.26E+07" operator=Subtract mod value="1.5"
[ERR 14:06:33.866] Error - Failed to do a maths replacement: @MODULE[Reliability] : original value="0       2351  0    3.26E+07" operator=Multiply mod value="5"
[ERR 14:06:33.866] Error - Failed to do a maths replacement: @MODULE[Reliability] : original value="0       2351  0    3.26E+07" operator=Add mod value="1"
[ERR 14:06:33.867] Error - Failed to do a maths replacement: @MODULE[Reliability] : original value="0       2351  0    3.26E+07" operator=Add mod value="10"
[LOG 14:06:33.867] Applying update KerbalismConfig/System/Reliability/@PART[*]:HAS[@MODULE[ModuleEngines*]:HAS[#maxThrust,@atmosphereCurve]]:NEEDS[FeatureReliability]:FOR[KerbalismDefault] to BahaSP/Parts/retractableEngine/part.cfg/PART[bahaRetractEngine]

Any idea how to fix it? All dependencies installed.
Here is module manager log: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IFMTCvVBLBWAQwrRqu-zWyag1QvkGuF2/view?usp=sharing

Contact the Kerbalism people.  This is nothing to do with this mod, this is caused by a bad patch.

I do not support Kerbalisn in any manner whatsoever

[Selphadur]

Thank you. I will do so.

[JadeOfMaar]

Hey @linuxgurugamer. I finally setup that PR.

[linuxgurugamer]

New release, 1.3.6

Thanks to @JadeOfMaar for this entire update

• Added tags.
• Rebalanced rocket engines:
  • VTx-202: I've made it into a mid-point between the Reliant engine (good thrust with 310s Isp in vac, 265s ASL) and the Terrier (345s | 85s) by giving it 325s in vac, 195s ASL.
  • TRR-1: I've changed it to have 330s vac | 132s ASL from its original 325s | 235s. It now competes with the "Pug" vacuum engine from Restock Plus.
  • ILX-40: I've changed its Isp from 370s vac | 325s ASL to 305s vac | 275s ASL and slightly buffed its thrust, slightly lowered its mass. It now has 88% the mass and thrust of the Thud engine.
• Rebalanced jet engines:
  • XJ-48k Vector: Fixed excessive or obsolete settings that drive its performance as an engine. It's also set to become very thrusty and to lose efficiency at Mach 2 (Isp starts at 8000s but falls to 4000s. Isp changing by velocity is a stock feature) and work up to about Mach 3.1. It should be a bit of "Panther jet on steroids."
  •  MJ-88 Mini Vector: basically made it like the stock J-20 Juno.
•  Other fixes such as: Check (mostly reduce) heat production in the engine modules (many of them are really really high), add missing keys to draw the Oxidizer gauge in staging when LFO engines are on, and raise heat limits from 2000K to 2500K, granting that much needed better survivability over stock engines. The jet engines also get their atmo power curves expanded so they rightfully produce more thrust in thicker atmospheres. (This does not mean they gain Isp.) And the rocket Isp curves are also extended to whatever atmo pressure they would logically flameout at. 

[JadeOfMaar]

Another thing. My touches to the Isp curves should fix the Kerbalism problem reported by @Selphadur. The cause of the problem there is that some of the keys' values had non-numeric characters like "3.26E+07" (I don't remember the name of this notation, sorry) which choke MM's simple Math processor.

[Stone Blue]

8 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

The cause of the problem there is that some of the keys' values had non-numeric characters like "3.26E+07" (I don't remember the name of this notation, sorry) which choke MM's simple Math processor.

oof... I get that all the time in Unity... absolute zero values getting changed to miniscule scientific notation values... >:( ... I'm guessing floating point errors, somehow, in Unity?
Anyway, i imagine these values can slip into any auto-generated configs or .cfg keys... vOv