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Kerbal Space Program update 1.4 Grand Discussion thread.

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In an attempt to counter-balance the usual whining about slight inconveniences that comes with every update ever since 1.0, I'd like to thank the devs (and everybody else who worked on this) for all their hard work they put into the update. I'm sure that the small issues will be ironed out with the next patch and we get to enjoy the new improvements to this amazing game. 

Also big thanks to all the modders out there who tirelessly keep creating and updating numerous, incredible additions to the game that allow us mere mortals with absolutely zero programming skillz to tailor the game to their needs.

Going back to play now.

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5 hours ago, wookiee_goldberg said:

based on what Roverdude said I'm taking it as a deliberate change to prevent stock parts from intentionally clipping each other - 

I just read that post and that's not what it says at all. He was talking about donut tanks clipping into each other. Putting a smaller object in the hole is not clipping.

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30 minutes ago, Ace in Space said:

I just read that post and that's not what it says at all. He was talking about donut tanks clipping into each other. Putting a smaller object in the hole is not clipping.

And in order to make the donut tanks not clip into each other, they had to move the anchoring point outwards. As a result, all parts, regardless of size, will use that point. What you do afterwards, is your business -this means, you're not prevented from moving the Spark you showed earlier inwards and doing your thing.

What was the whole panic about?

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Regarding my comment from a few days ago about the changed standard grip values of wheels: the last big version updates we've had the opportunity to test beta's before the big release. Also, some of us had the feeling posting on the bugtracker meant real action would be taken. Nowadays it feels to some of us posting to the bugtracker is pointless because even issues with a lot of upvotes are being ignored anyway.

Is this a change for the better?

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5 hours ago, The Flying Kerbal said:

One little thing I would have liked to see was the Stayputnik being given SAS in Career mode.  It's available with the addition of a reaction wheel in Science and - I presume - Sandbox, but not in Career, I wonder why? :(

Oh well, maybe next time..?

I doubt it.

A better argument could be made that the core in science and sandbox mode should lose SAS and reaction wheels.

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2 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

I doubt it.

A better argument could be made that the core in science and sandbox mode should lose SAS and reaction wheels.

Why do you think that?

From what I can see, it really is pretty useless in its current form unless you have amazing flying skills (I don't), and it looks like I'm not the only one thinking this.

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1 minute ago, The Flying Kerbal said:

Why do you think that?

From what I can see, it really is pretty useless in its current form unless you have amazing flying skills (I don't), and it looks like I'm not the only one thinking this.

The funny thing about amazing flying skills is that everyone who has skills needed to learn them and was terrible in the beginning.

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1 minute ago, The Flying Kerbal said:

Why do you think that?

From what I can see, it really is pretty useless in its current form unless you have amazing flying skills (I don't), and it looks like I'm not the only one thinking this.

It's super light and very low on the tech tree. It can control simple rovers and even reach orbit without a ton of trouble. And everything that it gets in these modes as a bonus, every other probe has.

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1 minute ago, 5thHorseman said:

It's super light and very low on the tech tree. It can control simple rovers and even reach orbit without a ton of trouble. And everything that it gets in these modes as a bonus, every other probe has.

Well yes, that's true.  However if the thing was easier to control, it could be used for a more realistic game, landing unmanned probes on the Mun and Minmus for example, before risking a Kerbal on a manned mission.  If I was knowledgeable enough on computer software, I'd try changing it so it would have SAS in Career, just as it has in Science.

Just realised who you are, really enjoyed your KSP videos on Youtube! :D

13 minutes ago, Azimech said:

The funny thing about amazing flying skills is that everyone who has skills needed to learn them and was terrible in the beginning.

Well now, I've been playing KSP since about a week after 1.2 was first released, and while I can just about struggle with the Stayputnik and get it into orbit, I can't land it on Mun (for example).

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2 minutes ago, The Flying Kerbal said:

Well yes, that's true.  However if the thing was easier to control, it could be used for a more realistic game, landing unmanned probes on the Mun and Minmus for example, before risking a Kerbal on a manned mission.  If I was knowledgeable enough on computer software, I'd try changing it so it would have SAS in Career, just as it has in Science.

So now you have the opportunity to improve either your:

A - piloting skills
B - management skills
C - "computer software skills" - in other words modding the game, which is far easier than you would expect.

They're all great opportunities! I'm glad I chose all three of them. 

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1 hour ago, Atkara said:

What was the whole panic about?

I think you're reading more intensity in what I was saying than actually existed. It was not panic, just confusion - I couldn't tell if there had been an actual change in behavior or if I was just being dumb and forgetting/imagining something.

I'm well aware that I can move the engine inside, and perfectly content to do so; I was only saying that it was more convenient when it could be done automatically. As for the nodes, that makes sense, but not being familiar with the exact mechanics of the underlying programming, I wasn't sure whether a change to one behavior would have to necessarily affect the other, and since nesting isn't clipping, the change in nesting behavior could be anything from "unintended side effect of fixing clipping" to "necessary sacrifice." I was only pointing out that the change wasn't made specifically to stop nesting, as the comment I was replying to seemed to imply.

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5 minutes ago, Ace in Space said:

I was only pointing out that the change wasn't made specifically to stop nesting, as the comment I was replying to seemed to imply.

No it wasn't, as you correctly deduced. In fact, it had nothing to do with it.

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1 hour ago, The Flying Kerbal said:

Well yes, that's true.  However if the thing was easier to control, it could be used for a more realistic game, landing unmanned probes on the Mun and Minmus for example, before risking a Kerbal on a manned mission.  If I was knowledgeable enough on computer software, I'd try changing it so it would have SAS in Career, just as it has in Science.

There are mods for that: tech trees that limit you to unmanned starts, or even the whole shebang: Realism Overhaul (though that's still on 1.2.2 unless I'm mistaken (in which case, 1.3.1)).

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1 hour ago, The Flying Kerbal said:

Well yes, that's true.  However if the thing was easier to control, it could be used for a more realistic game, landing unmanned probes on the Mun and Minmus for example, before risking a Kerbal on a manned mission.  If I was knowledgeable enough on computer software, I'd try changing it so it would have SAS in Career, just as it has in Science.

Took a look at it.

IF, during the creation of a new sandbox/science profile, you go to the custom options and enable Kerbal Experience,  Stayputnik and any other probe core with limited capabilities (OKTO, QBE, Rovemate, HECS, etc) behaves like it does in career.

On the other hand, if you disable Kerbal Experience during the creation of a new career profile, all these probes become pros. They get all the capabilities you'd normally find on a RGU -or a level 3 pilot.

I believe the game makes no distinction between a probe core and a Kerbal pilot, which explains why both are affected by the Kerbal Experience setting.

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2 hours ago, Atkara said:

Took a look at it.

IF, during the creation of a new sandbox/science profile, you go to the custom options and enable Kerbal Experience,  Stayputnik and any other probe core with limited capabilities (OKTO, QBE, Rovemate, HECS, etc) behaves like it does in career.

On the other hand, if you disable Kerbal Experience during the creation of a new career profile, all these probes become pros. They get all the capabilities you'd normally find on a RGU -or a level 3 pilot.

I believe the game makes no distinction between a probe core and a Kerbal pilot, which explains why both are affected by the Kerbal Experience setting.

Cool find! My next science run will be much more fun because of this. It's amazing that I can still learn little things about this game even now.

I assume it's also means Blob can't fix tires and Jeb can't reset Mystery Goos anymore.

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6 hours ago, Ace in Space said:

I just read that post and that's not what it says at all. He was talking about donut tanks clipping into each other. Putting a smaller object in the hole is not clipping.

it's the same root cause for both things though - the nodes were moved to be in-plane with the top and bottom of the donut tank instead of being sunken deeper into it, and what you attach to those nodes (another tank, or an engine) is up to you, but regardless of what you attach it will still be further from the center-plane of the tank than in pre-1.4 releases. the tank-stacking-anti-clipping thing would be the actual intent of the change, and the protrusion of the spark engine would be a side-effect. The only alternative (that doesn't involve the Offset Tool) would be a tweakable on the RMB menu for the tank that lets you change the node positions like you can on the MH engine plates or the 'interstage nodes' option on payload fairings. Or a way to move the engine's top attach node down into the turbopump area of the engine instead of at the top surface, and make that an option for the engine (like the MH engines have, tank-butt or bare attach... but for Spark you could call it "donut tank attach")

Edited by wookiee_goldberg

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40 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

I assume it's also means Blob can't fix tires and Jeb can't reset Mystery Goos anymore.

No, you got it the other way around.

Disabling Kerbal Experience, bypasses the leveling process and level requirements. All Kerbals start out at level5 and all probe cores (being treated as pilots) have access to full SAS functionality & options.

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5 hours ago, The Flying Kerbal said:

Well yes, that's true.  However if the thing was easier to control, it could be used for a more realistic game, landing unmanned probes on the Mun and Minmus for example, before risking a Kerbal on a manned mission.  If I was knowledgeable enough on computer software, I'd try changing it so it would have SAS in Career, just as it has in Science.

Just realised who you are, really enjoyed your KSP videos on Youtube! :D

Well now, I've been playing KSP since about a week after 1.2 was first released, and while I can just about struggle with the Stayputnik and get it into orbit, I can't land it on Mun (for example).

Just to clarify, I'm not particularly good at KSP but I in my 1.3.1 career mode I landed the Stayputnik on the Mun for a contract mission as it was the only probe core I had the science for. It really isn't that difficult, you just need to be smooth on the controls and have enough dV that you can throw away a landing and try again if it isn't going to plan. It may be that your ship designs themselves need modifying to make controlling them easier.

Just practice with it some more. It doesn't matter if you've been playing since 1.2, if all that time you've been practicing with only using SAS. You might as well be a new player when you turn off SAS for the first time if you haven't practiced with it off.

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25 minutes ago, Atkara said:

No, you got it the other way around.

Disabling Kerbal Experience, bypasses the leveling process and level requirements. All Kerbals start out at level5 and all probe cores (being treated as pilots) have access to full SAS functionality & options.

Sorry I was being a bit too terse. That's what I meant. In science/sandbox, with kerbal xp enabled, Jeb can change a tire and reset a goo, and Bob and Bill can pilot Basically, there is no practical distinction between scientist, pilot, and engineer. I was assuming (hoping) that enabling Kerbal experience would eliminate that, too.

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So, i just found this on the PAW of parachutes: 

mYgIXuY.png

Anyone know what "Canopy Max Rotation Rate" does? It can be set between 60 and 720, but i couldn´t figure out what it does...

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23 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

Sorry I was being a bit too terse. That's what I meant. In science/sandbox, with kerbal xp enabled, Jeb can change a tire and reset a goo, and Bob and Bill can pilot Basically, there is no practical distinction between scientist, pilot, and engineer. I was assuming (hoping) that enabling Kerbal experience would eliminate that, too.

What Atkara means is you are backwards on the enabled/disabled thing. If you want the role-based capabilities to be enforced then leave 'Kerbal Experience' enabled(default). If you want to remove the restrictions and make it behave like sandbox, make 'Kerbal Experience' disabled.

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20 minutes ago, rudi1291 said:

Anyone know what "Canopy Max Rotation Rate" does? It can be set between 60 and 720, but i couldn´t figure out what it does...

In earlier versions of KSP deployed parachutes clipped into each other. It looked weird. In 1.1 or 1.2 (I don't remember), Roverdude added "fake collisions" to parachutes - they would deploy at angles, so they would appear to repel each other, like real parachutes would. 

I think this settings is for the fine control of this mechanism. 

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1 hour ago, _stilgar_ said:

In earlier versions of KSP deployed parachutes clipped into each other. It looked weird. In 1.1 or 1.2 (I don't remember), Roverdude added "fake collisions" to parachutes - they would deploy at angles, so they would appear to repel each other, like real parachutes would. 

I think this settings is for the fine control of this mechanism. 

Nah that's what the "spread angle" one does, this "Canopy Max Rotation Rate" slider is new and different - I checked 1.3.1 and the "Canopy Max Rotation Rate" slider does not exist, but "spread angle" does:

Gvww8W5.png?1

Here's "spread angle" in action:

Album a/RSzbF will appear when post is submitted
Edited by wookiee_goldberg

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1 hour ago, 5thHorseman said:

Sorry I was being a bit too terse. That's what I meant. In science/sandbox, with kerbal xp enabled, Jeb can change a tire and reset a goo, and Bob and Bill can pilot Basically, there is no practical distinction between scientist, pilot, and engineer. I was assuming (hoping) that enabling Kerbal experience would eliminate that, too.

I see now. I wasn't aware kerbals behaved like that in sandbox/science, as more than 90% of my playtime has been in career. So I had to sit down and look at it.

Anyway, it's pretty much like you hoped. With Kerbal Experience enabled, pilots do the piloting and engineers do the engineering. However:

No matter the Kerbal Experience setting and/or game mode, scientists are always the ones with the ability to reset a goo canister/materials bay, from which the data package has been collected from. As long as you don't touch the data, any Kerbal of any class can reset either. It's basically another way to discard them if you decide you don't need them, or ran the experiment by accident -which also resets it in the process.

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