munlander1

2mm hole in ISS

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1 hour ago, sh1pman said:

It looks more and more like deliberate sabotage.

 

I wouldn't jump quite that far just yet... First, pilot holes are a standard drilling technique. That is, you first drill a smaller (pilot) hole that is easier to get in exactly the right (or wrong as the case may be) spot which then helps keep the bigger drill bit at the right spot. Second, if you start a hole and stop (for example because you realised you are drilling it at a very wrong spot) before the tapered point of the bit is entirely inside the material being drilled you end up with a hole smaller than the bit you had. In thin materials that can even be a nice through hole, albeit one with a tapered edge (like you would want for counter-sinking a screw head).

So even though no 2mm holes are needed that does not prove at all that 2mm holes are not drilled in manufacturing. I may just be that any of that size are to be immediately enlarged to a required size. Or it happened as a consequence of abortive misplaced drilling attempt.

Also who would benefit from sabotaging a Soyuz?

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6 minutes ago, monophonic said:

I wouldn't jump quite that far just yet... First, pilot holes are a standard drilling technique. That is, you first drill a smaller (pilot) hole that is easier to get in exactly the right (or wrong as the case may be) spot which then helps keep the bigger drill bit at the right spot. Second, if you start a hole and stop (for example because you realised you are drilling it at a very wrong spot) before the tapered point of the bit is entirely inside the material being drilled you end up with a hole smaller than the bit you had. In thin materials that can even be a nice through hole, albeit one with a tapered edge (like you would want for counter-sinking a screw head).

So even though no 2mm holes are needed that does not prove at all that 2mm holes are not drilled in manufacturing. I may just be that any of that size are to be immediately enlarged to a required size. Or it happened as a consequence of abortive misplaced drilling attempt.

Also who would benefit from sabotaging a Soyuz?

Well, according to "anonymous sources" in RSC "Energia", drilling is not used during the construction of Soyuz at all.

Another source confirmed that no drilling is supposed to be done inside the ship. 

Of course, these are all just "sources" opinions, and should be taken with a grain of salt.

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1 hour ago, monophonic said:

Also who would benefit from sabotaging a Soyuz?

Wrong thinking. Using a somewhat dramatic analogy, terrorists don't get any benefit from it.

It's a deterrence: "you stop doing whatever I don't like, or I will do it again". 

God knows how many people are liquided with Putin. From Ukranians to Syrians, a lot of people .

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No reason to think it's sabotage. It has all of the marks of a sloppy work, which is normal there. Soyuz is a remarkably well built and designed vehicle, but it's something we can thank to predecessors who are nowdays dead or very old and "enjoy" pathetic pensions in a "generously" acquired government project apartments (obligatory cheesy carpet wallpapers included :D ).

I'll say again - the only reason Roskosmos doesn't have many accidents is because it is conservative in its approach, and relies on old, working designs with very little innovation. Funding is low, enough to keep the industry go, but people are underpaid for the complexity, importance and their degree of education.

If I wanted to go to orbit or  come home from one, I'd choose Soyuz because I value my life.

 

However, what amuses me so much is the typical same story that always repeats with Russian federation. They can't possibly admit it's maybe their sloppiness, and instead start squealing "it's a sabotage" over their propaganda outlets (RT started with squealing, others merely report it).

It's never their fault, they're perfect in what they're trying to do, everyone else is against them, enemy is everywhere, and it's the reason for all the problems in the country. If I had a millilitre of beer every time I heard that, I'd have a beer belly.

Now a scapegoat will be found. Lives will be destroyed and it will all be swept under a rug. Bussiness as usual.

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22 minutes ago, lajoswinkler said:

No reason to think it's sabotage. […]

However, what amuses me so much is the typical same story that always repeats with Russian federation. They can't possibly admit it's maybe their sloppiness, and instead start squealing "it's a sabotage" over their propaganda outlets (RT started with squealing, others merely report it).

There're some hilarious histories about workers getting drunk with 'rocket fuel'. :) 

I think we should not rule out two drunk buddies, liquided off by their salaries, resolved to "give a lesson" to that "traitors of the Communism' or some other drunken slush like that. Or by any other reason, who knows what pass through a drunk's head? (I'm sober now, it's pointless to ask me!).

What raises some serious questions about security.

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39 minutes ago, lajoswinkler said:

They can't possibly admit it's maybe their sloppiness

They always do, if it is indeed sloppiness. Proton accelerometer hammered upside down? Meteor-M flight program with incorrect launch site coordinates? They admitted their mistakes.

40 minutes ago, lajoswinkler said:

It's never their fault, they're perfect in what they're trying to do, everyone else is against them, enemy is everywhere, and it's the reason for all the problems in the country.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you.

46 minutes ago, lajoswinkler said:

However, what amuses me so much is the typical same story that always repeats with Russian federation. They can't possibly admit it's maybe their sloppiness, and instead start squealing "it's a sabotage" over their propaganda outlets (RT started with squealing, others merely report it).

Roscosmos actually released a statement on this: http://en.roscosmos.ru/20743/

46 minutes ago, lajoswinkler said:

Lives will be destroyed and it will all be swept under a rug.

Pretty sure it won't be swept under a rug. Not with the current boss of Roscosmos.

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"Sabotage" was last shouted by Musk & Co. when their rocket popped on the pad. They even believed to know whom to blame and made that public without a deeper insight. I've never heard such a thing from Roscosmos or any other space manufacturer at all. Also, Roscosmos are up to now the only ones who reliably bring persons to space & back. Let us all hope that future vehicles will perform as reliable as the Soyuz family.

While it is strange to have an apparently manually applied hole were none belongs, speculations lead to nothing except arguing. Se we better wait until the cause for the mistake is found, thinks me :-)

Edited by Green Baron

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Spoiler

Maybe they just were going to run a cable through the wall, so drilled a hole.
Say, for an outlet, a light switcher, or local network.

But then it wasn't needed, so they covered it, like any cultured man would do.

 

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I don't want to smear this with the Flat Earth debate, but apparently the picture of the hole Chris Hadfield posted on twitter is also used in a 2014 album cover.

Commodity_by_Remedy_Drive.png

At first it seems very suspicious, i was surprised too. But 50 seconds later i found out the awnser. Note how the image looks very very 'electron microscope-ey'. Yeah, i don't think you can just plop down an electron microscope on a hole and take a picture of it, let alone do that to a hole in thiscorner: (real image this time)

iss_drill_hole.jpg

If they DO have a electron camera on board... well that must mean that we have some great spin-off technology coming up ahead.

Thanks Chris Hadfield for converting more people into Flat Earthers, by the way.

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8 hours ago, sh1pman said:

It looks more and more like deliberate sabotage.

 

Lol that would be the most ineffective sabotage ever.  

Good job clearing away the misinformation @illectro

Edited by DAL59

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4 hours ago, sh1pman said:

They always do, if it is indeed sloppiness. Proton accelerometer hammered upside down? Meteor-M flight program with incorrect launch site coordinates? They admitted their mistakes.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you.

Roscosmos actually released a statement on this: http://en.roscosmos.ru/20743/

Pretty sure it won't be swept under a rug. Not with the current boss of Roscosmos.

I was generalizing the problem with the country itself and I stand by my words.

I can only hope the problem is remedied decently.

 

2 hours ago, NSEP said:

I don't want to smear this with the Flat Earth debate, but apparently the picture of the hole Chris Hadfield posted on twitter is also used in a 2014 album cover.

Thanks Chris Hadfield for converting more people into Flat Earthers, by the way.

He made a mistake and forgot to mention the image he showed was just an example. Probably way too much faith in people. He should've known better.

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9 hours ago, Green Baron said:

"Sabotage" was last shouted by Musk & Co. when their rocket popped on the pad. They even believed to know whom to blame and made that public without a deeper insight. I've never heard such a thing from Roscosmos or any other space manufacturer at all. Also, Roscosmos are up to now the only ones who reliably bring persons to space & back. Let us all hope that future vehicles will perform as reliable as the Soyuz family.

While it is strange to have an apparently manually applied hole were none belongs, speculations lead to nothing except arguing. Se we better wait until the cause for the mistake is found, thinks me :-)

I don't remember SpaceX or Elon Musk blaming anyone or saying anything beyond that they were investigating the possibility of sabotage. They definitely kept it quiet that they hired a sniper.

To keep on topic though, I don't believe this was planned sabotage. It could be a disgruntled/drunk worker, but I don't think any organized group smart and capable enough to infiltrate the Soyuz production plant would commit such a pointless act of sabotage, when there are more delicate and critical parts (such as parachutes) that are probably as closely inspected as the hull.

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15 hours ago, sh1pman said:

It looks more and more like deliberate sabotage.

 

If I was going to sabotage the ISS/Soyuz I could certainly think of a better way then drilling a small hole.

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Spoiler
2 hours ago, Mad Rocket Scientist said:

I don't remember SpaceX or Elon Musk blaming anyone or saying anything beyond that they were investigating the possibility of sabotage.

They were trying to check the neighbor's roof.

Btw, why they haven't cleaned the drilled hole with abrasive paper?
Looks so rude.

Edited by kerbiloid

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9 hours ago, Ultimate Steve said:

If I was going to sabotage the ISS/Soyuz I could certainly think of a better way then drilling a small hole.

Food poisoning is the obvious choice. Or installing accelerometers backward.

Ahem, proton M.

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We haven't expanded on the issue of the apparent traces of a less than optimal aiming of the borer while it was already turning :-)

- telephone rang

- earthquake

- strong wind blowing through open window

- distracted by escaping goo

- shaky dolly / table / chair combination (could be me, borer is set and dolly rolls the other way)

- silly colleague shakes the ladder

- ... other ?

 

Edited by Green Baron

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3 minutes ago, Green Baron said:

We haven't expanded on the issue of the apparent traces of a less than optimal aiming of the borer while it was already turning :-)

- telephone rang

- earthquake

- strong wind blowing through open window

- distracted by escaping goo

- shaky dolly / table / chair combination (could be me, borer is set and dolly rolls the other way)

- silly colleague shakes the ladder

- ... other ?

 

Not getting enough sleep

 

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Wow, How'd I miss this! So long as no one's in danger, I love these stories. My day job involves accident reporting/discovering/mitigation in a fabrication environment, and something I've discovered is that if you don't provide an anonymous means to report accidents, there's a decidedly low chance that people will report this sort of thing. But then, if you do provide an anonymous means to report accidents, no one uses it and they just come to tell you in person! It's kinda silly, but that's human nature, eh?

 

On 9/4/2018 at 8:47 AM, lajoswinkler said:

True, but whatever the answer is, I'm pretty sure I could do it with solder. However, as you said, "make it invisible ASAP" was probably the exact thing that was ordered. :(

Interestingly you need a special solder to do Aluminum, or some killer flux. Typical electrical solders  (Lead Tin / Silver Tin) just won't stick to Al surfaces. That said there are special Aluminum brazing rods made specifically for low temperature Aluminum repair that do exactly what you're talking about! The one I've seen with the biggest hype is "HTS-2000", and it has some fun youtube videos. It actually performs like in the videos and is as fun to play with as it looks.

 

So, has anyone else noticed the wander marks? That drill bit looks like it slipped a lot before catching, and over a ~1cm area. That suggests the 'culprit' was using a high spindle speed / long shank bit, but something that comes to mind is, that'd be pretty noisy, yeah? In the videos I've seen there's a good bit of white noise on the ISS, but still, you wouldn't go at it with reckless abandon, would you? Even hand drills are loud and make a distinct sound. It also looks like a bit of an awkward place to put a hole with a hand drill, being right next to that ~2cm ledge. If you just wanted to make a hole you'd do it more in the middle, right? I'm not claiming I know anything, they're just my first thoughts.

On the other hand, it's also weird to imagine a total accident causing that. It's really not uncommon to have someone put item A onto flat surface B in order to drill it and then have the bit go all the way through to B by accident, but it makes different looking markings. Also, long shank 2mm (or for me, 1/16") bits are pretty floppy. If you slip with one and accidentally hit it down on a plate of aluminum you'd most likely just gouge the aluminum a little and break the bit!

For what it's worth, in my experience, something like 70-80% of accidents that aren't caused by machine malfunction are caused by people being tired/rushed/distracted and doing something extremely silly (like trying a shortcut), or alternatively not being properly trained for what they're doing. I feel like the hole placement and the drill bit wander marks are signs of these, but on the other hand the hole actually making it through are signs of purpose... I wonder maybe if it happened early in the fabrication process? I think that's where I'd check first.

Spoiler

Something like, the part got bodged and wasn't supposed to go into the final construction, but accidentally did anyways, and then by the time it was noticed it was too late to remove. So, being on a time crunch, they fixed it up as best they could. Doesn't quite sound right, but I think it would be up there in my working hypotheses for troubleshooting the original cause.

I wish the best for the astronauts and cosmonauts up on the station! As I hear it they keep busy schedules so I hope this doesn't bite into their free time too hard.

 

13 minutes ago, Mudkip909 said:

Someone tell nasa to get flex tape

Right? Or some bike tire Green Slime.

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54 minutes ago, Cunjo Carl said:

That drill bit looks like it slipped a lot before catching, and over a ~1cm area. That suggests the 'culprit' was using a high spindle speed

Spoiler

And haven't punched the hole precursor before drilling it through.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR3vpSXMtWdW0mIXDaSQ4k

 

Spoiler

The driller has drilled a hole from intside to run the drill's wire from outside to can drill a hole from inside.

Such "Drill" sophism.

 

Edited by kerbiloid

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