[1.3.1] Ferram Aerospace Research: v0.15.9.1 "Liepmann" 4/2/18

[woot]

I activated some control surfaces as flaps for the first time last night and ran into similar problems. As I understand it, the point of flaps is to increase the camber of the wings and increase lift more than drag, making take-off possible at lower speeds. All that happened for me was reducing runway speed to a level making take-off impossible, suggesting that they increased drag far more than lift, which isn't supposed to be true of flaps (i.e., they were acting more like spoilers in their L/D ratio).

So I'm probably done trying to use flaps as my jets don't require a shorter runway anyway. Their ability to make slower landings possible is more intriguing, but I'm guessing that wouldn't go well either. What's the recommended angle? I tried everything from 20 to 50 and nothing made it easier to take off.

I'm also not clear on how to setup different flap settings. Are action groups the only way to do it? There seems to be some automation included in FAR, as my flaps seem to be start deployed on the runway, but I haven't found any documentation to confirm.

[AccidentalDisassembly]

I activated some control surfaces as flaps for the first time last night and ran into similar problems. As I understand it, the point of flaps is to increase the camber of the wings and increase lift more than drag, making take-off possible at lower speeds. All that happened for me was reducing runway speed to a level making take-off impossible, suggesting that they increased drag far more than lift, which isn't supposed to be true of flaps (i.e., they were acting more like spoilers in their L/D ratio).

So I'm probably done trying to use flaps as my jets don't require a shorter runway anyway. Their ability to make slower landings possible is more intriguing, but I'm guessing that wouldn't go well either. What's the recommended angle? I tried everything from 20 to 50 and nothing made it easier to take off.

I'm also not clear on how to setup different flap settings. Are action groups the only way to do it? There seems to be some automation included in FAR, as my flaps seem to be start deployed on the runway, but I haven't found any documentation to confirm.

There's a setting in FAR's stuff that allows you to define a default key for increasing/decreasing flap deflection. I think it's on the KSC screen only, not sure.

For me, flaps DO seem to help, but only if they're at very shallow angles, my issue is more that they have crazy amounts of drag when they go beyond a certain point and it made the wonder whether something funky was going on in general with flaps.

Ferram, I edited my post with a better explanation since I think I was getting hung up on the terms. Maybe I have understood now. Thanks for the explanations in any case!

Here's the craft: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59567837/WhatsWithTheFlaps.craft

[ferram4]

I can't reproduce the issue; maybe I fixed it in the other stuff I've been working on.

Anyway, only problem I can see with this plane (which is really, really floaty) is that it needs more aileron. A lot more aileron. And a lot more vertical tail. Basically no roll control combined with little yaw stability and a lot of dihedral effect == roll angle increases when you don't want it to. And then you crash.

[AgentWhite]

Getting some weird numbers, check the drag numbers and Cd.

[AccidentalDisassembly]

I can't reproduce the issue; maybe I fixed it in the other stuff I've been working on.

Anyway, only problem I can see with this plane (which is really, really floaty) is that it needs more aileron. A lot more aileron. And a lot more vertical tail. Basically no roll control combined with little yaw stability and a lot of dihedral effect == roll angle increases when you don't want it to. And then you crash.

Hmm, well, that's great then! Yeah, the plane is pretty crappy, its only purpose was to test the flaps funkiness I was seeing and wasn't meant to be usable in any real sense. Looking forward to the next version, then!

[mjn33]

Getting some weird numbers, check the drag numbers and Cd.

That should be fixed in the current dev build (see https://github.com/ferram4/Ferram-Aerospace-Research/issues/97). It was due to the FAR not calculating stock drag correctly.

[TheOrqwithVagrant]

Are any parts clipped into each other? I have found if I have parts clipped into each other or slightly overlapped it leads to this bug. Not all parts do it but some parts do it, especially if on a wing or other lifting surface.

I avoid part clipping as much as possible. In the case of my current explodiferous interplanetary ship, the heating has consistently started where small craft have been docked with clampotron jr.

[smartdummies]

Ferram -

Playing around in RO 10.1 on KSP 1.0.4 and I had a return of the no drag bug using Garabedian when re-entering a FASA Apollo CM. My logs can be found here https://www.dropbox.com/s/2tnd0kh1s4gpkr6/output_log_RO.zip?dl=0. The list of mods is extensive but if you need me to I will list them out.

[ferram4]

The obvious thing I see is that there are absolutely no voxel updates occurring in flight, and that there are a ton of exceptions from Smokescreen. It would be best to test with the dev build of FAR and MFI 1.1 to see if that fixes the issue, but if it doesn't I really don't have any leads.

Also, Christ there are a lot of exceptions being thrown in there.

[smartdummies]

Downloading now, I will let you know tomorrow what happens.

[ferram4]

Make sure you got MFI 1.1.1 and the very latest dev builds, some bugs got fixed and blowfish / kevlarman have informed me that trying to combine MFI 1.1.1 and not-the-most-recent dev builds results in FAR drag + stock drag for massive drag.

Anyway, status update: ducted area feature is coming along quite nicely, all that needs to be added to it now is support for parts with both intakes and engines integrated, and then after some testing it should be ready to go. Many crafts that have been area ruled will need to be re-ruled to work with this, but everything should look work a lot more realistically in the process.

[Ricardo.b]

any known issues with linux build? cause it seems to not work well here, I know FAR from win32 and I'm used to it, but in linux my planes are not flying well, control surface have almost no effects, or generate strange yaw torque when I apply roll, for example.

besides that, my crafts are getting very hot and exploding at 60km high when reentering.

Important to know: I use heat control from Nertea and kerbal 64k rescale from Paul Kingtiger, but I'm pretty sure it is FAR

Thanks for everything!

[Wolfwood]

Dumb question im sure, but i wanted to make sure the FAQ was up to date. With 1.0.4 its supposedly fixed the aerodynamic issues. I know pre 1.0 FAR added aerodynamic effects onto the craft and affected it. But with 1.0+, its suppose to add that into stock. Does FAR still improve over that in the way the FAQ states?

[ferram4]

@Ricardo.b: Linux 64 builds have been fine.

I need a copy of your output log, full list of mods with versions, and to know if you've installed through CKAN or not.

@Wolfwood: 1.0.4 replaced the old aerodynamic model, but it's still not as good as it could be. In particular, the old aero model is a lot more focused on gameplay than realism, and a lot of features that FAR has had for a while (like support for multi-part fairings, modelling changes in wing behavior from sweep and aspect ratio, and fine tuning of control surfaces) haven't been added.

There's a long post somewhere in the thread (that I should have bookmarked) by someone with a list of all the wonderful things that FAR does above 1.0+ KSP aero. I'll have to try and dig that up.

[Lanyl]

There's a long post somewhere in the thread (that I should have bookmarked) by someone with a list of all the wonderful things that FAR does above 1.0+ KSP aero. I'll have to try and dig that up.

Maybe this is the one you were talking about:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/20451-1-0-3-Ferram-Aerospace-Research-v0-15-3-1-Garabedian-6-22-15?p=1924777&viewfull=1#post1924777

[kcs123]

Is this post from Amram you are think of ?

It was from debate when nuFAR published, soon as KSP 1.0.2. release. Pretty much everything is valid for 1.0.4. too.

[smartdummies]

So far have not re-experienced the no drag bug in RO. Thanks for the prompt response ferram.

[sashan]

I'm still habing a bug of voxel model updating each 2 or so seconds. This causes massive stuttering on my otherwise smooth-running game. Unplayable. The game completely stops during each update. Moreover, they are also happening in space, what for? It can be updated once in atmosphere, everything else is just a waste of precious processor time.

I have everything at latest versions. The voxel update is shown in logs.

[Ricardo.b]

@Ricardo.b: Linux 64 builds have been fine.

I need a copy of your output log, full list of mods with versions, and to know if you've installed through CKAN or not.

Hi Ferram4, thanks for replying,

I installed manually, and here is my kps.log and gamedata folder screenshot:

http://www./download/4xsp7nj1masebg1/KSP+logs.zip //all mods were up to date until last monday

I had this issue before but cant remember how I fixed it, I already tried to reinstall several times. will keep trying, I i find the fix I'll be in touch

[damerell]

I'm still habing a bug of voxel model updating each 2 or so seconds. This causes massive stuttering on my otherwise smooth-running game. Unplayable. The game completely stops during each update. Moreover, they are also happening in space, what for? It can be updated once in atmosphere, everything else is just a waste of precious processor time.

That's what I said when I ran into it (albeit more diplomatically, hint). It's not redundant, said ferram, because the voxelisation might be working out if you've hidden an engine in a cargo bay or something like that.

I reproduced one indefinite-voxelisation issue reliably by forming vague ideas as to what made it happen and eventually paying careful attention to the debug log while doing one thing at a time on a problematic craft. I would suggest doing the same. If you use CKAN remember to report bugs there not here.

[ferram4]

@sashan: Need more information, like logs, reproduction steps, the mods you're using, etc. I haven't seen any issues like this unless it was actually necessary to take care of an animation, and at that point, revoxelization is intended behavior.

Besides that, voxelization in space is not pointless. It's also used for radiative heating, and it would be extremely dumb if docking a vehicle to a space station or deploying radiative panels didn't dissipate heat in space because the voxels didn't update.

@Ricardo.b: Well, there are a lot of exceptions in there, most of them from stuff that isn't FAR, so your issue is likely somewhere else. Like, seriously breaking kinds of issues; I don't think all of your mods are up-to-date or compatible with 1.0.4. Your GameData screenshot seems to have been corrupted, so I don't even know all of what you had, and you do need to tell me the versions, not have me go on a goose chase to find them; lots of things happen in a week, and all of a sudden old information gets lost because it's replaced with a new mod version or something.

[Svm420]

Besides that, voxelization in space is not pointless. It's also used for radiative heating, and it would be extremely dumb if docking a vehicle to a space station or deploying radiative panels didn't dissipate heat in space because the voxels didn't update.

That does it. A question I have had for a long time is does the game use drag cubes at all if using far? I read that NFE has problems with conformal radiators being much smaller than the drag cube so they work better than intended. So I wanted to know if far does anything to alleviate this. Such as setting parts to use voxel models during thermodynamic calculations instead of the stock drag cube system. If that a dumb question so be it, but I wondered if the drag cube are used at all with far, and if far was using a better system that is more robust than stock drag cubes. Thanks!

[NathanKell]

Thermo uses cubes whether or not FAR is installed, though FAR will set the areas based off what it calculates.

[Ricardo.b]

@Ricardo.b: Well, there are a lot of exceptions in there, most of them from stuff that isn't FAR, so your issue is likely somewhere else. Like, seriously breaking kinds of issues; I don't think all of your mods are up-to-date or compatible with 1.0.4. Your GameData screenshot seems to have been corrupted, so I don't even know all of what you had, and you do need to tell me the versions, not have me go on a goose chase to find them; lots of things happen in a week, and all of a sudden old information gets lost because it's replaced with a new mod version or something.

Somehow, the problem was solved. I unistalled FAR, opened KSP and played a bit to check it then I reinstalled and the issue was gone. I also noticed an increase of patches from module manager during load. I don't know if this helps. anyway, the problem is gone.

the over-overheating was HeatControl. I simply removed it

thanks for your attention!

[viktor19]

I have a question regarding the building of airplanes/spaceplanes. While flying, my SNC Dream Chaser replica tends to go into combined pitch and yaw, resulting in unrecoverable stall.

I've read somewhere that dihedral wings "under" the COM make a stable combination. However, it seems that is not the case here. I'm on my phone so I'll post pictures as soon as get to my laptop.

Thanks in advance!

Edited July 10, 2015 by viktor19
Dihedral, not anhedral