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Craft Construction Time


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I've not seen it mentioned, and a quick search gave no results for KSP2.

Does anyone think there may be, some form of craft construction time introduced into KSP2?  And does anyone have any thoughts on it in general?

I can see it having an impact on 'progression' games in particular, and may give added importance to re-usable craft.

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53 minutes ago, pandaman said:

I've not seen it mentioned, and a quick search gave no results for KSP2.

Does anyone think there may be, some form of craft construction time introduced into KSP2?  And does anyone have any thoughts on it in general?

I can see it having an impact on 'progression' games in particular, and may give added importance to re-usable craft.

At the launch pad, no here it would be a bit annoying. For colony launch pads, it makes more sense, its just an small colony not an national economy after all. 

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I can see it with under performing colonies, the super large interstellar ships, or just lacking the resources required to produce ships. But I can also see the method of you just can't build a craft until you enough resources to do so and they just pop into existence.

I can also see the benefit of having a supply of crafts at colonies. Nothing huge, but a handful of rovers and orbital shuttles for the supply routes.

Edited by shdwlrd
interruptions at work
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I was thinking along the lines of treating the VAB interface as a separate 'design' facility, which is basically how we use it in game now anyway.

Then once designed you select 'build' and it takes 'however long' before it is available for launch.  At which point it shows as available , it then takes maybe a day to get it ready for launch.

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Pointless annoyance IMO. At the very least it would require a separate simulator where we could quickly iterate on designs.

Since resource extraction is a thing, underperforming colonies can simply be bad at it.

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I certainly have mixed feelings about it, but thought I would bounce it out there to maybe generate a discussion.

I like the idea in principle, but I agree it could create lots of other hassles and issues if not implemented well.

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A construction timer does make sense in some situations. (The kilometer long interstellar ship.) But in most cases you can justify not having one for small crafts. Maybe they have some universal parts on-hand that can be fabricated in a moments notice. But i think that the resource requirements will be enough of a limiting factor for the colonies.

But I do agree that it can be an annoyance if it isn't handled properly.

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2 hours ago, magnemoe said:

At the launch pad, no here it would be a bit annoying. For colony launch pads, it makes more sense, its just an small colony not an national economy after all. 

Yeah I agree with this sentiment. I feel like construction should be a little more complicated on colony bases, but I can't see how it would be anything other than annoying to have a build timer.

And this is coming from the guy that always argues things should be complexified in other threads.

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If im forced into waiting for my craft to be built after i spent time in the vab/sph building my craft i would seriously be unhappy. I dont use mods that impose that limitation because to me, that is flatly unenjoyable. Few reasons why:

1. It may have taken me minutes or hours to build my craft. Telling me to wait more time is in my eyes unacceptable.

2. It may introduce errors into my craft. Is this my design fault? Is this a technical debt issue causing the script of the game to mess something up? Considering I can code about as well as an asteroid can be an ice cream scoop I will of course assume the former thinking I screwed up not knowing my design is fine. Then give up. Small odds, but it warrants a thought.

3. Im just not into the realistic aspect. If it were a NASA sim sure, but kerbals man kerbals.

its a small list but hey. I get that others like the wait, cool, its just not my scene.

 

191707062020

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I like the idea of craft construction time. Compared to something like life support it's nowhere near as critical to game balance so it should be fully optional and maybe only enabled by default on hard difficulty though.

If it were to be implemented in KSP2, I would like to see it more or less copy the KCT mod. Specifically, I want the ability to queue up multiple rockets and save them in a hanger/inventory so I can have spares ready to launch at a moment's notice. Additionally, I would like the system to be smart enough to allow sub-assemblies to be saved in inventory, so players can have a hanger full of universal boosters ready to go and a bunch of payloads, and be able to put them together with a fairly minimal integration time. For construction, there should be an easy way to timewarp to completion time. Research, vehicle recovery and astronaut training should also be included.

Rocket testing would probably need to be done in the sandbox, although I wouldn't be opposed to a vehicle simulator in career mode that lets you choose terrain type, atmosphere and gravity (or pick an explored celestial body from a menu to set all the parameters) to see how the vehicle fares.

Edited by Lord Aurelius
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12 hours ago, pandaman said:

Does anyone think there may be, some form of craft construction time introduced into KSP2?

Yes. A 24h real-time build delay, which you can't speed up with warp for an unexplained reason, but you can rush with Kerbal Diamonds. What are Kerbal Diamonds? Glad you asked. They are a new resource you can use to speed up construction of rockets and buildings, buy research levels, and customize your Kerbals! You get 100 Kerbal Diamonds just for signing up, and after that, they are available with convenient purchase options for $2.99, $7.99, $14.99, and $49.99 for the best value!

Just joking, of course. (I hope. :o) But in all seriousness, if construction time is tied to the simulation time, the only thing it really changes is you have to leave yourself margin on transfer windows. You can always warp forward to when your ship is ready to go. So I don't really mind either way.

Edited by K^2
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@K^2 dude... NARF!

ok jokes aside, microtransactions will not be in ksp 2 per nate simpson. You can see him say as much in the pinned Hi Everybody! Thread. 
 

yup still oppose a wait timer. Just echoing my above on that.

 

022307072020

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If paired with a good "simulation" system to try designs before building them could be a good base for a lot of gameplay features, especially ones hooking into the supply line or the life support systems.

It obviously rewards reusable tech and should also reward standardized launch vehicles, something like "if you build 10 of this it will take 50% of the time for the ones after the first".

 

Edited by Master39
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I just had a thought, an addition to my list. So, lets add:

4. Not everybody has the spare time to burn waiting for their craft to get built after being built. Some (used to be my case too) would spend a session building the mission, then tend to real life. They then would spend the next session launching the mission and time permitting arriving at mission, then tend to real life. Next session? Do mission, go back home. Is it fair to say now, you have to spend a possible extra session just to wait for that craft to get built? Then what if say my 2nd point in my original reply hits? No, construction times could potentially write off some players. Sure it could be a toggled feature, but that still has my 2nd point to contend with. 
 

in my honest opinion based on my own knowledge base and beliefs, i do not think such a feature should be stock. Toggle or not, i do not myself find it warrants such consideration and should remain a mod. Again my opinion. I know some enjoy that kinda thing, and again thats wonderful, just, can it stay as a mod?

 

031607072020

031607072020 

Edited by AlamoVampire
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My time to game is limited. Anything that adds forced waiting for any goal in a game makes that game that much less likely to be played. I just don't have the time to waste, sorry.

I have played with KCT in a distant past when I still did mods, and for specific career saves, as a self-imposed choice, I enjoyed the added simulation aspect. I've also very much enjoyed other simulation games that do the whole economy/resource/time aspect. As much as I enjoyed them, they just don't get played much anymore. Time is precious.

So, if they happen to have a spare dev to put on this and add it to the game while leaving it entirely optional, sure, I can even see myself starting the odd game save using it. Not as a core mechanic though, thank you. When I'm done designing or tweaking my ship, I need to launch and test it, now. I got iterations to do. And then it's time to run the mission or challenge. Now now now. Aww shucks it's time to head for work again. What happened to my sleep time? Oh well.

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1 hour ago, AlamoVampire said:

Not everybody has the spare time to burn waiting for their craft to get built

 

1 hour ago, swjr-swis said:

My time to game is limited. Anything that adds forced waiting

 

Time warp?

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Not only timewarp (or better - timeSKIP) but also plenty of other things to do in the meantime?

5 hours ago, K^2 said:

the only thing it really changes is you have to leave yourself margin on transfer windows. You can always warp forward to when your ship is ready to go. So I don't really mind either way.

Been doing that since the very beginning of my interplanetary travels. My ships stay in parking orbit for days before the transfer window opens. 

I have nothing against construction time, since we're talking about colonies in space. Skipping a day or two to build a rocket, if nothing happens in the meantime because maneuvers are months apart, can't hurt anyone.

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10 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

2. It may introduce errors into my craft. Is this my design fault? Is this a technical debt issue causing the script of the game to mess something up? Considering I can code about as well as an asteroid can be an ice cream scoop I will of course assume the former thinking I screwed up not knowing my design is fine. Then give up. Small odds, but it warrants a thought.

@Master39 Also, I would point out a bit of a flaw in your suggestion of time warp.

Why have a feature that 1. Risks the point I have quoted from my original reply and 2. Is by its nature designed to FORCE YOU to wait just being bypassed by time warp? Not only that but as you can see Swjr-swis confirms my point you yourself quoted. Not all of us have the time to be forced into waiting, and such a feature that is specifically designed to force that wait becomes utterly pointless, which makes me ask: why have it at all then? 
 

I’d like to recap, if added:

1. Construction time is by its designed to force a player to wait.

2. Construction time if time warp skipping is permitted becomes an irritating inconvenience that could trigger my quoted point 2 above, as well as makes the feature 100% pointless.

3. If point 2 in this recap is true (which it is if construction time gets added) it invites issues which could result from technical debt, which triggers the latter portion of my above quoted point 2 at the start of this post.

4. time warping past a forced wait renders said forced wait 100% pointless.

5. Point 4. of this recap then just adds the very real chance for even more technical debt. 
 

So, in summary: please lets NOT have that feature be stock in any iteration and instead keep it completely optional as a mod.

 

062007072020

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31 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

@Master39 Also, I would point out a bit of a flaw in your suggestion of time warp.

Why have a feature that 1. Risks the point I have quoted from my original reply and 2. Is by its nature designed to FORCE YOU to wait just being bypassed by time warp? Not only that but as you can see Swjr-swis confirms my point you yourself quoted. Not all of us have the time to be forced into waiting, and such a feature that is specifically designed to force that wait becomes utterly pointless, which makes me ask: why have it at all then? 
 

I’d like to recap, if added:

1. Construction time is by its designed to force a player to wait.

2. Construction time if time warp skipping is permitted becomes an irritating inconvenience that could trigger my quoted point 2 above, as well as makes the feature 100% pointless.

3. If point 2 in this recap is true (which it is if construction time gets added) it invites issues which could result from technical debt, which triggers the latter portion of my above quoted point 2 at the start of this post.

4. time warping past a forced wait renders said forced wait 100% pointless.

5. Point 4. of this recap then just adds the very real chance for even more technical debt. 
 

So, in summary: please lets NOT have that feature be stock in any iteration and instead keep it completely optional as a mod.

 

062007072020

Many of those same arguments against time warp for construction are equally valid for launch windows.

For me, the point of construction time is to require players to plan ahead and not just be able to slap together and launch a recovery mission 2 seconds after a Kerbal gets stranded or you notice a launch window. Plus it could also encourage standardized launch vehicles instead of a bunch of one-offs.

Right now in KSP the need to plan ahead is pretty much nonexistent with the instant construction (and also pretty much impossible without mods due to no in-game tools to do so), but IRL rocket lead times are huge and I would like to see this reflected in KSP2 in some way.

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27 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

@Master39 Also, I would point out a bit of a flaw in your suggestion of time warp.

[...]

062007072020

As I stated in my comment I think a simulation system is a requirement to even begin to talk about construction time.

But I would say that having a way to test a new design before committing resources should already be a thing for extraplanetary launchpads.

Construction time isn't to force you to wait, that would be terrible for gameplay and belongs with freemium mobile games, but could useful as a device to balance the logistics/management gameplay of supply lines and life support to make reusable designs more powerful.

 

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@Lord Aurelius : i dont see it as a good way to achieve that. Resources can be a good way however. Construction time would alienate people and for all the reasons i listed a few times now would see it not helping.

@Master39

im sorry but youre wrong. Making me wait X time for my already built rocket to be built is a forced wait. Period. Time warping past it makes it a pointless feature. Im sorry but for all the reasons i have listed above in several posts it is best left in mod land. 
 

071207072020

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1 hour ago, AlamoVampire said:

@Lord Aurelius : i dont see it as a good way to achieve that. Resources can be a good way however. Construction time would alienate people and for all the reasons i listed a few times now would see it not helping.

Time itself is a resource. Many, many games use it as such, especially strategy/management games. The timewarp saves RL time, but events in-game still progress so the player still needs to weigh how much time they have before a launch window vs how much construction capability they have and what mission vehicles and payloads they have the ability to build in that timeframe.

I agree it has the potential to be annoying if not done correctly and could make the game significantly more challenging (especially with regards to life support), which is why I would advocate for this to be a difficulty option like the current comm network system which isn't enabled on a normal difficulty game, but might be default on hard and could be toggled on/off to fine-tune the difficulty.

I don't see how this would alienate people, many of the same arguments have been used against any kind of stock life support system where the assumption is that it's forced on everyone and is a worst-case implementation. Given that we have the ability to fine-tune the difficulty in KSP1 and turn off features like reentry heating and comm network requirements, I seriously doubt the devs would force everyone to use the system (especially for sandbox and custom games) and I expect that if they did put the feature in, they would also put some thought on how to make it not overly annoying given that's how reentry heating and comm networks came in (they were done by mods for years before they became stock).

Edited by Lord Aurelius
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47 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

im sorry but youre wrong.

No I'm not, I played 2 careers with KTC using time-warp and it was not pointless.

It encouraged me to use standardized rockets and reusable tech.

Instead of building the perfect purpose specific rocket for every mission I had to take into account what I had ready in the hangar and use that.

I also loved to have my fleet of planes and SSTOs with some planes designed to be flying test platform for new technologies.

Also loosing a SSTO while landing means a longer wait for the next mission and/or risking to miss a launch window.

Construction / production times even with time warp are not something new in management games, they're an integral part of logistics.

 

Construction time rewards people planning ahead, regardless of time-warp.

 

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