ISRU - Xenon gas production... make it stock in 1.x?

[KerikBalm]

So I'm looking at the preview videos, and ISRU can only make LF, Ox, and monoprop... no way to refuel ion drives.

This is somewhat realistic... but I'm already wondering if the system can be modded so that Xenon gas can be mined from atmospheres of other planets.

IRL, Argon is 1.8-1.9% of the atmosphere on both Earth and Mars. Argon is also usable in an ion drive (gives better Isp, but requires much more energy to generate the same thrust).

Xenon gas is easily retained by a planet due to its high mass - its jsut not very abundant. On earth, you can still get it by simply cooling very large amouts of air (fractional distillation of air).

Previously, I did really crude ISRU .cfg modding with intakes that didn't check for O2 (so they produce a resource in any atmosphere), and alternators that consumed intake air and produced a resource.

To me, this seems quite reasonable:

Suck in an atmosphere, run it through fractional distillation equipment -> obtain propellant for ion drives.

So then the non-kerbin places it would work: Duna, Laythe, Eve. It would be particularly fun for Duna and Eve, since you could fly around a lot with Ion powered planes, and refuel them (although I still want a stock electric fan for flying on those worlds. If we have rovers to explore the Mun, we should have electric planes to explore duna and eve - luckily, that is very easy to mod)

Who agrees that there should be a stock Xenon production system?

[Red Iron Crown]

This is really a suggestion for the stock game, moving to the appropriate subforum.

RoverDude has apparently made the resource system very modder-friendly, I'd imagine that adding xenon production will be relatively easy. As for whether it should be stock, I'm a bit on the fence with that idea. Not being able to ISRU it offsets its high efficiency to a degree, but ISRU is a bit of a late game thing anyway, so why not?

[RayneCloud]

Also, heat management, power management, weight..etc... the ISRU is a massive investment and I see myself adding it to orbital platforms instead of surface drillers. Anywho, maybe another part for xenon?

[Whirligig Girl]

Well, making Xenon is a bit unrealistic, because it's a noble gas so it is hard to come across.

[magnemoe]

I agree, however ion engines are mostly used on small probes who operate alone so they would not benefit much of mining anyway.

On secondary use in 0.90 for me has been probes for doing orbital science around bodies, here the huge dv make it possible do lots of maneuvers to reach the experiment locations and gather the science and here refueling is practical. Note that this might be the same probes, my Jool pathfinder probe was used for Jool system science contracts until it crashed.

[panzer1b]

WHAT!?!?!

Why the heck doesnt it allow xenon in the 1st place? Xenon is the ONLY fuel my 5-15t fighters use now.

Guess ill need to stick to continuous resupply, wouldve been nice to have xenon resupplies for the fighter squadrons i have.

[KerikBalm]

Well, making Xenon is a bit unrealistic, because it's a noble gas so it is hard to come across.

Please see the first post:

Any body with an atmosphere is likely to contain Xenon. Its average speed for a given temperature is lower than most other gases (4x the mass of O2, more than 4x the mass of N2, over 3x the mass of CO2) - so it is easily retained.

It is not very abundand, but its abundant enough that you can get it anywhere on Earth just by distilling the atmosphere.

Also as we have a generic "liquid fuel" I don't see why we can't have a generic "Noble gas" - because Argon is even easier to get, and you can run Ion thrusters using that too (but you spend more electricity ionizing each atom, and you need to ionize more atoms to expel the same mass, but you can accelerate them faster, so it consumes significantly more elctric charge while getting a better Isp - which is offset by increased dry mass for more energy production).

Note my original suggestion is that the ISRU for Xenon can happen only on bodies with an atmosphere (it would be nice if the abundance was different for each planet, which the crude air intake solution cannot accomodate) - which would limit you to extracting it from Kerbin, Laythe, Duna, Eve... and well... Jool in theory I guess.

Practically, it would only be useable for refeuling spacecraft from Laythe or Duna... but it would also be useable for refeuling surface craft that fly around eve

[Whirligig Girl]

Please see the first post:

Any body with an atmosphere is likely to contain Xenon. Its average speed for a given temperature is lower than most other gases (4x the mass of O2, more than 4x the mass of N2, over 3x the mass of CO2) - so it is easily retained.

It is not very abundand, but its abundant enough that you can get it anywhere on Earth just by distilling the atmosphere.

Also as we have a generic "liquid fuel" I don't see why we can't have a generic "Noble gas" - because Argon is even easier to get, and you can run Ion thrusters using that too (but you spend more electricity ionizing each atom, and you need to ionize more atoms to expel the same mass, but you can accelerate them faster, so it consumes significantly more elctric charge while getting a better Isp - which is offset by increased dry mass for more energy production).

Note my original suggestion is that the ISRU for Xenon can happen only on bodies with an atmosphere (it would be nice if the abundance was different for each planet, which the crude air intake solution cannot accomodate) - which would limit you to extracting it from Kerbin, Laythe, Duna, Eve... and well... Jool in theory I guess.

Practically, it would only be useable for refeuling spacecraft from Laythe or Duna... but it would also be useable for refeuling surface craft that fly around eve

Maybe then it might be part of atmospheric ISRU if stock ever decides to use that. Certainly mods will be able to use ocean and atmosphere.

[Arugela]

I think if they add it. It should be a smaller 1.25 part instead of the IRSU 2.5 part?! then you can use smaller lighter parts for smaller ships. then the IRSU can be for bigger vessels and Xenon production for much smaller ones. It coudl even be a .625 part or have a canister like a distiller that is very small. It could make sense as it is normally for smaller vehicles. Or Larger vehicles could pack more or simply take their time filling tanks in orbit.

It could also contain alot of jokes about being a refrigerator on the side.

It would also be fun then to make a self sufficient satellite to go refuel your other satellites. Not to mention a nice low weight low orbit station could replenish and act as a hub for smaller ships.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Arugela

[Wjolcz]

I think if they add it. It should be a smaller 1.25 part instead of the IRSU 2.5 part?! then you can use smaller lighter parts for smaller ships. then the IRSU can be for bigger vessels and Xenon production for much smaller ones. It coudl even be a .625 part or have a canister like a distiller that is very small. It could make sense as it is normally for smaller vehicles. Or Larger vehicles could pack more or simply take their time filling tanks in orbit.

It could also contain alot of jokes about being a refrigerator on the side.

It would also be fun then to make a self sufficient satellite to go refuel your other satellites. Not to mention a nice low weight low orbit station could replenish and act as a hub for smaller ships.

Or we could use Air Scoops for that. ISRU could suck the atmosphere in through the intakes we already have in game and cool it down to get Xenon.

But it will never happen, because the devs don't want it for some reason.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Veeltch

[cantab]

Seems like some good ideas. Considering it's one resource for one engine, I think even more parts supporting that one engine is a bit much, and the best option seems like using the existing air intakes and 1.25m ISRU unit.

[MrChumley]

Hey guys!

I like the idea of a small Xenon resource generator for probes.

So I made this:

XenonScoop.zip Dropbox D/L link

I included a CC0 license. (just in case)

Essentially just a MM .cfg. It reuses meshes and textures from the existing radial intake. I had to make a new resource (Atmo) to let it use non-oxygenated atmospheres too.

Enjoy

 

*Edit: It is updated to work with KSP 1.0.5.

Edited December 9, 2015 by MrChumley

[Azimech]

Or we could use Air Scoops for that. ISRU could suck the atmosphere in through the intakes we already have in game and cool it down to get Xenon.

But it will never happen, because the devs don't want it for some reason.

Isn't that a very big assumption?

[Wjolcz]

Isn't that a very big assumption?

I asked for it in one of my threads. Might be my poor interpretation of RoverDude's words, but he said it's open for modding if we want atmospheric ISRU.

[Pthigrivi]

I could go either way on this. I get wanting to balance xenon by making it ungatherable, but being pretty dependent on solar is a big balance by itself. If anything they could add a coop that would only work on Eve, Duna, Jool, and Laythe. You should also need the large processor as a bit of balance against the small one.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Pthigrivi

[Rath]

ISRU is really easy to mod--it was one of the first things I did when 1.0 came out

[Alshain]

I asked for it in one of my threads. Might be my poor interpretation of RoverDude's words, but he said it's open for modding if we want atmospheric ISRU.

Keep in mind RoverDude is a developer, not a producer or project lead. He has some influence but he does not make final decisions. So, just because he (or anyone with a red name) says he wants to or doesn't want to, doesn't mean it will or will not happen. Unless Harvester or Maxmaps says it, don't take it as definitive. Even then there is no guarantee.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Alshain

[supermendi007]

Sure, right now I need this!

[RoverDude]

This was discussed when we were designing ISRU, and specifically opted not to be included (it really did not make sense to have it as a byproduct of 'Ore', which is more analogous to cracking hydrogen/oxygen from hydrate-rich rock).  

As noted, pretty trivial to add this to parts given the extensibility of the resource framework.  Usual deal, never say never, etc. - but do be aware that this is a case of something we were aware of and discussed (and ultimately made a call on) vs. something that was not considered when building out the feature.

[Mister Dilsby]

1 hour ago, RoverDude said:

As noted, pretty trivial to add this to parts given the extensibility of the resource framework.  Usual deal, never say never, etc. - but do be aware that this is a case of something we were aware of and discussed (and ultimately made a call on) vs. something that was not considered when building out the feature.

If it were ever done, I'd love to see the resource grabber for xenon, and maybe also for liquid fuel and oxidant, be a 'scoop' that operated like the jet air intakes. Imagine 'skimming' the atmospheres of Jool, Eve or Laythe for fuel! Yield rates would have to be based on the concentration of various elements in each atmosphere (with that of Xe being REALLY low) and large power requirements in order to compress and liquefy the resource. Note that liquefaction would conveniently separate the gases, just like IRL

Edited December 8, 2015 by Kuzzter

[Tatonf]

On 26/4/2015 23:13:03, KerikBalm said:

IRL, Argon is 1.8-1.9% of the atmosphere on both Earth and Mars.

Science nazi here, it's only 0.93% on Earth.