[1.12.x] USI Life Support

[Wyzard]

OK, now that I'm activating my hab module correctly:

After launching my craft with 165 days of hab time, I timewarped about 10 days in the tracking station, then switched back to the craft, and got messages that the kerbals had refused to work due to homesickness, then immediately returned to work again.  The status window shows 155 days remaining.  EC and supplies are both fine too.

Is that the "micro holiday" issue that's been discussed recently?  If so, I have a save that reproduces it — though I'm using two Near Future parts, so it's not entirely stock+USI.  (I didn't design the ship for debugging purposes.)

[ruiluth]

Am I the only one trying to build spaceships with greenhouses on them? No one seems to be talking about how the Nom-O-Matics are only producing a fraction of what they used to produce. The 25000-I, the gigantic one, can't even support two kerbals. I wanted to do a Duna mission but that's gonna be really difficult without greenhouses. I know there were changed made to them recently, but I thought those were reverted? And if this is intended, then what am I supposed to use for extending my supply of supplies?

EDIT:

I've been reading everything I can find on the subject. Just when I thought I had finally gotten the hang of MKS in 1.1.3, the entire system changes and all the converters work totally differently. Not to be dramatic or salty or anything, but I'm just gonna delete my entire USI folder because this is just too ridiculously complicated and inconsistent. If someone can explain that it's much simpler than it looks and it's actually doable, I might reconsider, but this news that the old greenhouses no longer work and the new ones don't even show their stats and are enormous is too much to handle. Which means that there really is no good life support mod out there anymore... which means that manned missions just lost 90% of their interest. Which means that KSP just lost 99% of its interest... Guess I'll have to play some other game til someone finds a way to fix this mess.

Roverdude, I respect you a lot and greatly appreciate all the work you do, but why did you change everything up? It seems like software developers are constantly changing things just for the sake of change. It seems like every app on my phone get a new interface every year and Google ones every 6 months. Why can't we just find something that works and stick with it?

Edited December 2, 2016 by ruiluth

[Rabada]

1 hour ago, ruiluth said:

Am I the only one trying to build spaceships with greenhouses on them? No one seems to be talking about how the Nom-O-Matics are only producing a fraction of what they used to produce. The 25000-I, the gigantic one, can't even support two kerbals. I wanted to do a Duna mission but that's gonna be really difficult without greenhouses. I know there were changed made to them recently, but I thought those were reverted? And if this is intended, then what am I supposed to use for extending my supply of supplies?

I believe that you are forgetting recyclers, like the RT-500 recycling Module. I was actually just did the math to figure out to balance the life support for a station I am designing so I'll copy what I figured out here. This station is intended to support up to 3 Kerbals at a time. If anyone notices any errors please correct me.

 

1 Kerbal = .0005 supplies consumed per second

 

3 Kerbals = .0015 supplies per second

 

The RT-500 recycling Module will reduce the supply consumption of 3 Kerbals by 79%,

 

(3 Kerbals) x (1 RT-500 recycling Module) = ( .0015 supplies per second ) x ( .21 )

(3 Kerbals) x (1 RT-500 recycling Module) = ( 0.000315 supplies per second )

(1 Kerbal) x (1/3 RT-500 recycling Module) = ( 0.000105 supplies per second)

 

The Nom-O-Matic 25000-I  can produce up to 0.00132000 Supplies per second

The Nom-O-Matic 25000 can produce up to 0.00066000 Supplies per second

The Nom-O-Matic 5000  can produce up to 0.00013200 Supplies per second

 

(.00132) / (0.000105 Supplies per second) = 12.57....

(0.00066000 / (0.000105 Supplies per second) = 6.285...

(0.00013200) / (0.000105 Supplies per second) = 1.257....

 

Number of Kerbals 1 Greenhouse can Support

	with enough RT-500Ts	without enough RT-500s
Nom-O-Matic 25000-I	12.57	2.6397
Nom-O-Matic 25000	6.285	1.31985
Nom-O-Matic 5000	1.257	0.26397

 

Edited December 2, 2016 by Rabada

[dboi88]

@Rabada that info is really useful. Thanks for sharing. Would you mind if I stole this for the Wiki and KSPedia?

[Rabada]

1 minute ago, dboi88 said:

@Rabada that info is really useful. Thanks for sharing. Would you mind if I stole this for the Wiki and KSPedia?

Sure! That's a good idea, I would have posted it myself if I had the time to properly format it and add in other converters like the science lab and such. Thankyou!

[RoverDude]

6 hours ago, Wyzard said:

OK, now that I'm activating my hab module correctly:

After launching my craft with 165 days of hab time, I timewarped about 10 days in the tracking station, then switched back to the craft, and got messages that the kerbals had refused to work due to homesickness, then immediately returned to work again.  The status window shows 155 days remaining.  EC and supplies are both fine too.

Is that the "micro holiday" issue that's been discussed recently?  If so, I have a save that reproduces it — though I'm using two Near Future parts, so it's not entirely stock+USI.  (I didn't design the ship for debugging purposes.)

Yup - that's the issue I am trying to track.  Please please please get me that save wiith a repro.  If it's just NFT and USI and stock on that specific ship, that's fine - I can take a peek.  Just let me know which specific NF parts are on it so I can install the right subset of parts.

6 hours ago, ruiluth said:

Am I the only one trying to build spaceships with greenhouses on them? No one seems to be talking about how the Nom-O-Matics are only producing a fraction of what they used to produce. The 25000-I, the gigantic one, can't even support two kerbals. I wanted to do a Duna mission but that's gonna be really difficult without greenhouses. I know there were changed made to them recently, but I thought those were reverted? And if this is intended, then what am I supposed to use for extending my supply of supplies?

EDIT:

I've been reading everything I can find on the subject. Just when I thought I had finally gotten the hang of MKS in 1.1.3, the entire system changes and all the converters work totally differently. Not to be dramatic or salty or anything, but I'm just gonna delete my entire USI folder because this is just too ridiculously complicated and inconsistent. If someone can explain that it's much simpler than it looks and it's actually doable, I might reconsider, but this news that the old greenhouses no longer work and the new ones don't even show their stats and are enormous is too much to handle. Which means that there really is no good life support mod out there anymore... which means that manned missions just lost 90% of their interest. Which means that KSP just lost 99% of its interest... Guess I'll have to play some other game til someone finds a way to fix this mess.

Roverdude, I respect you a lot and greatly appreciate all the work you do, but why did you change everything up? It seems like software developers are constantly changing things just for the sake of change. It seems like every app on my phone get a new interface every year and Google ones every 6 months. Why can't we just find something that works and stick with it?

First, as someone probably already noted, you need recyclers as well.  This is nothing new, been that way for a while.  The only thing that got reverted was the wear mechanic (more to keep things a bit simpler for now).

Second... yeah, you're being a bit salty.  The stats are all there.. that didn't change (here are even more stats shown now than in prior versions).  Life support works just fine... heck, if anything, stuff tends to have much longer durations these days (i.e. I eased up on some of the constraints).  You're also on the USI-LS thread not the MKS one, so I don't have all of the context of why you're having an issue.. I would bet a cookie though it's something trivial.  But saying you are not being salty... then dumping a heap of salt on us... does tend to make folks a bit less enthusiastic about support.

Also, obligatory reminder.  Neither you, nor anyone else who plays KSP, are the 'audience' for the stuff I make.  I make things for me.  People see them, and ask to have them.  I, being a nice guy, share.  It's a good social contract... I share stuff, people help test things, toss in pull requests to help out, etc. - and everyone wins.  So when I change something, I change it because I probably saw something when I was doing my own play through that I wanted to adjust a bit... so I do so.  Simple as that.

Edited December 2, 2016 by RoverDude

[dboi88]

1 hour ago, Rabada said:

Sure! That's a good idea, I would have posted it myself if I had the time to properly format it and add in other converters like the science lab and such. Thankyou!

Done 

https://github.com/BobPalmer/USI-LS/wiki/Mission-Planner-Example:-Supplies

[Wyzard]

2 hours ago, RoverDude said:

Yup - that's the issue I am trying to track.  Please please please get me that save wiith a repro.

Here you go: #178.  The NFT parts are both from Near Future Spacecraft.

This save also exhibits a different and (presumably) unrelated bug in the game itself: the ship is on an escape trajectory out of Kerbin's SOI, but after some time goes by, the escape disappears from the ship's path.  Looks like it's prioritizing a Mun encounter that would happen much later, instead of the SOI change that actually happens first.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Wyzard

[nascarlaser1]

Hi!

I am using USI LS and Planetary base systems combined. Last weekend I launched the core for PBS, along with 2 Kerbals and enough food to last 1 week. After 1 week and the extra 15 days, my food was gone, but my Kerbals were unaffected. I have all USI settings to basic "grumpy." Am I doing something wrong that leaves my Kerbals happy as clams, or did I install it wrong? My base is at the top of Kerbin in the artic. I just want some form of reaction to loss of food, preferably what is described in OP.

 

Thanks!

Edited December 2, 2016 by nascarlaser1

[dboi88]

9 minutes ago, nascarlaser1 said:

Hi!

I am using USI LS and Planetary base systems combined. Last weekend I launched the core for PBS, along with 2 Kerbals and enough food to last 1 week. After 1 week and the extra 15 days, my food was gone, but my Kerbals were unaffected. I have all USI settings to basic "grumpy." Am I doing something wrong that leaves my Kerbals happy as clams, or did I install it wrong? My base is at the top of Kerbin in the artic. I just want some form of reaction to loss of food, preferably what is described in OP.

 

Thanks!

Hi,

Kerbals don't need supplies while on the home planet so they will never expire. I think it's anything under 20km?

[nascarlaser1]

Just now, dboi88 said:

Hi,

Kerbals don't need supplies while on the home planet so they will never expire. I think it's anything under 20km?

ohhhh ok thank you!

Time to finish my base (and make it much lighter) now that I don't have to worry about it, YAY!!!

[ExplorerKlatt]

23 minutes ago, dboi88 said:

Hi,

Kerbals don't need supplies while on the home planet so they will never expire. I think it's anything under 20km?

It is under 25km and is also configurable in the settings. 

[tsaven]

1 hour ago, nascarlaser1 said:

Hi!

I am using USI LS and Planetary base systems combined. Last weekend I launched the core for PBS, along with 2 Kerbals and enough food to last 1 week. After 1 week and the extra 15 days, my food was gone, but my Kerbals were unaffected. I have all USI settings to basic "grumpy." Am I doing something wrong that leaves my Kerbals happy as clams, or did I install it wrong? My base is at the top of Kerbin in the artic. I just want some form of reaction to loss of food, preferably what is described in OP.

 

Thanks!

People have already noted that USI-LS doesn't have requirements when in Kerbin. But also keep in mind that KPBS hasn't been updated with support for the newest version of USI-LS and MKS yet. It functions fine, but some of the balences are off with some parts being really over powered, and some under-powered. 

When RD releases a compatibility guide after the dust settles from this latest update, I'll be working through the KPBS parts to get them in line with the rest of the USI parts. 

[panarchist]

7 hours ago, RoverDude said:

Also, obligatory reminder.  Neither you, nor anyone else who plays KSP, are the 'audience' for the stuff I make.  I make things for me.  People see them, and ask to have them.  I, being a nice guy, share.  It's a good social contract... I share stuff, people help test things, toss in pull requests to help out, etc. - and everyone wins.  So when I change something, I change it because I probably saw something when I was doing my own play through that I wanted to adjust a bit... so I do so.  Simple as that.

I think that's the most important thing to remember - RoverDude (or any other modder) isn't under any obligation to provide anything to anyone.  And he puts up with a lot of flak from people who aren't in lockstep with what he wants to do, yet doesn't take his toys and go home.  Also, each of us views what we're asking as "it's just one request" - except there's one RoverDude, and there are hundreds of "single request" users of USI mods.

I mean, it's fine that we're not all 100% happy.  I don't like all of the changes made either.  There's always the option to create MM configs for your own use which change the balance, or occasionally someone else will make a mod that piggybacks on other mods.  (I did that once for USI-LS) And TAC-LS is still around and maintained if you want an alternative.  

This isn't meant to single anyone out, but as a user of RoverDude's mods, it's very frustrating to me that he has to take time out to address a lot of questions that are either answered in the OP, have been asked one or more times in the most recent 3 pages of the thread, or are worded in a way that is pretty much guaranteed to make someone take offense.  Sometimes, there are more meta-posts dealing with the results of one comment that the real content of the thread gets lost in the shuffle for several pages. (especially when CKAN comes up)  My rambling point is, if you're going to post to a friend, there's a few good guidelines:

1. Read the last 3-5 pages of the thread to see if your question has been asked or answered
2. Be polite
3. Have empathy - this is all done for free by people who may have other commitments
4. Remember that no one owes you anything
5. Act like you're a guest in someone else's house, because that's what someone else's thread is like.

Apologies to all in the thread for contributing to the Noise end of Noise vs. Signal - thanks for "listening".

[Zhetaan]

1 hour ago, dboi88 said:

Kerbals don't need supplies while on the home planet so they will never expire.

I've been meaning to ask about this.  Can HomeWorldAltitude be shut off entirely?  Alternatively, can it accept negative values?

[dboi88]

3 minutes ago, Zhetaan said:

I've been meaning to ask about this.  Can HomeWorldAltitude be shut off entirely?  Alternatively, can it accept negative values?

Looks like it does accept negative values. Not sure if this would cause issues elsewhere though.

[Zhetaan]

@dboi88:

That's what I'm afraid of.  I don't want to commit to the setting if it's going to cause an overflow error or infinite loop somewhere.

 

[dboi88]

@Zhetaan I'd posit that @RoverDude would have included a check there if a negative value would have made bad things happen. I'd go with it if i was you.

Edited December 2, 2016 by dboi88

[ruiluth]

12 hours ago, Rabada said:

I believe that you are forgetting recyclers, like the RT-500 recycling Module. I was actually just did the math to figure out to balance the life support for a station I am designing so I'll copy what I figured out here. This station is intended to support up to 3 Kerbals at a time. If anyone notices any errors please correct me.

Thank you so much! This is exactly what I was looking for. This should definitely be on the wiki, thanks @dboi88!

8 hours ago, RoverDude said:

First, as someone probably already noted, you need recyclers as well.  This is nothing new, been that way for a while.  The only thing that got reverted was the wear mechanic (more to keep things a bit simpler for now).

Second... yeah, you're being a bit salty.  The stats are all there.. that didn't change (here are even more stats shown now than in prior versions).  Life support works just fine... heck, if anything, stuff tends to have much longer durations these days (i.e. I eased up on some of the constraints).  You're also on the USI-LS thread not the MKS one, so I don't have all of the context of why you're having an issue.. I would bet a cookie though it's something trivial.  But saying you are not being salty... then dumping a heap of salt on us... does tend to make folks a bit less enthusiastic about support.

Also, obligatory reminder.  Neither you, nor anyone else who plays KSP, are the 'audience' for the stuff I make.  I make things for me.  People see them, and ask to have them.  I, being a nice guy, share.  It's a good social contract... I share stuff, people help test things, toss in pull requests to help out, etc. - and everyone wins.  So when I change something, I change it because I probably saw something when I was doing my own play through that I wanted to adjust a bit... so I do so.  Simple as that.

I apologize, you're right, I probably should have thought that over a bit more before I posted it. It was late and I was frustrated and it's easy to say mean things on the internet. I really do appreciate all the work you do and your generous attitude towards the community. I'm definitely going to give these mods another chance and try to learn how they work this time. Sorry again...

[Gilph]

Hi, two of the four kerbals (Jeb and Val are redshirted) refused to work homesickness when switching to a vessel. Status shows 147D remaining

Thanks

Edited December 3, 2016 by Gilph
redshirts

[RoverDude]

7 hours ago, Zhetaan said:

I've been meaning to ask about this.  Can HomeWorldAltitude be shut off entirely?  Alternatively, can it accept negative values?

You could probably set it to negative

@Gilph - save please and I can take a look.  I'm also looking into a more permanent fix now that we've confirmed it is habitation and not EC or something

[Crabman]

1 hour ago, Gilph said:

Hi, two of the four kerbals (Jeb and Val are redshirted) refused to work homesickness when switching to a vessel. Status shows 147D remaining

Thanks

Make sure to not have AmpYear installed, it was the cause to a similar problem of mine.

[RoverDude]

0.5.13 is up - with a hab bug fixed   Ping me if anyone is still having issues

[Gilph]

Hi, save is here.  you will need a mechjeb ar202 part to see the ship.  The vessel is XP2 where is issue is. No Ampyear installed.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AigvIEvgjetqvjxo_ayTvjaBNLkP

[Wyzard]

12 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

0.5.13 is up - with a hab bug fixed   Ping me if anyone is still having issues

Works for me with my save.