Dedicated Radiator Panel parts

[mattinoz]

It would be really great if we could have a set of proper radiator panels that would rotate away from the sun, and act as more efficient radiators. They could look much cooler (metaphorically, I mean), because they could glow a dim red when radiating heat.

Solar panels being radiators doesn't make much sense, because solar panels point towards the light, but radiators are generally pointed AWAY from the sun so that they aren't heated by it.

It would just be a bit more complete now that we have a proper heat system. Once we have this, we might be able to use such things as nuclear reactors.

Interesting solar panels are silicon thermocouples from what understand from various green-architecture* lectures I've been to.

Sure they might be simplifying it a lot for the audience but if your fixed panels on the dark side of a craft that are acting as radiators shouldn't the thermocouple be producing power at the same time.

[RoverDude]

Actually, it's not uncommon to have the reverse side of solar panels act as radiators since the dark side is always away from the sun that's why you got it in stock.

But (speaking as a player) I agree with the need for discreet radiator and heat management components

[Red Iron Crown]

discreet radiator

It is very important that radiators don't tell where they get their heat from or where they emit it.

Sorry, RD, couldn't resist.

[passinglurker]

Actually, it's not uncommon to have the reverse side of solar panels act as radiators since the dark side is always away from the sun that's why you got it in stock.

But (speaking as a player) I agree with the need for discreet radiator and heat management components

It is very important that radiators don't tell where they get their heat from or where they emit it.

Sorry, RD, couldn't resist.

The law of thermodynamics would string them up by their heat pipes if it ever found out

unleash the puns!

[Rath]

Ooo, yes, an active heat pump system. Connect them like fuel ducts.

I think you like this Idea because a heat pipe is similar to a hose.

[Brotoro]

My kingdom for a hose!

[Angelo Kerman]

So I'm continuing my investigation into the new heat mechanics and found these parameters in the Part object:

public double thermalConductionFlux;

public double thermalConvectionFlux;

public double thermalInternalFlux;

public double thermalInternalFluxPrevious;

I'm guessing here, but are these in terms of Kelvin? Are they measured in units/sec or units/fixed update?

If I know an object's mass and current temperature, and its specific heat capacity 800, then I should be able to get the amount of heat in watts that a part has, right? Basically if I know how much thermal energy a part has, then I can transfer that energy to a radiator and cool the part while heating the radiator.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Angel-125

[Francois424]

A solid, good idea - I approve.

Yeah, that would be awesome. Interstellar had those - they looked neat, and it was cool that they had kinda the opposite objective vs. a solar panel heh

I wonder if one could transfer the necessary files from interstellar to 1.0 and "adapt" the code to serve such a purpose ? If so it could be an easy fix. (or I should say... an easier fix). +1 for the Idea about having stock ones tho.

[NathanKell]

They're in kilowatts (kJ/sec). They're the values you see when you turn on "show thermal data" (debug toolbar->physics->thermal->that).

You get also get part thermal mass (in kJ/K).

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

I have nothing to add to this conversation, just +1, bump bump ++, please, pretty please?

[Paul Kingtiger]

Radiators would be cool. Also we could have an evaporant part that reduced heat at the cost of a fuel. Oxidizer would be cool, but monoprop would probably been easier from a craft design point as it's a single resource tank.

[Angelo Kerman]

They're in kilowatts (kJ/sec). They're the values you see when you turn on "show thermal data" (debug toolbar->physics->thermal->that).

You get also get part thermal mass (in kJ/K).

Fantastic, thank you. Based on the above explanations:

radiativeArea: Probably in m^2, and the game somehow calculates this.

These three parameters are the heat transfer, in kilowatts, of the part, into the environment. Negative values must mean that heat is going out of the part.

thermalConductionFlux;

thermalConvectionFlux;

thermalRadiationFlux;

These parameters are the kilowatts of heat transfer that goes between parts. I think positive values mean heat is coming in and negative is heat going out.

thermalInternalFlux;

thermalInternalFluxPrevious;

Thermal mass of the part:

thermalMass: (dryMass * standardSpecificHeatCapacity *thermalMassModifier) + (resourceMass * hsp) //Resource thermal mass calculated for each resource. Possibly already done with resourceThermalMass. Thanks Red Iron Crown!

For my radiator with thermalMassModifier = 4.475 and dryMass = 0.5### and no resources:

thermalMass = 0.5 tonnes * 800 * 4.475 = 1,790 KJ/K (confirmed in game)

I based my thermalMassModifier on lithium's specific heat capacity of 3.58 KJ/Kg-K (3850 KJ/tonne-K)

### I suppose I could also have 0.5tonnes of lithium as a coolant resource, brilliantly named Coolant.

NOTE: If I have a Coolant resource, then I now have a way to sacrifice Coolant for a quick heat dump.

So, thermal energy = thermalMass (KJ/K) * temperature (K)

If my radiator is at 1000 K, then my thermal energy = 1790 * 1000 = 1,790,000 KJ

If my radiator's maximum temperature is 2400K, and we have a "working temperature" of 0.85 of that, then the maximum thermal energy that the radiator can take on is:

2400 * 0.85 * 1790 = 3,651,600 KJ

OK, now I'm starting to see the picture. Once I know my thermal energy, I can transfer that energy from a part to my radiator, and then calculate my radiator's new temperature as well as the part's new temperature.

Now my next question: how can I prevent heat from going out of my radiator and back into parts it is attached to?

I will have my working radiators, dagnabbit!

Edited April 29, 2015 by Angel-125

[Dodgey]

If we are going to make dedicated parts a thing can we tie it to crewed modules as well? For example you need to keep your crew cabins below a certain temprature or your Kerbals die, and each crewed part generates heat due to the "life support system" in it.

[Whirligig Girl]

I agree. Both surface mounted radiator panels (like the Apollo Service Module had mounted on it) and extendable radiator panels that orient their surfaces at right angles to the sunlight.

And even just static, unmoving panels, like the Discovery from 2001 would have had.

They radiate heat, but they don't move away from the sunlight.

Additionally, the Space Shuttle's cargo bay doors acted as radiators. So that's something to add to the cargo bays when they are opened.

[SmallFatFetus]

Here is my radiator model/animation

See this thread as well

SmallFatFetus

Edited April 30, 2015 by SmallFatFetus

[eddiew]

Yes please, radiators are rather important! My SSTO's only failing is that it can't run it's nerva at full pelt, and thus falls back into the atmosphere :/

[klgraham1013]

Fantastic, thank you. Based on the above explanations:

radiativeArea: Probably in m^2, and the game somehow calculates this.

These three parameters are the heat transfer, in kilowatts, of the part, into the environment. Negative values must mean that heat is going out of the part.

thermalConductionFlux;

thermalConvectionFlux;

thermalRadiationFlux;

These parameters are the kilowatts of heat transfer that goes between parts. I think positive values mean heat is coming in and negative is heat going out.

thermalInternalFlux;

thermalInternalFluxPrevious;

Thermal mass of the part:

thermalMass: (dryMass * standardSpecificHeatCapacity *thermalMassModifier) + (resourceMass * hsp) //Resource thermal mass calculated for each resource. Possibly already done with resourceThermalMass. Thanks Red Iron Crown!

For my radiator with thermalMassModifier = 4.475 and dryMass = 0.5### and no resources:

thermalMass = 0.5 tonnes * 800 * 4.475 = 1,790 KJ/K (confirmed in game)

I based my thermalMassModifier on lithium's specific heat capacity of 3.58 KJ/Kg-K (3850 KJ/tonne-K)

### I suppose I could also have 0.5tonnes of lithium as a coolant resource, brilliantly named Coolant.

NOTE: If I have a Coolant resource, then I now have a way to sacrifice Coolant for a quick heat dump.

So, thermal energy = thermalMass (KJ/K) * temperature (K)

If my radiator is at 1000 K, then my thermal energy = 1790 * 1000 = 1,790,000 KJ

If my radiator's maximum temperature is 2400K, and we have a "working temperature" of 0.85 of that, then the maximum thermal energy that the radiator can take on is:

2400 * 0.85 * 1790 = 3,651,600 KJ

OK, now I'm starting to see the picture. Once I know my thermal energy, I can transfer that energy from a part to my radiator, and then calculate my radiator's new temperature as well as the part's new temperature.

Now my next question: how can I prevent heat from going out of my radiator and back into parts it is attached to?

I will have my working radiators, dagnabbit!

Man, this community is awesome.

[Bill Phil]

I would like some dedicated parts. Radially mounted (Apollo style) and deployable.

Basically, something like the solar panels. We have a surface mounted one, and we have deployable ones.

Are solar panels "radiators"? Currently, in game...?

[ImperialistPigDog]

I would like some dedicated parts. Radially mounted (Apollo style) and deployable.

Basically, something like the solar panels. We have a surface mounted one, and we have deployable ones.

Are solar panels "radiators"? Currently, in game...?

The do work as a radiator but there not great. I think deployable ones would be cool, regular passive radiators would be good as well.

[lincourtl]

So is KSP now modeling heating from planetary infrared emission, and solar radiation, or is it just modeling heat generated by the ship?

Also, do we need to worry about adding heat in deep space? Do we need, say RTGs, to warm up our lonely probes?

[NoMrBond]

Being exposed to sunlight definately adds to your heat, although I'm not sure if planets are thermal stores/emitters/reflectors?

I don't think there are problems with things being too cold (yet), but that would also been cool neat.

[lincourtl]

Being exposed to sunlight definately adds to your heat...

Awesome. One step closer to perfection.

[meve12]

I was

with something like that earlier (fudging the rotation using the solar panel module)

They're a bit big though (ok they're ruddy enormous @36m long), I'll have a look at making something a bit smaller

Is there going to be a downloadable mod for this? Soon?

[Angelo Kerman]

Man, this community is awesome.

Yeah no worries. I also found this in the Part class: public void AddThermalFlux(double kilowatts);

That's pretty much the last piece of the puzzle. I know how to calculate the thermal energy for each part, and with that method, I can reduce the amount of thermal energy in the part and transfer it to my radiators. I should have DSEV working with the new heat next week.

[kendfrey]

What I'd like to see in the name of gameplay and balanced mechanics is this set of parts:

• Passive heat sinks with high conductivity and high heat capacity. They would probably be medium-heavy.
  
• Active (liquid refrigerant?) cooling parts that transfer heat in a specific direction. They would be quite heavy, and use electric charge to run.
  
• Radiators with low-ish conductivity but high surface area for radiation. They wouldn't need to be heavy, but to use them for heavy-duty cooling, you'd need to combine them with the heavier parts to get more heat into the radiators.