New Mobile Processing Lab mechanics

[Proply]

Hey RoverDude, I have just found out that having additional scientists on the same ship as an MPL (that already has two scientists manning it) further increase the data->science conversion rate. Is this intentional? Should be able to reproduce it easily, in case it matters I only noticed it when I docked a ship containing two replacement scientists (lvl 1 and lvl 2) to the MPL containing station. When I EVA one of the non-MPL scientists the MPL conversion rate drops (proving that it is the extra scientists causing this).

[CorBlimey]

Hey RoverDude, I have just found out that having additional scientists on the same ship as an MPL (that already has two scientists manning it) further increase the data->science conversion rate. Is this intentional? Should be able to reproduce it easily, in case it matters I only noticed it when I docked a ship containing two replacement scientists (lvl 1 and lvl 2) to the MPL containing station. When I EVA one of the non-MPL scientists the MPL conversion rate drops (proving that it is the extra scientists causing this).

who knows if it is intentional but I feel it is ok. Or at least, way better and less game breaking than stacking multiple MPL on the same craft.

Either way, the tech tree needs a serious rebalance (I will restart anyway with a proper install of RemoteTech, life support mod, etc and probably dial down my science multiplier) because even without MPL, a couple of decent Mun and Minmus trips can unlock near everything.

Dialling down science multiplier on a new game is the way forwards - though I would have liked to have been able to run my launches by using a science -> funds strategy the penalty for in-the-field science is so high that I wouldn't even cover the cost of launching stuff to top up my data banks.

[cephalo]

I'm still a bit confused about how this works. Let's say I do most of the experiments available on Mun, after that, is there any benefit to putting a lab there?

[DavidBowman]

I actually like the new system. It's basically a means for making more funds. Useful in career mode, even if you have already unlocked the whole tech-tree.

A life support mod or implementation could balance the system though. (Please don't let this turn into a life support discussion!)

Right now, maintaining a lab on Eeloo is almost as simple as maintaining a lab in LKO. Just feed it data and it will generate science.

[Laie]

I'm still a bit confused about how this works. Let's say I do most of the experiments available on Mun, after that, is there any benefit to putting a lab there?

Short answer: yes.

Long answer: just read the first three pages of this thread, all the important bits are there. No need to repeat it once more.

[bounty123]

So my first research lab over Kerbin has a whole bunch of processed experiments stored. Can I just take them all and put them in a new lab elsewhere and process them again? If so then it seems a bit OP but cool anyways.

[Laie]

So my first research lab over Kerbin has a whole bunch of processed experiments stored. Can I just take them all and put them in a new lab elsewhere and process them again?

Yes, you can re-use the science in another lab. However, each lab should be in it's own, distinct vessel: if there's more than one lab in a station, only the first one will process new data.

[thedoktorj]

I am loving the new science lab. I put one in orbit around Kerbin before I knew how it worked and managed to figure it out, but all this info is really helpful for optimizing things. I've also been loving the gameplay element added by bringing a scientist in a probe flown vessel to do experiments and then trying to bring him back to the lab to manually offload data. I had a really fun "mission" where I flew him around to various Kerbin biomes in a plane, then landed him at the runway and built a short range rover to bring him to the launchpad, where I loaded an empty ship that he manually climbed all the way up and took to orbit to dock with the station and offload science.

On that note, what is the best way to upgrade our scientists? Do they only gain levels only by being on manned missions to various places or can they level up by processing data and such in the lab? I haven't brought my researching scientists back from the lab and recovered them yet to see if this is the case.

[Deimos_F]

This thread is awesome.

Allow me to contribute with some knowledge. This should be featured in the item description, but it is not: when you are processing data to store in the lab to convert into science later, the lab consumes 10 el.charge/second (when you press the yellow button). When the lab is converting data to science, it uses 5 el.charge/second.

I am a huge fan of the new MPL, and I'm using it extensively. However I have an issue with it.

I wrote this in a post in the subreddit, but I honestly doubt I'll get any feedback there. Allow me to copy paste:

Trying to tweak an aspect of the processing lab. Could use help from someone familiar with modding. Also, there's a bug in the lab.

The processing lab is amazing. But it has a major flaw: it becomes a place you have to visit often, in a very grindy way. To give you an idea: I'm doing a contract to place a satellite in sun orbit between Dres and Jool. Even before I reached the orbit's apoapsis I've had to stop what I'm doing and go to my research station in Minmus, to transmit the accumulated science points, which had reached maximum capacity, a total of six times. The station has 3 scientists in it, all level 2. This, plus all the other factors, make it so that, with the data storage topped off, I get about 500 science points every 100 days. On a side note, this is where I found the bug. The lab displays a science points per day value, and that value is wrong. I get a value of about 1.8 when the data storage is topped off, yet I'm actually getting almost three times as much daily science.

What i want to do is make it so it becomes unnecessary to visit the station so often, just to push the "transmit" button and sit around waiting.

I know that getting vessels to perform actions in the background is an extremely tricky thing to mod in this game (here's hoping the shift to the Unity 5 engine / multi-threading in the next update resolves that), so instead of trying to get the lab to transmit its science contents periodically, I dove into the science lab's .cfg file (largeCrewedLab.cfg) and tried to make the lab able to hold ten times more data, and ten times more science, so that I'd be able to leave it running for much longer before needing to transmit. However, this is basically impossible to do without screwing up the lab's research rate. Turns out the amount of science produced per unit of time is calculated based on a complex exponential equation that takes into account, besides the factors like number and level of scientists, the amount of data stored vs maximum storage and the amount of science stored vs maximum storage.

This meant that when I tried implementing a maximum storage of 5000 for both categories, I got readings of science production rate of over 3.4/day (and given the bug, the true value was likely much higher). Basically it seems impossible to tweak the storage limits without screwing up things.

My question to the more mod-savvy among you is: is there any alternative? Could we, I don't know, implement and additional "module" in the .cfg, and have this module serve simply as a secondary storage? I imagine we could have this storage be triggered by the amount of accumulated science hitting a preset value, like 490 (it never hit's 500, the rate drops to near zero when the lab is full of science), and that would cause it to take the accumulated science and store it, while dropping stored data points into the lab for further processing.

I dunno, I might be going the long way around. There might not be a way around. But I really want to try to find it, because having to go through the process of switching vessels every 100 days, simply to empty out the lab, is absurdly grindy.

---

The bug seems mostly minor and inconsequential besides an inability to predict outcomes.

The real problem is the grind. It takes science back to the constant clicking dynamic.

Can't even imagine how bad it gets when you have two or three labs running in diferent locations.

Any ideas on how to work around this?

[Kendrick]

Rover is it intended to nerf the science by only allowing 1 science station to run at a time per vessle? I have a space station with 5 labs but can only use 1 at a time no matter how many scientists/data i have. when 1 of the labs hits 500 data all of them say nope cant do it. I just picked up 15 data points from the mun and converted about 3 to data but Im now stuck waiting for that 1 lab to process it out. for any other lab to do any thing

[Doh just noticed other posts mentioning that it works that way.]

Edited May 16, 2015 by Kendrick

[CloudlessEchoes]

I have two mobile labs docked to each other in Minmus orbit, and it won't let me put any data into the second one. Is this an intended restriction? It keeps saying it's full. I moved the science to that one before attempting to load it.

[Mister Spock]

Also, what sort of benefit does a second scientist add to a lab?

And, like an earlier poster, I'm curious how people level up their scientists.

[Deimos_F]

Also, what sort of benefit does a second scientist add to a lab?

And, like an earlier poster, I'm curious how people level up their scientists.

More scientists make research much faster.

And all Kerbals level up the same way: doing fly-by's, orbiting, and planting flags on different planets.

[Mister Spock]

Thanks, Deimos.

[Laie]

Basic training:

• put all rokies onboard a vessel.
  
• land on the mun, take off (no EVA necessary).
  
• land on minmus. Everyone needs to plant a flag on minmus. Take off.
  
• go into an orbit around the sun. As soon as you're out of Kerbin SOI, you may turn around immediately and head back home.
  
• recover everyone on Kerbin. They will now have three stars.
  

[fjarandag]

Not sure if it's the best place to make one or two suggestions regarding Mobile Labs:

#1 I would make the MPL an experiment of its own

#1a the dynamic of taking its time makes sense

#1b An exponentially decreasing output per biome would make sense (infinite science might be awkward, if some mod wants more science or a player gets stuck there might be better solutions than a built-in cornucopia).

#1c Would be interesting to have specific-purpose labs in specific location for missions/extra science (e.g. deploy the Hubble telescople), even to unlock specific tech nodes/abilities

#1d Those labs might need resupply (physically, with new stuff from KSC) in order to get more science.

#2 I would make the MPL as a refiner for samples/experiments you bring back to Kerbin (pack better the samples, select better samples).

#2a Being the rationale to do in MPL something you must do IN SITU, not something that might be done elsewhere.

#2b In that sense I liked it better when the Materials Lab and the Goo was reseted at the MPL and just there. That operation might need special instruments/supplies (fancy containers, reactives) that not even a scientist in her EVA suit might be carrying.

#2c Might make sense to transmit about a sample without sacrifying the sample. Current situation brings an interesting game decision (to transmit or not to transmit), but also brings awkward hacks (landers with duplicate/triplicate/quadruplicate experiments) or an extra pod just to store more copies of the experiments).

I dont know if in 1.0 with the new tech nodes you can unlock everything with just the 2 moons (like Scott did with 2 launches) and the extra MPL tech output will be of any use. Anyway, as I swarm Mun and Minmus for science, the MPL output is negligible and I have better use for Bob and any other extra scientist i might get. So sorry I think MPL's have become a bit useless except for harder modes (need more science) or role playing. And of course the fact that the way experiments are restored now is more to blame than the new functionality for the MPL.

[mrklaw]

When you put data in it, is it copying the data across, or moving the data across? Eg if I put a lab on minmmus and want to hop across a few biomes doing EVAs and samples, then come back and drop them off - do I still have that science to return to kerbin, or will I need to go back and gather it again?

[KerbMav]

When you put data in it, is it copying the data across, or moving the data across? Eg if I put a lab on minmmus and want to hop across a few biomes doing EVAs and samples, then come back and drop them off - do I still have that science to return to kerbin, or will I need to go back and gather it again?

After processing an experiment into lab data it becomes available for transmitting/returning again.

The station has 3 scientists in it, all level 2. This, plus all the other factors, make it so that, with the data storage topped off, I get about 500 science points every 100 days. On a side note, this is where I found the bug. The lab displays a science points per day value, and that value is wrong. I get a value of about 1.8 when the data storage is topped off, yet I'm actually getting almost three times as much daily science.

What i want to do is make it so it becomes unnecessary to visit the station so often, just to push the "transmit" button and sit around waiting.

Turns out the amount of science produced per unit of time is calculated based on a complex exponential equation that takes into account, besides the factors like number and level of scientists, the amount of data stored vs maximum storage and the amount of science stored vs maximum storage.

This meant that when I tried implementing a maximum storage of 5000 for both categories, I got readings of science production rate of over 3.4/day (and given the bug, the true value was likely much higher). Basically it seems impossible to tweak the storage limits without screwing up things.

I imagine we could have this storage be triggered by the amount of accumulated science hitting a preset value, like 490 (it never hit's 500, the rate drops to near zero when the lab is full of science), and that would cause it to take the accumulated science and store it, while dropping stored data points into the lab for further processing.

Changing the maximum of stored science to 2500 at least only leaves the problem of slowed down processing as the amount of data goes down.

But are you absolutely sure that the amount of science influences the conversion speed?

Does the conversion speed change with changing level of crew? Maybe the scientist level bonus is not accounted for in the display?

Edited May 18, 2015 by KerbMav

[haltux]

When I see arguments over whether something is OP in the same thread as folks complaining something is too slow/not worth it, I take that as a good sign

One single way mission to Minmus, with single lab and multiple landing brings you more than 10000 science points. It allows you to uncover most of the science tree. In one single no-return mission, without requiring a multi-part vessel or even a really massive rocket.

You do the same with Mun (which requires slightly more fuel, I have not done it but I guess it is doable as well in one mission), and you have finished the tech tree, entirely.

Compared to that, one mission to Moho with landing and trip back, immensely more complex, will bring you less than 1000 science points.

MPL are insanely overpowered. Squad got good ideas with the new MPL but they really have to balance it now, because clearly it kills the career mode.

[Murph]

One single way mission to Minmus, with single lab and multiple landing brings you more than 10000 science points. It allows you to uncover most of the science tree. In one single no-return mission, without requiring a multi-part vessel or even a really massive rocket.

You do the same with Mun (which requires slightly more fuel, I have not done it but I guess it is doable as well in one mission), and you have finished the tech tree, entirely.

Compared to that, one mission to Moho with landing and trip back, immensely more complex, will bring you less than 1000 science points.

MPL are insanely overpowered. Squad got good ideas with the new MPL but they really have to balance it now, because clearly it kills the career mode.

They are only overpowered if you use them in an overpowered way. I'm finding them to be quite slow, personally, as I'm not spamming them at the game then time warping a year or 2 ahead. I've got them out there orbiting Kerbin, Mun, and Minimus, slowly generating science, while I do more interesting things, like exploring, contracts, etc. I rarely warp more than a day or 2 ahead at a time. For missions that take weeks or months, I launch those, set an alarm, and do other missions while they slowly proceed. With that play style, any nerf to the labs would make them unbearably slow to the point of not being worth the launch cost and fuel to take them somewhere.

Basically, I'm playing the game in fast real time, not 10 minutes of stuff then warp massively ahead for the next 10 minutes of stuff, and the lab seems slow but very balanced for that. I've got a couple of solar orbit missions that are something like 100-ish game time days into the future for their next alarm, it may be several real weeks before those alarms are reached, or certainly a good few days, and I'm doing lots of local missions and planning and setting up other remote missions while those slowly plod ahead.

[Randazzo]

One single way mission to Minmus, with single lab and multiple landing brings you more than 10000 science points. It allows you to uncover most of the science tree. In one single no-return mission, without requiring a multi-part vessel or even a really massive rocket.

You're leaving out the years of waiting while doing nothing else.

The real question is why you would choose to play your game in such a boring way.

[MarvinKitFox]

Correct me if I have this wrong....

So I can build a cluster of 100 science labs, and "launch" it.(leave it on the launch pad)

Then get EVA report(launchpad), and put it in each of the labs, and cogitate on that...

And make some 2500 science, before I recycle the labs for 100% recovery?

Sounds broken to me.

[Murph]

Correct me if I have this wrong....

So I can build a cluster of 100 science labs, and "launch" it.(leave it on the launch pad)

Then get EVA report(launchpad), and put it in each of the labs, and cogitate on that...

And make some 2500 science, before I recycle the labs for 100% recovery?

Sounds broken to me.

You have it completely wrong. 1) A single EVA report won't generate anything like that much science data, especially one of the lowest value EVA reports in the game. 2) You can put 1 lab or 1000 labs there, the max science will be the same if they are all part of the same craft, as you can't load into specific labs, it's a single craft-wide data pool. 3) If it did work, or you launched hundreds of science lab rovers around KSC you'd need hundreds of scientists at vast cost.

[Laie]

Correct me if I have this wrong....

A single EVA report will get you nowhere, you won't get many data points to work with while still on the surface, and several labs in one vessel don't work... But in principle, you have it right.

One-time investment + minimal housekeeping + timewarp -> infinite science.

[Murph]

One-time investment + minimal housekeeping + timewarp -> infinite science.

Which, if you are actually honest with yourself, is every bit as much a cheat as just editing your persistent.sfs and adding the science directly. You can abuse the labs and cheat, but you are only cheating yourself, and delusional if you refuse to admit that it's cheating.

If you don't want to bother doing science the interesting way, just don't do it. If you don't abuse the lab, there is no balance issue with it, it's actually very slow, to the point of only narrowly avoiding being frustratingly slow.

Edit: And in a game like KSP, there is absolutely nothing wrong or dishonest with cheating. It's only wrong or dishonest if you try to deny it.