Having fun and being critical

[Musil]

Since 1.0 launched, I have found this forum to be almost intolerable. And this used to be such a fun community! Yesterday there was a flamewar going on about the pointer... the bloody pointer! I found it quite nice when I noticed it was there. And a transparent navball... yeah, good job, SQUAD. But every time I come in here, there is endless whining going on about this and that... To make things worst, now I have to whine about the whining.

Now, let's be clear: there are problems with 1.0. Two big ones, in my opinion: pods turning the wrong way on reentry* and not having a way to dissipate heat (radiators are really needed). There are other things too: some bugs still exist, fairing confeti is silly and contracts need more improvement. Yes, this are concerns.

But I don't know what people expected. For KSP to remain in beta sine die? What would that accomplish? I would bet a finger that if a 0.91 had been released just to test the waters, people would have complained about a 1.0 release that added no new features. Besides, I imagine SQUAD wanted to launch with a proper bang, not just with a «oh, this is the same game we had at last update, only some bugs have been fixed». Maybe some people would like a lot more features in the game, like life support, but the team wanted to launch, and can't you understand why? They are a small indie team and you wanted them to slave away for years without being able to say voilá. I don't like getting personal on the internet, but maybe this calls for it: recently I finished writing a very large book. Took me years to write, and a lot of hard work. Of course, once the last page was finished, I had to look back and find all the "bugs"; but I can testify to the need of saying something like «this still needs work, but after 4 long years damn me if I am not proud of saying it is done».

Now, as for the trivial whining... and by trivial I don't mean complaints about the pointer; that's beneath disputing. People see something they are not used to and, no mater how good it is, they want to complain. Well, damn them.

I have seen a lot of complaining about previous rocket designs not working any more. Of course, before that it was complaining about the soup atmo, but now let's complain because it's hard to get into space. People: it is SPACE! Ok, simulated space in a game, but how could you possibly complain about not being able to get into it by only using jet engines... The point of a game is for it to be difficult to master, for there to be obstacles to conquer. So if your cheesy SSTO doesn't work any more, make a better one.

People complain about career. «Too grindy at hard settings!» (easy solution comes to mind). «The tech tree is hard to complete!». «I want fairings, but I don't have them yet!». «I don't want to build a rocket using ridiculously small tanks and lousy engines!». Again: a game, supposed to present a challenge. What I like about career is that I can't just build anything; I have to mind the fact that with the limitations of the early stages I can do only very few things effectively. I can't get more experiments and bigger rockets, I have to make a hard choice. Today I had to get some tourists into orbit... Failed miserably four times, because the rocket was hard to control. Of course, I cursed myself for not allowing reverts; but that is not SQUAD's fault! It's my own, because I set myself a challenge and failed. But when the tourist finally completed the itinerary, I was satisfied and had a lot of fun (of course, the &%$/"! contract set me back 40k, but that's not the point).

I saw one guy complaining that he couldn't finish the tech tree with just a couple biomes at KSC. What? Well, he wanted to play sandbox, only with science and kerbals gaining XP. I think you can't blame the devs for not having that game in mind when they made KSP, can you... Maybe you have fun with that, but I must say it's rather unique, and can't be expected to be what the game should be. And you can always just work around that ading the science and the money in the save file. Same thing can be said about a lot of the complaints people seem to have about the current game.

To sum it up, because this is getting long: should we be critical? Yes, of course: that probably helps SQUAD to make the game better. But, please, good kerbonauts, stop with the whining. Maybe this is not the game you imagined when you where six years old and dreamed up the perfect game, but it's the game SQUAD dreamed up. You can play it if you have fun with it, and count your blessings, but if you don't have fun, find an alternative: mod it, be cheesy or just play something else. Don't be a killjoy.

Have fun, people. Really. It's not that hard.

*: A mod has fixed this already, for those of you still having problems. I solved it by putting nothing on the pods except the heat shield and then just manually keeping it stable.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Musil

[zekes]

You're definitely right. At first I hated the new game, but it's just a bit of learning the feel again. And I couldn't care what it's called.

[flightmaster]

Well said brother/sister!

[Superfluous J]

I seem to be having little problem doing both.

I've said my piece elsewhere so I won't rehash it all now.

[THX1138]

For me having fun and being critical aren't mutually exclusive.

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

Have fun, people. Really. It's not that hard.

Wise words

+1

[Musil]

For me having fun and being critical aren't mutually exclusive.

That's the point.

[Wolf Baginski]

The biggest job I did Monday was to back up my v0.90 install, with a huge folder of downloaded mods. It's safely there, for if I want to do things the old way. I may transfer the data to a USB stick in a few weeks.

v1.0 is different enough that I wouldn't guarantee any earlier schemes will work. So what?

The early days of the Science mode are hard. Fairings aren't a huge problem but reentry heating blocks off designs I used. It's not impossible for me to go back to v0.90 but it would feel like a bit of a cheat.

We're all learning again. I just wish the KSP streams didn't depend on having a Facebook account to join the chat. I have a slide-rule and know how to use it!

[DevoidLight]

Other the the bugs my only complaint is that there's no stock readouts in the VAB for delta-v. Seriously, what's up with that?

[Musil]

Other the the bugs my only complaint is that there's no stock readouts in the VAB for delta-v. Seriously, what's up with that?

The devs don't want it. They think it takes away from the "I hope this works" feeling the game should have. But I don't want it stock any more: they will never ad something like KER (they don't like the idea), and KER fulfills all my needs... so I am happy.

[zekes]

The devs don't want it. They think it takes away from the "I hope this works" feeling the game should have. But I don't want it stock any more: they will never ad something like KER (they don't like the idea), and KER fulfills all my needs... so I am happy.

I agree, I use KER, Hyperedit (for big tests of projects only) and the new heat mod - it helps me make good high quality stock craft for other people to enjoy...

[Aerindel]

I paid for the right to be critical.

And like someone else said, you can have fun and be critical at the same time. Do I hate the new mouse with a fiery passion? Yes. Does it stop me from playing the game no? Do I think its idiotic to have a new mouse and no option to return to the default one? Yes.

Some things I will agree on, there is no reason to expect old craft to work, they shouldn't. I even like that they don't. That is not a problem at all.

But some things are just plain broken, no matter how you play the game. There is a big difference between a challenge and just doesn't work right.

The parachutes are insanely overpowered in 1.0 in the old game I would have to slow my ships down to about 800 m/s before I open my chute or they would be ripped apart, now I just punch it as soon as I start falling and nothing bad ever happens.

SAS is totally buggered now, turn it to any of the navigation modes and it just flips out, my engines gimbal so fast you see double or triple nozzles flicking back and forth.

Atomic engines are unusable and there is no way around that. I like the idea of giving them special challenges to use right, but why add a part that creates so much heat and not add any parts to radiate it? Why nerf their thrust at the same time? It seems someone just said, "hey, lets totally ruin the most important engine in the game and make it so you can't do anything about it?"

Bugs I can handle, bugs are just what it means to play games. But these are deliberate design choices that have really screwed up a game that I really like otherwise.

Are their things I like? Sure. I love the equpiment bays, no more ships that just look like someone stuck a hardware store all over them. I love the fairings (although would love them more if they didn't turn into confetti) The new areo seems pretty nice, although I may be biased just because its so much easier than it used to be.

And the game crashes less which is always a good thing.

But people have the right to be pissed when there is a 1.0 release and there are so many things that seem like nobody ever tested them. I mean how in the name of god does the broken re-entry model get past anyone? Its something you find on your second or third flight. Did nobody every actually try re-entry even once?

Lets put it this way, I've had the game for two years and this is the first time that anything in it has gone so wrong that I actually started posting about it.

[andruszkow]

The devs don't want it. They think it takes away from the "I hope this works" feeling the game should have. But I don't want it stock any more: they will never ad something like KER (they don't like the idea), and KER fulfills all my needs... so I am happy.

No, no, that is definitely not why. If we just take the recent AMA on Reddit, the reason the dV readouts didn't make it, is because they are a part of a bigger system that they're implementing. A system that involves scientists and engineers to have more skills. They didn't put dV readouts in the game, because the experience system with your crew that allows for this isn't ready for release yet.

I think Squad were brave not to put it in - Now that I know it's a part of a bigger and different picture than I thought, I'd rather they wait until it's done. Besides, all I had to do was download KER, which was updated like 1 hour after release.

- - - Updated - - -

I paid for the right to be critical.

And like someone else said, you can have fun and be critical at the same time. Do I hate the new mouse with a fiery passion? Yes. Does it stop me from playing the game no? Do I think its idiotic to have a new mouse and no option to return to the default one? Yes.

Problem isn't that people are throwing critique around. The problem is that people are being critical at any cost.

There's a very fine line between being rightfully critical, and being downright rude. If "idiotic" is the best word you're able to dig out of your vocabulary when being critical, you're not just critical, you're rude.

EDIT: Like the OP, this is what bothers me the most. People are being rude and juvenile about it.

[Aerindel]

There's a very fine line between being rightfully critical, and being downright rude. If "idiotic" is the best word you're able to dig out of your vocabulary when being critical, you're not just critical, you're rude.

I was being nice, I word I really wanted to use would be censored. Feelings deserve to be hurt when people make arrogant choices. The mouse wasn't just a mistake, someone decided that they wanted to force what they thought looked cool on thousands of people without giving them a choice. That person is an idiot. If everyone just gives them a free pass to avoid being rude then that person will continue to make bad choices. Don't forget, we already bought the game, its not like we can punish the devs by not buying it. The only way to make them do anything is to push on their emotions, hoping that the knowledge that they upset a lot of people with their choices is enough to make them make different choices. Being rude is the only leverage we have, and since this is the internet and only about 100th of normal empathy flux can flow through it compared to real life, you have to use words much more forcefully than you would in real life.

On thing I forgot to mention on my list of likes, the new way the science labs work...that is a wonderful change, maybe my favorite thing about 1.0

[andruszkow]

"... someone decided that they wanted to force what they thought looked cool on thousands of people without giving them a choice. That person is an idiot."

That could be said about the entire game. Being nitpicky about something as silly as a mouse pointer is just... Meh.

EDIT: Their product, their choice.

But yes, the science lab! The science lab is awesome!

[LostOblivion]

Both Squad and you are making good points, and it's totally justified. I guess the whole release into finished game thing plays psychologically with people, comfirming or not comfirming their idea of what the final game will be about. I also think all the whining escalates so when people see others whine, they start whining themselves. However, no doubt Squad and all the testers did a great job with 1.0, and Ted makes an important point about software testing, which is that the test team is there to cull away the most serious bugs, like crashes, save file corruption, etc., not these minor bugs people escalate to an uncalled for level.

Keep it fun!

[Aerindel]

Being nitpicky about something as silly as a mouse pointer is just... Meh.

Think of it this way, the mouse pointer is the ONE THING that you have to look at ever single second of the game. Changing a pointer from your computers default is like changing the keyboard layout, its reaching out of the game and screwing with the way you interact with the computer. The fact that is such a minor thing almost makes it worse since there is no reason at all for it not to just be a choice.

I guess the whole release into finished game thing plays psychologically with people, comfirming or not comfirming their idea of what the final game will be about

Thats true. If this was a beta it would bug me less but the whole 1.0 thing feels like they are trying to set things in stone and a few of those things seem like major mistakes to me and a lot of other people. Before the screwed up things could always be dismissed as "well, its just a beta" but now things are serious, or at least thats how they seem.

And the game is sooooo close to being pure gold. It really is. There are only a handful of things that people are complaining about and they are all design choices that could be fixed with a few lines of code and a few adjustments to values. Its only because its so good that anybody cares. If this was just normal indie game shovel ware nobody would even be complaining.

Well, maybe not the thing that turns Val into a Kraken and twists her head off in EVA, but thats kinda cute.

[jwenting]

For me having fun and being critical aren't mutually exclusive.

of course not. But whining and complaining ceaselessly without ever wondering if maybe you're doing it wrong? Which a lot of the complaining comes down to...

1.0 isn't perfect. Heck, perfection doesn't exist.

Is it frustrating at times? Yes, sure. We all have to relearn a lot of things because they've changed.

Are there bugs? Sure. I hate not being able to bring things back from orbit reliably due to them blowing up (had a command pod blow up at 60km earlier from overheating, well before the reentry heat started, and despit having the heat shield oriented correctly for example). Maybe some things need rebalancing, maybe the heating is too severe at times. But it's an issue and I'm sure Squad are aware of it and working on a solution. And for now? Can just turn it off...

I think the main reason people are whining and complaining is because they suspected that 1.0 would be 0.9 with some new visuals, rather than having the complete makeover of the aerodynamic model they had been complaining about not being there, the reentry heat they had been complaining about not being there, the fairings they had been complaining about not being there, etc. etc.

Some people just aren't happy unless they are complaining, and a lot of others are mindless drones who'll jump on any complaint and voice their support without even having experienced the supposed problem...

[Wallygator]

I have seen the "Half-life" of community resistance to change last about as long as it takes for their favourite mods to come back on-line.

Modding is a core framework for KSP, I can be critical of both the Stock system and any mods I choose to explore also - all the while having fun.

And frankly, 1.0 is causing me have more fun than I expected - even with a few pesky bugs. All will be fixed in time... But its important to call out bugs clearly and politely.

This small crap storm will pass by soon... Clearer weather ahead!

[Whirligig Girl]

I noticed a bit about complaint of tiny rocket tanks, ios that, aside from the somewhat artificial feeling VAB limitation, tiny tanks makes it easier (fine-tuning of fuel) and is backwards progression.

- - - Updated - - -

The biggest job I did Monday was to back up my v0.90 install, with a huge folder of downloaded mods. It's safely there, for if I want to do things the old way. I may transfer the data to a USB stick in a few weeks.

v1.0 is different enough that I wouldn't guarantee any earlier schemes will work. So what?

The early days of the Science mode are hard. Fairings aren't a huge problem but reentry heating blocks off designs I used. It's not impossible for me to go back to v0.90 but it would feel like a bit of a cheat.

We're all learning again. I just wish the KSP streams didn't depend on having a Facebook account to join the chat. I have a slide-rule and know how to use it!

You don't need a facebook acount, Twitch just lets you sign in with facebook if you want.

[Sof]

This is a KSP forum. People who are having fun playing the game are having fun playing the game, not praising it on the forums. People who dislike certain aspects come here to complain.

I, myself, haven't had time to get back into KSP, so I'm checking out what has changed.

[Vlk]

Agreed. To be honest i started to feel this a while ago, especially amongst FAR users. The creator of FAR is awesome, and he worked a lot for us, and i had a lot of fun with that system, so i have nothing against him. But when i see someone mentioning FAR, or comparing it to the new aerodynamics, i close the kerbal forums tab

[Cdr_Zeta]

Hello,

This thread invites misnomers.

It is probly the main reason why I let it ride...we the community say what we like to see; Squad does what they feel looks kool and works kool and etc...There is a relationship here; I being a MODDED player have to be more critical but when I criticize there has to be dividing lines and specifics...I read threads like this to get an idea of the current way things are going...those who criticize and are not having fun or cant play the game the way they want, may lose a little because they cant do much about it; they are depending on us for support; guided support; from we the experienced KSP players...

They are already considering a patch...I am sure there are complaints here; 1.0 is supposed to be a near finished product and yet there are some game issues; I have to read about this so I can be in the know and play my game as best I can with what I got or dont play it at all; I am kind of in the not-playing-KSP mode until the patch comes out.

This was a major change to KSP and people griped because they wanted 1.0 like yesterday; they may not have said it but I got that feeling; I think it was pushed too early not because of what I think but because what others are saying and I have only read this thread and a few others; I havnt even begun to read half the bug posts; it is enough for me to wait til I can see myself if I can play; I am glad I can criticize and have fun; I have never complained about anything with KSP nor even made any critical statements of bugs; they all seem to work out; I just go along for the ride for awhile...and KSP is a nice ride.

Cmdr Zeta

Edited April 30, 2015 by Cdr_Zeta

[SelectHalfling0]

+rep

Considering how much they put into this update in a relatively small time span (there are not that many bugs, and they plan to patch them) I thank Squad for all the hard work and long hours they spent on KSP.

[rcp27]

I have to add my agreement to the originator of this thread. The most important thing to appreciate in software development is there is no such thing as bug-free. It doesn't exist. Version 1.0 of anything will contain a few bugs. The heat sheild bug is irritating, but I have only died from it once, after that I figured how to fly a re-entry that can cope with it. Launches are harder to do than before, but once you figure the technique for building rockets, and the technique for launching them, it's no harder than any other aspect of the game. In terms of the mechanics of the game, it's definitely as good as any 1.0 release I have encountered.

The other criticism that lots of people have is regarding the actual game play. First off, I have to say, the new atmosphere model makes the game way more fun than before. It feels fast and exciting in a way the old soup-o-sphere never did. Launches and re-entry feels exciting in a way it never did before. In terms of career mode, go back to the forum history from the days of 0.24-0.90, and look at how many people complained about how it was possible to max out the tech tree in a handful of launches. I think there was a Scott Manly video showing him maxing out the tech tree in career mode in something like two launches. That really was game breaking. Sure, the new career has the potential to be a bit more of a grind, but I have no problem with this. When I started my 1.0 career, I knew it would be a bit of a grind. I didn't go for "hard" for this very reason. I chose a version that would give me enough funds and science to keep my career moving at a pace that I would find fun, and you know what? It's fun. Sure, I have had to build a couple of launches with a ton of smaller tanks and rocket motors I wouldn't chose if I had the full tech tree unlocked, but that's part of the game: getting where you want to go with the tools available to you.

In essence, I think the developers have done a great job bringing this game to where it is, and I think they have achieved what they promised us. I think the testers have done a good job of making sure the game works well.

I have to say I have been really annoyed with the negativity I've seen on the forums in the last week. If you are having a problem with the game, please try to find a constructive way to express your frustration. If something doesn't work the way you expect it to, and you want to post about it, ask "why is this happening", not "this game is terrible, the devs suck, this must be a bug".