[1.8.1] ETT - Engineering Tech Tree - May 4, 2020

[Probus]

2 hours ago, Rocket88 said:

First of all l like say this tech tree is really fun to play, I like the fact you can choose your own path. And thinks for all the work you put into the mod. I was wandering if you ever thought about adding ocean exploration branch to tech tree? I think it would add even more "depth" to an all ready great mod. Thanks again!

Thanks! If someone lays the ocean stuff out for me I will be glad to include it.

42 minutes ago, RocketRyleigh said:

I really like the goal of this mod, and the far more choice driven career it provides. The one thing I wish was different is the techs you unlock in the initial "Aviation" node in a mostly stock career. You don't get access to any cockpits or jet-engines until a later node, so I guess I don't understand why there's a point to unlocking a Mk0 Liquid Fuel Fuselage when you have no purpose for it until the following node, when you will get the Juno and Small Circular Intake. Do we need to have a stepping stone in between which provides parts you can't use yet?

Again, I am a fan of your mod, which is why I bring this up at all.

The aviation side of the tree is pretty abysmal compared to the other branches.  This is because I mostly am a rocket man.  I hope to improve it now that I have a quick process for ordering the tech tree.

[RocketRyleigh]

5 hours ago, Probus said:

The aviation side of the tree is pretty abysmal compared to the other branches.  This is because I mostly am a rocket man.  I hope to improve it now that I have a quick process for ordering the tech tree.

You've done an amazing job as it is and I would not want to suggest otherwise. Knowing the original reason you developed it, I totally understand why you've put more time into the rocket related branches; KSPI isn't really about aviation lol. I just figure any input into tech tree balancing will help you with that process, like with the aviation branch.

I have patience and faith, and will stay in the loop. Keep up the good work!

Edited April 21, 2016 by RocketRyleigh
Didn't actually mention my point.

[DarkonZ]

KSP 110_1230
ETT v20160205

Indeed,

Wow, what a monstrosity ETT is. That's a good thing BTW! Should have looked more into this way sooner.

So I recently got KSP 110_1230 up and added this mod. First thing I noticed were two broken lines way out on the left side of the tree. I think near Advanced Electro-Magnetic Systems and GriddedThrusters. There are some lines there, but they don't connect to anything. Something mucked up with the config?

While I'm at it. How come ETT seems godlike whenever I try to change around parts in my own MM configs? All I wanted to do was to take the stock thermo part, already modified by another mod with MM, and stick it to TechRequired = start. That fails with ETT always seeming to win. I've made a few of my own MM configs and I've yet to run into this. Don't bother pointing me at the MM docs (Read that stuff a 1000 times), cuz that won't magically make everything all right. Clearly, I'm missing something basic. Any suggestions? Would it have anything to do with this?


@TechTree:FOR[zETT] // September 12th, 2015
{
    !RDNode,* //Delete all research nodes
    {
    }
// Add ETT nodes back starting with place holders for many CTT nodes.


Oh well, a salute to the ETT dev(s). Excellent work.

[garwel]

Hey there, I'm testing this mod now and it looks like the best (i.e. most balanced & logical) tech tree I've tried so far. Well done!

Looking forward to USI parts also being arranged in the right way.

PS: Is it intended behaviour that RemoteTech's Probe Core Upgrade is available in the Start node? I think it was supposed to only unlock with Unmanned Tech (see https://remotetechnologiesgroup.github.io/RemoteTech/guide/parts/).

Edited April 22, 2016 by garwel

[DrNuke]

22 hours ago, DarkonZ said:

KSP 110_1230
ETT v20160205

Indeed,

Wow, what a monstrosity ETT is. That's a good thing BTW! Should have looked more into this way sooner.

So I recently got KSP 110_1230 up and added this mod. First thing I noticed were two broken lines way out on the left side of the tree. I think near Advanced Electro-Magnetic Systems and GriddedThrusters. There are some lines there, but they don't connect to anything. Something mucked up with the config?

It looks like expGriddedThrusters and specializedPlasmaGeneration had their hideEmpty flags set to True, which keep them from showing up in the tech tree. If you change the flags to False they show up.

[Cornholio]

I just want to say, I've been using this mod in a 1.0.5 save testing out certain mods that I haven't used before 1.1 is realistically playable, and I have to say, this is absolutely fantastic.  It knocks the pants off of the stock tree.  The options and organization are amazing.  I also love how there are MANY nodes that are more expensive science-wise in small increments.  HIGHLY recommend this mod.

[DarkonZ]

@DrNuke Thanks!

I thought the config had all the node chains defined correctly (as far as this newbie was concerned), but it never crossed my mind (nor did I check) the node might be hidden. In CTT, none of the nodes are hidden. Not a one!

Regarding what you say, how does that account for the other 8 or 9 lines that have 'hideEmpty = True'? Did the dev(s) do that on purpose?

Since I'm no expert at MM, would it be safe to assume I could create a personal patch that makes sure "ALL" ETT tech nodes get 'hideEmpty = False' regardless?

Anyway, thanks again,

[garwel]

I love this mod, it's gives an entirely new depth to the game. But I think many parts (both stock and mod-added) need to be rearranged. Sometimes an advanced part is available too early (like SCANsat's SCAN SAR Altimetry Sensor or UKS Fabricator) or two similar parts are in different nodes (like stock 1x6 and 2x3 non-retractable solar panels). Is it something you need help with? I think the community could assist you with this, but it's better to have a systematic approach (at least to have a spreadsheet or something to collect data).

[Probus]

I will answer all your questions shortly.  I wanted to give you a quick look at the next rev of the tree done with a recompiled version of YongeDevil's plug in:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/etrxn1d3venpfs6/ETT-Pre.zip?dl=0

This is not the official release, but if you are reading this you are probably interested in ETT.  It shouldn't break saves too much maybe only 75-90% of the time.   You were warned.

Let me know what you think.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Probus
Dangit! Already found a couple of errors.

[Probus]

On 4/21/2016 at 6:02 PM, DarkonZ said:

KSP 110_1230
ETT v20160205

Indeed,

Wow, what a monstrosity ETT is. That's a good thing BTW! Should have looked more into this way sooner.

So I recently got KSP 110_1230 up and added this mod. First thing I noticed were two broken lines way out on the left side of the tree. I think near Advanced Electro-Magnetic Systems and GriddedThrusters. There are some lines there, but they don't connect to anything. Something mucked up with the config?

Yes.

While I'm at it. How come ETT seems godlike whenever I try to change around parts in my own MM configs?

ETT is godlike.  The sooner you realize that the sooner you'll be happy. 

All I wanted to do was to take the stock thermo part, already modified by another mod with MM, and stick it to TechRequired = start. That fails with ETT always seeming to win. I've made a few of my own MM configs and I've yet to run into this. Don't bother pointing me at the MM docs (Read that stuff a 1000 times), cuz that won't magically make everything all right. Clearly, I'm missing something basic. Any suggestions?

Don't use ETT.  Read the disclaimer.  This only a "just for fun mod".

Would it have anything to do with this?
<...>
Oh well, a salute to the ETT dev(s). Excellent work.  <-- You're sarcasm is appreciated and helpful.

New version does not use Module Manager so you can change it up however you want to.

[Probus]

On 4/22/2016 at 2:13 AM, garwel said:

Hey there, I'm testing this mod now and it looks like the best (i.e. most balanced & logical) tech tree I've tried so far. Well done!

Looking forward to USI parts also being arranged in the right way.

PS: Is it intended behaviour that RemoteTech's Probe Core Upgrade is available in the Start node? I think it was supposed to only unlock with Unmanned Tech (see https://remotetechnologiesgroup.github.io/RemoteTech/guide/parts/).

USI is only pseudo supported.  If its not on the list it has not been updated in a while (1.0.0).

@garwel, I believe it is intended behavior.  Since ETT starts out unmanned, I think I made it available at start to support that.

[Probus]

2 hours ago, garwel said:

I love this mod, it's gives an entirely new depth to the game. But I think many parts (both stock and mod-added) need to be rearranged. Sometimes an advanced part is available too early (like SCANsat's SCAN SAR Altimetry Sensor or UKS Fabricator) or two similar parts are in different nodes (like stock 1x6 and 2x3 non-retractable solar panels). Is it something you need help with? I think the community could assist you with this, but it's better to have a systematic approach (at least to have a spreadsheet or something to collect data).

I am constantly updating the tree so things change for balance all the time.  Sometimes a part gets put in too early or late.  That's for sure.  But, believe it or not, I am very systematic when I put the parts in.  

For instance the solar panel problem: I've grouped the solar panels (hopefully) in ascending nodes by the amount of power they put out.  I found this to be better for balance purposes.

Another oddity you might find is that I sometimes put a 1.25 size part in the first node but a 2.5 and 0.625 in node second node.  This is to simulate technology being able to make the part smaller and make a larger version of the part that is more powerful.

I sometimes start with large parts and progress to smaller and more efficient versions later in the tree.

There is a method to my madness, but always point out a part that you think is in the wrong place, either here or by PM.  I will move it or explain why its there.  Sometimes I move it, don't like it there and move it back in the next rev.  Just trying to balance all the parts is quite daunting.  The science parts can be especially so.

I hope you enjoy it as ETT progresses.  It will always be a WIP.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Probus

[garwel]

Ok, I'll give some specific suggestions then.

1. The main problem I see in this new tree (which in general looks even better than the old one) is in early game: liquid fuel engines are available before SRB (3 science vs. 16). This is not only ahistorical, but it also makes small SRBs impractical (to me, at least) when you already have "Reliant". In theory, you can reach space in your first launch if you stack enough tanks. I liked the old idea of first having to deal with SRBs before you could unlock first LFEs. I understand why you wanted to remove "Flea" from Start node (to give more freedom to player to choose their favorite method of propulsion), but I believe it should be made available sooner than "Reliant" and "Swivel".
2. Launch Clamps 3 node immediately follows 'Launch Clamps and Advanced Actuators'. Did Launch Clamps 2 get lost?
3. Rockomax Brand Adapter is at Advanced Rocketry 2.5, but in my opinion it should be available earlier, at General Rocketry 2.5, where 2.5-m structures are introduced (besides, 02 adapter is already there). The Adv. Rocketry 2.5 would then introduce, so to speak, tank-adapters.
4. Precision Propulsion appears to be a collection of unrelated parts: FL-T800 Fuel Tank (which should fit better at Basic Rocketry or General Rocketry 2.5), 1.25m Service Bay and TR-18D Stack Separator (these should probably go to Basic Rocketry 1.25m or General Construction). Otherwise, a change of node name might be in order (e.g., to Rocket Engineering 1.25m or something).
5. RT-10 "Hammer" is available at the same time as BACC, which is much more powerful.
6. SCAN SAR Altimetry Sensor (hi-def altimetry scanner from SCANsat) is available at Engineering 101, i.e. only 15 science points after SCAN RADAR (low-def scanner). It makes the use of the latter impractical. IIRC, the stock config for SCANsat is to give the high definition sensors in late mid-game, already after the biome scanner. So it would fit better at Advanced Detection (and the node name suits well). Somehow, I can't find the Multispectral Sensor from SCANsat, but it should then go to Experimental Science (to have some distance from the other two scanners).

   I'm not writing here about UKS/MKS parts, which @RoverDude will hopefully help arrange. They are quite a mess ATM, frankly.

Edited April 24, 2016 by garwel

[Probus]

2 hours ago, garwel said:

Ok, I'll give some specific suggestions then.

1. The main problem I see in this new tree (which in general looks even better than the old one) is in early game: liquid fuel engines are available before SRB (3 science vs. 16). This is not only ahistorical, (not meant to be historical, I have another tree for that in the works ) but it also makes small SRBs impractical (to me, at least) when you already have "Reliant". In theory, you can reach space in your first launch if you stack enough tanks. I liked the old idea of first having to deal with SRBs before you could unlock first LFEs. I understand why you wanted to remove "Flea" from Start node (to give more freedom to player to choose their favorite method of propulsion), but I believe it should be made available sooner than "Reliant" and "Swivel". Noted and adjusted.  
2. Launch Clamps 3 node immediately follows 'Launch Clamps and Advanced Actuators'. Did Launch Clamps 2 get lost? Yes.  Found it, gave it a good talking to, and put it back where it was supposed to be.
3. Rockomax Brand Adapter is at Advanced Rocketry 2.5, but in my opinion it should be available earlier, at General Rocketry 2.5, where 2.5-m structures are introduced (besides, 02 adapter is already there). The Adv. Rocketry 2.5 would then introduce, so to speak, tank-adapters. Good catch!
4. Precision Propulsion appears to be a collection of unrelated parts: FL-T800 Fuel Tank (which should fit better at Basic Rocketry or General Rocketry 2.5), 1.25m Service Bay and TR-18D Stack Separator (these should probably go to Basic Rocketry 1.25m or General Construction). Otherwise, a change of node name might be in order. Good catch!
5. RT-10 "Hammer" is available at the same time as BACC, which is much more powerful. I have them grouped by power of SRB.  Unfortunately this is the way they were broken out.  May look into adding one more node in this branch.
6. SCAN SAR Altimetry Senson (hi-def altimetry scanner from SCANsat) is available at Engineering 101, i.e. only 15 science points after SCAN RADAR (low-def scanner). It makes the use of the latter impractical. IIRC, the stock config for SCANsat is to give the high definition sensors in late mid-game, already after the biome scanner. So it would fit better at Advanced Detection (and the node name suits well). Good catch! Shouldn't be there. Somehow, I can't find the Multispectral Sensor from SCANsat, but it should then go to Experimental Science (to have some distance from the other two scanners). The multispecral is down with the antennas.  I may want to move the SCANsat sensors down to the antenna branch.  This would give it purpose for those not playing with Antenna Range or Remote Tech.

   I'm not writing here about UKS/MKS parts, which @RoverDude will hopefully help arrange. They are quite a mess ATM, frankly.  Yes. I've completely overhauled that part of the tree since I put UKS/MKS in a long time ago.

Thanks.  Updated where shown.

[DarkonZ]

Take it easy Probus. I didn't intend sarcasm nor do I intend to create drama. Unfortunately, when this newbie gets frustrated, he tends to forget how to read. The problems I had were ALL my own in that ETT came in behind my own config patches and wiped them out.

->ETT is godlike.  The sooner you realize that the sooner you'll be happy.<- Yes, your sarcasm is appreciated and helpful.


Now on a more serious note, and hopefully I haven't ticked you off so much, but I have a question regarding Kerbalism. In that mod scrubber efficiency is based on tech. When you research new tech, a small black box pops up telling you that you've just increased scrubber efficiency. The values involved look like this:

ScrubberEfficiency
{
  tech0 = miniaturization
  tech1 = precisionEngineering
  tech2 = scienceTech
  tech3 = experimentalScience
}

Clearly, that won't work so well with ETT. Since I just started with ETT and am not a science type at all, I can't possibly come up with correct tech slots. Could I beg ask the question of how YOU would re-arrange that tech regarding ETT? Sure, I could easily assume scrubbers won't be in unmanned or pure aero-flight, but where else SHOULD they be. I figure it this way, if YOU state it, then its law. Done deal and no arguing.

BTW - ETT is a step or three above a "just for fun" mod.

Any suggestions appreciated,

[Probus]

2 hours ago, DarkonZ said:

Now on a more serious note, and hopefully I haven't ticked you off so much (not going to happen @DarkonZ, but I have a question regarding Kerbalism. In that mod scrubber efficiency is based on tech. When you research new tech, a small black box pops up telling you that you've just increased scrubber efficiency. The values involved look like this:

ScrubberEfficiency
{
  tech0 = miniaturization
  tech1 = precisionEngineering
  tech2 = scienceTech
  tech3 = experimentalScience
}
It looks to me that this is based on the level of the Tech Center and not the tech tree itself.  I could be wrong on that. 
Clearly, that won't work so well with ETT. Since I just started with ETT and am not a science type at all, I can't possibly come up with correct tech slots. Could I beg ask the question of how YOU would re-arrange that tech regarding ETT? Sure, I could easily assume scrubbers won't be in unmanned or pure aero-flight, but where else SHOULD they be. I figure it this way, if YOU state it, then its law. Done deal and no arguing.
This brings up a good point.  If a part is defined in a node and upgraded in another node it could cause problems with ETT.  It can be fixed with a patch cfg file to change the upgrade node to the ETT equivalent node.

BTW - ETT is a step or three above a "just for fun" mod.
Thanks!  
Any suggestions appreciated,

[DarkonZ]

3 hours ago, Probus said:

It looks to me that this is based on the level of the Tech Center and not the tech tree itself.  I could be wrong on that. 

Ahhh... I didn't consider that! I think Kerbalism sets it all up as purely tech node based. Not that I checked...

How about if I ask you a more basic question?. Forget about what other mods do/define/change. What if stock KSP had scrubber efficiency to deal with. Where would you place those upgrades on the ETT tech tree? Trust me, my choices on this are bound for disaster. Should you answer this, then at least my own configs can be used and a FAKE kerbalism config can finally be called *.cfg.

Look, no pressure, but it would help!

[Probus]

3 hours ago, DarkonZ said:

Ahhh... I didn't consider that! I think Kerbalism sets it all up as purely tech node based. Not that I checked...

How about if I ask you a more basic question?. Forget about what other mods do/define/change. What if stock KSP had scrubber efficiency to deal with. Where would you place those upgrades on the ETT tech tree? Trust me, my choices on this are bound for disaster. Should you answer this, then at least my own configs can be used and a FAKE kerbalism config can finally be called *.cfg.

Look, no pressure, but it would help!

I would put it in the space station branch.

[TheAnswerIsIsaacNewton]

Just getting back into the Kerbal for 1.1, and I found this.  Very nice mod,.

 

Two things:

Is there any way to add custom nodes via MM/config files?

Given the number of other people's mods you are supporting, have you considered breaking up the tree into separate files?  One for the tree/stock parts, and separate one for each mod... then you could even encourage the mod owners to submit their own node assignments.

 

 

[joebopie]

I've just remembered B9 aerospace, how could I forget about that for my plane career. let me know when things are good to go as im very happy to help add that to the Tech tree as well as the Mk2 expansion.

[Probus]

8 hours ago, TheAnswerIsIsaacNewton said:

Just getting back into the Kerbal for 1.1, and I found this.  Very nice mod,.

 

Two things:

Is there any way to add custom nodes via MM/config files?

Given the number of other people's mods you are supporting, have you considered breaking up the tree into separate files?  One for the tree/stock parts, and separate one for each mod... then you could even encourage the mod owners to submit their own node assignments.

 

 

Thanks!

I've just converted the tree into a new system that supports MM/Config files.  It will be available on the next release.

Separate files are not an option at this point, but I would encourage modders to submit where they would like their parts to appear.  Much less work on me.

1 hour ago, joebopie said:

I've just remembered B9 aerospace, how could I forget about that for my plane career. let me know when things are good to go as im very happy to help add that to the Tech tree as well as the Mk2 expansion.

Things are good to go @joebopie.  Well... Almost.  After some of the feedback I am getting, I am thinking about changing the aircraft side to match the theme of the breakout of the rocket side.  For example, have branches for control surfaces, wings, intakes, engines, mk1, mk2 & mk3 fueltanks/cockpits, landing fear (i mean gear), etc...

The new Yonge Tech Tree system I am using will make that relatively painless.

[SaintWacko]

This is by far my favorite tech tree mod I've used, but the sheer number of mods I use means that there are always some parts out of place (MK2 hybrid engines alongside the first, tiny jet engine). Is there anything we can do to help get mods added to the tech tree? If you could give a quick rundown of how to add parts from a mod to ETT, I'd be more than happy to work on that with some of mine.

[joebopie]

6 hours ago, Probus said:

Thanks!

I've just converted the tree into a new system that supports MM/Config files.  It will be available on the next release.

Separate files are not an option at this point, but I would encourage modders to submit where they would like their parts to appear.  Much less work on me.

Things are good to go @joebopie.  Well... Almost.  After some of the feedback I am getting, I am thinking about changing the aircraft side to match the theme of the breakout of the rocket side.  For example, have branches for control surfaces, wings, intakes, engines, mk1, mk2 & mk3 fueltanks/cockpits, landing fear (i mean gear), etc...

The new Yonge Tech Tree system I am using will make that relatively painless.

Sounds good to me the only thing I would suggest is make sure some control surfaces come with first lot of wings, as one without the other is pointless.

@SaintWacko if you like your planes there is a good chance what im going to be doing after Probus has reorganised the aviation nodes, will be alot of what you were thinking of.

im defiantly going to do a cfg for B9 aerospace, Mk2 expansion OPT space plane parts, mabye Quiztech plane parts and a bunch of Minor plane parts like the Mk2 & Mk3  essentials

 

Edited April 26, 2016 by joebopie

[Box of Stardust]

Question: what does 'compatible with CTT' entail? How does it change the tree?

[SaintWacko]

3 hours ago, joebopie said:

Sounds good to me the only thing I would suggest is make sure some control surfaces come with first lot of wings, as one without the other is pointless.

@SaintWacko if you like your planes there is a good chance what im going to be doing after Probus has reorganised the aviation nodes, will be alot of what you were thinking of.

im defiantly going to do a cfg for B9 aerospace, Mk2 expansion OPT space plane parts, mabye Quiztech plane parts and a bunch of Minor plane parts like the Mk2 & Mk3  essentials

 

Oh thank goodness. So many of my fancy plane parts are unlocking out of place right now!