Kerbodyne Plus Development Thread

[cy4n]

5 hours ago, AJTheMighty said:

Maybe it'd be circular but the core would be 3m and the ring would be wide as a standard T404 module

Ooh! So the ring would be T404 and the core would be 3.75m? That would be awesome! Just imagine, the T404 cargo bay disconnecting... except for the centrifuge, which would start to spin...

Edited March 25, 2016 by Osmium

[Table]

Another suggestion I'm totally fine if you don't like it Bonus

 

A huge radiator, similar to the one on the ISV Venture Star from Avatar (If you don't know what it is, google it :D)

I would love for it to have heating effects, and since you're a master of detailing parts, I would love to see one of these HUGE Radiators

[Siphonophore]

1 hour ago, Table said:

Another suggestion I'm totally fine if you don't like it Bonus

 

A huge radiator, similar to the one on the ISV Venture Star from Avatar (If you don't know what it is, google it :D)

I would love for it to have heating effects, and since you're a master of detailing parts, I would love to see one of these HUGE Radiators

Oh yes, this would be so wonderful - in addition to solar panels we should have radiators in this mod

@Bonus Eventus take @Table's suggestion and see if you can make it a reality!

 

[Bonus Eventus]

Quick Update:

KP 1.1 won't be out till sometime in April. I have several parts I'm working on, and a lot of them require me to do quite a bit of research.

Learned a lot this week about plasma engines. As far as I understand there are two problems with scaling plasma engines. Exhaust velocity directly correlates to energy. In some designs it's 1:1 (1 newton per watt). So a plasma engine might have high ISP but it's electric power to thrust ain't so good. The other issue is that as the power goes, up so does the temp, that's why plasma engines tend to erode as thrust increases. These two issues have been the bane of VASIMR's development.  But, there's more.

As the power goes up so does the mass of the generator payload. To get to 200kn of thrust would take 200kw of power. That's more power than all of the power generation of the ISS combined, adding a lot of weight to the dry mass of the craft, which in turn reduces isp. But wait, there's more!

There's also the problem of maintaining high thrust density or rather the surface area of the exhaust port.  If you just make it bigger, the exhaust velocity goes down and so does ISP. So you end up in a weird engineering loop where you try to increase one thing but then have to compensate for a bunch of other consequences of that change, blablabalbablabla. This is why Robert Zubrin is in favor of chemical rockets to get to Mars over VASIMR. 

However, some awesome scientists from the plasma lab at Princeton have been working on a Lithium Lorentz Force Accelerator. Here is an excerpt from their paper found here.

Quote

1.2
Advantages and Applications of Li LFA’s Among all candidate electric propulsion options, the Li LFA has the unique capability of offering extremely high thrust densities (102 to 105 N/m2). This feature, the LFA’s ability of processing very high power (104 to 107 W) through a small, compact and simple device, and its high specific impulse (1000-4000 s) put it in a class by itself for application to many thrust-intensive and energetic missions such as demanding cargo and piloted planetary missions. For more power-limited near-term applications the LFA could also compete with other EP options especially for applications such as orbit-raising of massive payload. Since the Li LFA becomes adequately efficient (>30%) only at higher power level (>30 KW) (see Ref. [6] for instance) and since no such high power sources are available in space, the device has been classified in the US as an “advanced propulsion option.”

That's good man, that's real good.  But, it doesnt' solve the power generator problem. The Li LFA doesn't become adequately efficient until fed over 30 kilowatts. That's a lot of power. Still have to find a low mass, high power generator.

PS: Thanks for all the awesome feedback guys!

Edited March 27, 2016 by Bonus Eventus

[Table]

10 minutes ago, Bonus Eventus said:

Quick Update:

KP 1.1 won't be out till sometime in April. I have several parts I'm working on, and a lot of them require me to do quite a bit of research.

Learned a lot this week about plasma engines. As far as I understand there are two problems with scaling plasma engines. Exhaust velocity directly correlates to energy. In some designs it's 1:1 (1 newton per watt). So a plasma engine might have high ISP but it's electric power to thrust ain't so good. The other issue is that as the power goes, up so does the temp, that's why plasma engines tend to erode as thrust increases. These two issues have been the bane of VASIMR's development.  But, there's more.

As the power goes up so does the mass of the generator payload. To get to 200kn of thrust would take 200kw of power. That's more power than all of the power generation of the ISS combined, adding a lot of weight to the dry mass of the craft, which in turn reduces isp. But wait, there's more!

There's also the problem of maintaining high thrust density or rather the surface area of the exhaust port.  If you just make it bigger, the exhaust velocity goes down and so does ISP. So you end up in a weird engineering loop where you try to increase one thing but then have to compensate for a bunch of other consequences of that change, blablabalbablabla. This is why Robert Zubrin is in favor of chemical rockets to get to Mars over VASIMR. 

However, some awesome scientists from the plasma lab at Princeton have been working on a Lithium Lorentz Force Accelerator. Here is an excerpt from their paper found here.

That's good man, that's real good.  But, it doesnt' solve the power generator problem. The Li LFA doesn't become adequately efficient until fed over 30 kilowatts. That's a lot of power. Still have to find a low mass, high power generator.

PS: Thanks for all the awesome feedback guys!

Keep up the great work man!

[Herr Doktor Strangemember]

6 hours ago, Bonus Eventus said:

That's good man, that's real good.  But, it doesnt' solve the power generator problem. The Li LFA doesn't become adequately efficient until fed over 30 kilowatts. That's a lot of power. Still have to find a low mass, high power generator.

PS: Thanks for all the awesome feedback guys!

When talking low mass high power it seems nuclear would be the way to go. Most submarine reactors seem to generate in the area 150MW-180MW from what I can find out, Of course low mass when talking a nuclear marine power plant is relative. However something that size does fit in the Kerbodyne-Plus dimensions, and you can't beat the energy density of a nuclear plant.

[cy4n]

5 minutes ago, Herr Doktor Strangemember said:

When talking low mass high power it seems nuclear would be the way to go. Most submarine reactors seem to generate in the area 150MW-180MW from what I can find out, Of course low mass when talking a nuclear marine power plant is relative. However something that size does fit in the Kerbodyne-Plus dimensions, and you can't beat the energy density of a nuclear plant.

Good, because Bonus is already working on a MASSIVE nuclear reactor that will hopefully make enough power for the plasma engine

[Bonus Eventus]

7 hours ago, Herr Doktor Strangemember said:

When talking low mass high power it seems nuclear would be the way to go. Most submarine reactors seem to generate in the area 150MW-180MW from what I can find out, Of course low mass when talking a nuclear marine power plant is relative. However something that size does fit in the Kerbodyne-Plus dimensions, and you can't beat the energy density of a nuclear plant.

The problem with nautical reactors for space is that, the sub acts as a heat sink, so they don't need much in the way of cooling. I suppose that's where the giant radiators would come in. With the large spherical reactor I was working on the thought was for this to be an upgrade to a lower tere generator, to be coupled to a fusion drive. I don't think the fusion drive will make it into v1.1, mostly because I want to get some general feedback first from a stable release. The thought is to have a tech tree progression for carreer mode that works something like this: 1st tere plasma engine/1st tere power plant ---->2nd tere plasma engine/2nd tere power plant. 

Items in green are parts I still need to finish before 1.1. Those in orange may or may not make it in time.

• T202 upgrade (redesigned from the ground up—more options, including hollow versions,service modules, and modular utility parts—think scanners, fuel tanks, batteries, data servers, comms )
• A large custom strut that's way stronger than a normal strut (ATM this part is super buggy)
• A new line of 3.75 and 7.5 round crew modules (Again think ISS. Probably won't get to the IVAs for these)
• New adapter that allows for perpendicular attachment of the T202 to 3.75 and 7.5 round modules.
• Orange structural truss that's 15m long (squarish profile)
• Stationary radiators (I want to add some foldable ones but I'm holding off on that for now)
• Mid sized nuclear reactor (not sure if it will be T202 or 3.75 round)
• Plasma Engine (not sure if it will be T202 or 3.75 round)
• Redesigned docking ports (t202, t204, 3.75, 7.5) (I will definitely get the T404 and T202 in, not sure about the others)
• NRAX Converter
• Atomated Science Lab
• T404 and T202 Control Moment Gyroscopes (SAS)
• 7.5 round fairing
• Exterior lights

Some parts that I'm considering but which might not be made at all:

• Modular ISS Quest style airlock with eventual IVA (want to make this surface attachable, but not sure that it's possible)
• Smaller solar panels
• Exterior Kerbal seats
• Electric RCS
• Ablative shields and shadow shields (7.5, 3.75, and super huge)
• 2nd stage 3.75 and 7.5 round chemical rocket engine for Assent/Dissent Vehicles
• 7.5 service module

Edited March 27, 2016 by Bonus Eventus

[Bonus Eventus]

From what research I did last night, I think the medium nuclear reactor should be a fast cooled fission reactor (probably sodium). Found this paper from NASA as well, detailing megawatt class reactors. I think a brayton cycle gas turbine would fit well with a fast cooled reactor.  @FreeThinker for IE how do you think about electric charge and electric charge per second? In this thread @cantab suggested 1 ec = 1 kj, which seems pretty good to me. I want to recalibrate the electric input/output of all the parts in Kerbodyne Plus before 1.1

Edited March 28, 2016 by Bonus Eventus

[FreeThinker]

15 hours ago, Bonus Eventus said:

From what research I did last night, I think the medium nuclear reactor should be a fast cooled fission reactor (probably sodium). Found this paper from NASA as well, detailing megawatt class reactors. I think a brayton cycle gas turbine would fit well with a fast cooled reactor.  @FreeThinker for IE how do you think about electric charge and electric charge per second? In this thread @cantab suggested 1 ec = 1 kj, which seems pretty good to me. I want to recalibrate the electric input/output of all the parts in Kerbodyne Plus before 1.1

Alright, let me clarify a few things and the logic behind them. The 1 ec = 1 kJ/kW is already well established standard, multiple mods use it, but Fractal, the original developer of KSPI is probably the first one who applied it consistently. Fractal also correctly identified a major problem with using EC for reactors and high power usage, which is the lack of prioritizing. Some System are simply more important than others. You can make good parallels with the human body. Above all else, it will try to keep the hearth pumping and the brains functioning. In a Rocket, this will be the either the main computer core or keeping the crew alive. Now if you rely on the stock EC system, and some electrical engine would require a lot of power, critical systems, like SAS are suddenly starved making them fail to function well. the Megajoule system of KSPI fixes. this by prioritizing engines to the lowers priority. So it will first try to keep critical system alive, them keep and reactor alive and anything left can be fed to the engines. KSPI-E build on this further by making the Megajoule resource behave as a short time capacitor, which loses all power the moment it loses power

Edited March 29, 2016 by FreeThinker

[Rushligh]

y'all are totally going tot own on this and i love it. As for nuclear sub reactors that is all ture: however the near 0 kelvin of space is a lot colder than the ocean. I think that you should implement passive radiators (kspi and stock) into your hollow hull segments (that's exposed to space) act as a radiator. i mean they do have a bloody massive surface area so why not?

[Bonus Eventus]

57 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

Alright, let me clarify a few things and the logic behind them. The 1 ec = 1 kJ/kW is already well established standard, multiple mods use it, but Fractal, the original developer of KSPI is probably the first one who applied it consistently. Fractal also correctly identified a major problem with using EC for reactors and high power usage, which is the lack of prioritizing. Some System are simply more important than others. You can make good parallels with the human body. Above all else, it will try to keep the hearth pumping and the brains functioning. In a Rocket, this will be the either the main computer core or keeping the crew alive. Now if you rely on the stock EC system, and some electrical engine would require a lot of power, kritical systems, like SAS are suddenly starved making them fail to function well. the Megajoule system of KSPI fixes. this by prioritizing engines to the lowers priority. So it will first try to keep critical system alive, them keep and reactor alive and anything left can be fed to the engines. KSPI-E build on this further by making the Megajoule resource behave as a short time capacitor, which loses all power the moment it loses power

Thanks for clearing that up FreeThinker. You've brought up an interesting point, yet again. I'll have to think about what to do there regarding priority. 

[DStaal]

37 minutes ago, Rushligh said:

y'all are totally going tot own on this and i love it. As for nuclear sub reactors that is all ture: however the near 0 kelvin of space is a lot colder than the ocean. I think that you should implement passive radiators (kspi and stock) into your hollow hull segments (that's exposed to space) act as a radiator. i mean they do have a bloody massive surface area so why not?

'Cold' doesn't exist, only heat does.  The problem is that water is a very good conductor of heat, and vacuum is a very poor one.  So a submarine can use a very small radiator to push excess heat to the ocean (in fact, they probably have more problem with the other way around - keeping the sub warm enough to live in.  So they doen't need any radiator.) while a spaceship needs a huge radiator to try to get the heat to go someplace, because there's nothing in space to absorb it.

In fact, in some ways describing 'the temperature of space' is a nonsensical question - heat is a property of matter, and vacuum by definition lacks matter.  So there's no heat, and therefore no temperature.  You can only describe the temperature of objects in space - and a nuclear reactor can get very hot very quickly.

[Rushligh]

Just now, DStaal said:

'Cold' doesn't exist, only heat does.  The problem is that water is a very good conductor of heat, and vacuum is a very poor one.  So a submarine can use a very small radiator to push excess heat to the ocean (in fact, they probably have more problem with the other way around - keeping the sub warm enough to live in.  So they doen't need any radiator.) while a spaceship needs a huge radiator to try to get the heat to go someplace, because there's nothing in space to absorb it.

In fact, in some ways describing 'the temperature of space' is a nonsensical question - heat is a property of matter, and vacuum by definition lacks matter.  So there's no heat, and therefore no temperature.  You can only describe the temperature of objects in space - and a nuclear reactor can get very hot very quickly.

Good point. I've been out of my thermodynamics classes too long. What you need is some kind of abalator system... something that injects a VERY heat conductive gass or liquid onto a radiator core and expels it into space; thereby cooling the ship as a whole. sorta like the the thermal engines, but far more efficient and used with a specific given resource to vent heated mater. Combined with the atmosphere processors it could be a viable system. I would also be nice if there was a part that acted as a heat magnet (for heat/waste heat) a sort of thermal super conductor that could be jetisoned with each progressive stage as a sacrificial anode, thereby removing significant heat. 

im just grasping at straws as I come up with ideas on my commute home from work. Not reealllyy thinking things through lol. 

Actually along that line of thought... what about a thermal rcs jet? An inline module placed adjacent to a reactor with an array of thermal nozels? . It could also be a thermal bridge between a thermal engine and a reactor. The output power of the engine would lessen as the rcs uses more resources. Sort of like a 'gimbal addon' 

[DStaal]

The problem with an ablator is that you've now got to refill your radiator system at regular intervals. 

On the other hand, there is a design that basically does that and then collects the ablator again after it's radiated it's heat: Liquid Droplet Radiators.  You minimize losses, and get a very efficient (and damage-resistant) design.  As long as you aren't trying to use it while you're accelerating, of course.   (Or are very careful to align it along the axis of acceleration.)  I wouldn't mind seeing one in KSP.

[Bonus Eventus]

39 minutes ago, Rushligh said:

Good point. I've been out of my thermodynamics classes too long. What you need is some kind of abalator system... something that injects a VERY heat conductive gass or liquid onto a radiator core and expels it into space; thereby cooling the ship as a whole. sorta like the the thermal engines, but far more efficient and used with a specific given resource to vent heated mater. Combined with the atmosphere processors it could be a viable system. I would also be nice if there was a part that acted as a heat magnet (for heat/waste heat) a sort of thermal super conductor that could be jetisoned with each progressive stage as a sacrificial anode, thereby removing significant heat. 

im just grasping at straws as I come up with ideas on my commute home from work. Not reealllyy thinking things through lol. 

Actually along that line of thought... what about a thermal rcs jet? An inline module placed adjacent to a reactor with an array of thermal nozels? . It could also be a thermal bridge between a thermal engine and a reactor. The output power of the engine would lessen as the rcs uses more resources. Sort of like a 'gimbal addon' 

 

24 minutes ago, DStaal said:

The problem with an ablator is that you've now got to refill your radiator system at regular intervals. 

On the other hand, there is a design that basically does that and then collects the ablator again after it's radiated it's heat: Liquid Droplet Radiators.  You minimize losses, and get a very efficient (and damage-resistant) design.  As long as you aren't trying to use it while you're accelerating, of course.   (Or are very careful to align it along the axis of acceleration.)  I wouldn't mind seeing one in KSP.

Take a look at this page at Atomic Rockets. It details what the exact problem is for spacecraft design, as well as the equations for determining the surface area of the radiators. LDRs are covered as well. They're really cool btw  

Edited March 29, 2016 by Bonus Eventus

[DStaal]

There it is!  I knew I'd seen it on that site!

[Rushligh]

Now im determined to find a way to make thermal rcs jets. O_O 

[Bonus Eventus]

My original plan for the first round of radiators (for 1.1) was to include radiator parts very similar to the stock wings (as far as shapes and how they fit together) so one can design very large arrays of rigid radiators. Now I'm rethinking things...again

[Siphonophore]

Just now, Bonus Eventus said:

My original plan for the first round of radiators (for 1.1) was to include radiator parts very similar to the stock wings (as far as shapes and how they fit together) so one can design very large arrays of rigid radiators. Now I'm rethinking things...again

Here's a really good idea- you can make the radiators VERY visually similar to the ISV Venture Star from Avatar's radiators, much like this except a bit more varied in shape/size and with heating effects like that except they glow orange-white at their hottest - and they'd be tungsten radiators.

[Table]

1 hour ago, AJTheMighty said:

Here's a really good idea- you can make the radiators VERY visually similar to the ISV Venture Star from Avatar's radiators, much like this except a bit more varied in shape/size and with heating effects like that except they glow orange-white at their hottest - and they'd be tungsten radiators.

YESYESYESYESYESYESYES, OR Bonus could just make seprerate large radiators so we could put them together in one rigid piece, I think that'd be much better and more flexible

[FreeThinker]

7 hours ago, Bonus Eventus said:

 

Take a look at this page at Atomic Rockets. It details what the exact problem is for spacecraft design, as well as the equations for determining the surface area of the radiators. LDRs are covered as well. They're really cool btw  

Yes, a functional liquid droplet system would be truely the ultimate radiator, but I guess it will be very hard to ccreate a good model and animation for it.

[Herr Doktor Strangemember]

1 hour ago, FreeThinker said:

Yes, a functional liquid droplet system would be truely the ultimate radiator, but I guess it will be very hard to ccreate a good model and animation for it.

Well you could make it look like a 'normal' flat panel radiator but have the panels translucent? Would that be possible? Or even doable?

 

OT, in the future be careful with Atomic Rocket links I just lost 6 hours to it reading about various radiators, drives, centrifuge, etc, it's like TVTropes for nerds.

[FreeThinker]

9 minutes ago, Herr Doktor Strangemember said:

Well you could make it look like a 'normal' flat panel radiator but have the panels translucent? Would that be possible? Or even doable?

 

OT, in the future be careful with Atomic Rocket links I just lost 6 hours to it reading about various radiators, drives, centrifuge, etc, it's like TVTropes for nerds.

Yes, Hard Science fiction can be brutal. Although the facts are mosly consistant, when it comes to perfomance it is often becomes self inconsiistant , especialy when multiple sources are used that use either conservative or optimistic performance specs. In KSPI-E I solve this problem with Tech Level, with parts starting with the conservative performances and with more techs unlocked gradualy get the optimisitc performances at the end of the tech tree, where highly optimistic technologies like FTL drives are unlocked.

Edited March 29, 2016 by FreeThinker

[Bonus Eventus]

22 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

Yes, a functional liquid droplet system would be truely the ultimate radiator, but I guess it will be very hard to ccreate a good model and animation for it.

Ultimately, the way I would approach this is with particle effects. But, I'm not clear how to do that in the cfg, outside of engine fx.

EDIT: OK, back to the original radiator plan. Going static and modular, for now. This is like tier one radiators and later you'll be able to unlock more advanced ones.

Hopefully, if I'm clever enough, people will be able to make a wide range of radiator patterns. Myself I really dig the radiators that were supposed to be on the Discovery in 2001:

Edited March 30, 2016 by Bonus Eventus