[WIP][1.8.x] SSTULabs - Low Part Count Solutions (Orbiters, Landers, Lifters) - Dev Thread [11-18-18]

[Shadowmage]

5 minutes ago, RaiderMan said:

docking port issues by XRaiderV1.7, on Flickr

I've prodded at the available matching set of docking ports and the rescale sliders appear to do precisely bubkiss

What scale sliders?  There should not be any scale slider on the station, the docking port, or the SC-A parts -- none of them support scaling.  If you do have scale sliders on any of those parts -- there is something 'wrong' with your installations (other mods?)

However, it looks like you are trying to use the wrong size docking ports.  You want the DP-0 (0.625m) docking ports for compatibility with the SC-A.  The DOS modules should all have an adapter option that is compatible with the smaller docking ports.  Select the proper adapter for the station-core mount (it should be labeled 4:1 or 4-1), add the proper docking port (DP-0), and it should all line up perfectly.

(Yes, it is intentional that the Soyuz has the same size docking ports as the Apollo; and it is also intentional that these are a different size than those used on the Orion.... )

Edited November 30, 2017 by Shadowmage

[RaiderMan]

oh that explains so much....its RECESSED into the ruddy orbital module on the soyuz...

I'm stupid..

[Shadowmage]

15 hours ago, vossiewulf said:

Mage, would it be possible to allow modification of say a fuel tank outside the editor if you have N rocketparts on hand? Right now just thinking of being able to change what it contains, I have a giant booster tank on my space station that brought up rocketparts and it would be more useful to me if I could switch it over to LH2. Pathfinder allows freely changing containers and although that certainly makes things easier, I never much liked it from a design standpoint. On the other hand, requiring a reasonable number of rocketparts to perform a conversion like that makes sense to me.

https://github.com/shadowmage45/SSTULabs/issues/525

The main problems standing in the way of implementation are.... it was never intended to be used in the field.  So much of the code makes assumptions that it would only ever be changed in the editor that fixing it is.... going to be complicated.  And as mentioned -- the conservation of mass problems -- SSTU's tanks dry-masses are based upon the currently selected contents -- any change to those contents, and the dry mass of the tank -also- needs to change.  This additional mass has to come from (and/or go to) somewhere.  (yes, it will likely use RocketParts or MaterialKits(with USI) for this added mass .... but it is still an entire level of code interaction that will need to be written.... after I've cleaned up all the 'in-editor-only' assumptions in the existing code)

(of course, complicated is what I do... but it will still take time)

[tater]

In real life, aside from the sort of total rework concepts like "wet lab," altering tanks contents in flight is not a thing.
 

Given that @Shadowmage has said that EPL-like functionality is a future goal, it seems to me that a "solution" to reusing those tanks would be that your station has a construction yard part, and the used tanks get recycled (their dry mass gets converted to raw materials, and you build yourself a new tank).

The fitting out tanks are functionally like Cygnus, or Dragon, or even a COS module. They are crew-safe pressure vessels with huge hatches to move stuff. Converting them to propellants would be virtually impossible---and turning a prop tank into a habitat is possible, but still really hard.

 

[Remanent]

Just got the mod, and am starting a new game in career.  the decoupler SSTU - SC-GEN - PDC - Custom Decoupler appears under Basic Rocketry, but the stock decoupler is in Engineering 101.  

[tater]

11 minutes ago, Remanent said:

Just got the mod, and am starting a new game in career.  the decoupler SSTU - SC-GEN - PDC - Custom Decoupler appears under Basic Rocketry, but the stock decoupler is in Engineering 101.  

They're both at the same 5 point unlock, which is pretty trivial.

[Pappystein]

6 hours ago, tater said:

 

The fitting out tanks are functionally like Cygnus, or Dragon, or even a COS module. They are crew-safe pressure vessels with huge hatches to move stuff. Converting them to propellants would be virtually impossible---and turning a prop tank into a habitat is possible, but still really hard.

 

Tagging on to Tater's comment to amplify why converting tanks in flight is not a real world thing.

If you wanted to take a crew accessible tank (like on dragon or cygnus) and convert it to a fuel tank in space (not built from the ground up)  you would have to put tanks within the tanks and their goes any sort of efficiency or Real ability to use.   Delta V on such a setup would be less than half of an ideal tank of a similar over all volume.  Honestly probably closer to 25% of that ideal ISP.    Converting such a tank to fuels would be the last resort of the desperate. 

Converting a Fuel tank to a "wet or dry workshop"  is easier because you are REMOVING parts of the tanks.   However the interior of such a setup is VERY spartan.  That is why the US finally decided to rebuild a Saturn IVB tank on the ground for Skylab.  They could make the interior safer, and more useful many expensive rocket launches.    Building a fuel tank with the accouterments for use as part of a space station's habitable section would greatly reduce efficiency as well but now you are talking 50-75% idea dV...

This is why in real space flight none of these convertible systems have ever actually flown and been used for anything more than some basic tests.

[vossiewulf]

7 hours ago, Shadowmage said:

https://github.com/shadowmage45/SSTULabs/issues/525

The main problems standing in the way of implementation are.... it was never intended to be used in the field.  So much of the code makes assumptions that it would only ever be changed in the editor that fixing it is.... going to be complicated.  And as mentioned -- the conservation of mass problems -- SSTU's tanks dry-masses are based upon the currently selected contents -- any change to those contents, and the dry mass of the tank -also- needs to change.  This additional mass has to come from (and/or go to) somewhere.  (yes, it will likely use RocketParts or MaterialKits(with USI) for this added mass .... but it is still an entire level of code interaction that will need to be written.... after I've cleaned up all the 'in-editor-only' assumptions in the existing code)

(of course, complicated is what I do... but it will still take time)

Thanks, understood. Was hoping it would be easier than that.

[Agustin]

I am having these. Is it normal? or is there something wrong with my install?

Spoiler

[ERR 17:17:15.676] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-DIFF' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.677] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-NRM' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.678] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-GLOW' not found!

[LOG 17:17:15.681] Load(Model): SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-MOUNT-SRB-B
[ERR 17:17:15.687] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-DIFF' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.688] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-NRM' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.689] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-GLOW' not found!

[LOG 17:17:15.692] Load(Model): SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-MOUNT-SRB-C
[ERR 17:17:15.697] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-DIFF' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.698] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-NRM' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.699] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-GLOW' not found!

[LOG 17:17:15.702] Load(Model): SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-MOUNT-SRB-D
[ERR 17:17:15.708] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-DIFF' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.709] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-NRM' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.710] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-GLOW' not found!

[LOG 17:17:15.713] Load(Model): SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-MOUNT-SRB-E
[ERR 17:17:15.717] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-DIFF' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.719] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-NRM' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.720] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-GLOW' not found!

[LOG 17:17:15.722] Load(Model): SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-MOUNT-SRB-F
[ERR 17:17:15.728] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-DIFF' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.729] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-NRM' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.730] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-GLOW' not found!

[LOG 17:17:15.733] Load(Model): SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-MOUNT-SRB-G
[ERR 17:17:15.741] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES2-White-DIFF' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.742] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES2-White-NRM' not found!

[LOG 17:17:15.745] Load(Model): SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-MOUNT-SRB-UA
[ERR 17:17:15.751] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES2-White-DIFF' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.752] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES2-White-NRM' not found!

[LOG 17:17:15.755] Load(Model): SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-MOUNT-SRB-UB
[ERR 17:17:15.765] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES2-White-DIFF' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.766] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES2-White-NRM' not found!

[LOG 17:17:15.769] Load(Model): SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-MOUNT-SRB-UC
[ERR 17:17:15.777] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES2-White-DIFF' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.779] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES2-White-NRM' not found!

[LOG 17:17:15.781] Load(Model): SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-MOUNT-SRB-UD
[ERR 17:17:15.792] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES2-White-DIFF' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.793] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES2-White-NRM' not found!

[LOG 17:17:15.796] Load(Model): SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-MOUNT-SRB-UE
[ERR 17:17:15.801] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES2-White-DIFF' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.802] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES2-White-NRM' not found!

And by playing yesterday I remember there were some 'parts' within 'parts' were not having any metallic textures... I could change color but metallic and glow did not load or somehing. Moving the sliders did nothing. i think it might have something to do with the ERR logs, right? I am using Textures Unlimited with PBR.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Agustin

[Jimbodiah]

Which parts?

[RedParadize]

@Agustin These are all SRB texture. Go look under SSTU/Assets/ and look if you can find these. If not its your install that failed. If yes, well I would still reinstall...

 

Edited December 1, 2017 by RedParadize

[Shadowmage]

1 hour ago, Agustin said:

I am having these. Is it normal? or is there something wrong with my install?

  Reveal hidden contents

[ERR 17:17:15.676] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-DIFF' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.677] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-NRM' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.678] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-GLOW' not found!

[LOG 17:17:15.681] Load(Model): SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-MOUNT-SRB-B
[ERR 17:17:15.687] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-DIFF' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.688] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-NRM' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.689] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-GLOW' not found!

[LOG 17:17:15.692] Load(Model): SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-MOUNT-SRB-C
[ERR 17:17:15.697] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-DIFF' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.698] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-NRM' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.699] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-GLOW' not found!

[LOG 17:17:15.702] Load(Model): SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-MOUNT-SRB-D
[ERR 17:17:15.708] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-DIFF' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.709] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-NRM' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.710] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-GLOW' not found!

[LOG 17:17:15.713] Load(Model): SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-MOUNT-SRB-E
[ERR 17:17:15.717] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-DIFF' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.719] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-NRM' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.720] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-GLOW' not found!

[LOG 17:17:15.722] Load(Model): SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-MOUNT-SRB-F
[ERR 17:17:15.728] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-DIFF' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.729] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-NRM' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.730] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES-White-GLOW' not found!

[LOG 17:17:15.733] Load(Model): SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-MOUNT-SRB-G
[ERR 17:17:15.741] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES2-White-DIFF' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.742] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES2-White-NRM' not found!

[LOG 17:17:15.745] Load(Model): SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-MOUNT-SRB-UA
[ERR 17:17:15.751] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES2-White-DIFF' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.752] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES2-White-NRM' not found!

[LOG 17:17:15.755] Load(Model): SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-MOUNT-SRB-UB
[ERR 17:17:15.765] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES2-White-DIFF' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.766] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES2-White-NRM' not found!

[LOG 17:17:15.769] Load(Model): SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-MOUNT-SRB-UC
[ERR 17:17:15.777] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES2-White-DIFF' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.779] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES2-White-NRM' not found!

[LOG 17:17:15.781] Load(Model): SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-MOUNT-SRB-UD
[ERR 17:17:15.792] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES2-White-DIFF' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.793] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES2-White-NRM' not found!

[LOG 17:17:15.796] Load(Model): SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-MOUNT-SRB-UE
[ERR 17:17:15.801] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES2-White-DIFF' not found!

[ERR 17:17:15.802] Texture 'SSTU/Assets/SC-ENG-SRB-NOZZLES2-White-NRM' not found!

And by playing yesterday I remember there were some 'parts' within 'parts' were not having any metallic textures... I could change color but metallic and glow did not load or somehing. Moving the sliders did nothing. i think it might have something to do with the ERR logs, right? I am using Textures Unlimited with PBR.

Those messages are 'normal' and expected for quite a few models.  As I don't use the stock shaders for my parts, but HAVE to export them from PartTools with the stock shaders, they end up with missing texture references.  Do not worry -- the proper textures get assigned to those models through plugin-code.

Now... if you actually have parts that are -missing- textures... then you can worry.  You'll know, as they'll show up gray/white/mirror metallic in the editor.

(technically, those messages shouldn't exist... they are an 'error' message, and should indicate something has gone wrong.  However... stock code does not cooperate very well with unassigned materials/meshes, and from an implementation standpoint the textures names should never be encoded into the binary model file; they should be handled through config-based setup).

 

1 hour ago, Agustin said:

Moving the sliders did nothing. i think it might have something to do with the ERR logs, right? I am using Textures Unlimited with PBR.

Simply because not everything has been converted yet.  I'm a single person, with only finite amounts of time.  I also manage multiple mods, have a full time job, and life outside of modding and KSP.  SSTU has -hundreds- of models and textures and -thousands- of texture-sets that need to be converted.  Its a lot of work.  It would still be a lot of work for a whole team of people.  Not going to happen instantly, or even 'quickly'.

If you have a list of parts/models (need to be very specific on what .mu model / meshes), feel free to file a GitHub issue with the information.  Can't guarantee when I'll get to converting any particular part/model, but if it isn't on the issues list, I can nearly guarantee that it will get forgotten about.

[Agustin]

that intertank has no metallic shaders.... And I reinstalled to make sure

Just read your reply. I totally understand. And I don't know exactly what .mu file is this. But that's ok anyways... if its normal then I am okay with it.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Agustin

[Shadowmage]

54 minutes ago, Agustin said:

that intertank has no metallic shaders.... And I reinstalled to make sure

Yep, that looks like a model that got missed (or has some errors in its config).  Certainly not using the PBR shader either way (otherwise that metallic slider would make it shiny...).

Thanks for the find; have added that onto my list of stuff to investigate for tomorrow's release (no guarantees, but I'll -try- to get to it).

[Remanent]

17 hours ago, tater said:

They're both at the same 5 point unlock, which is pretty trivial.

Trivial, Yes.  but keeping in line with other items of the same type, no.

[tater]

It’s not like the stock tree makes even a little sense.

[Shadowmage]

15 minutes ago, Remanent said:

but keeping in line with other items of the same type, no.

Keeping in line with SSTU -- it is exactly where it should be.  The rest of the 'decoupler' upgrades and decoupler-parts in SSTU are along the rocketry/construction/composites line, and not along the science/electrics line.

(I don't give two hoots about the stock equivalent tech balance at this point, its an utter non-sensical mess, and not worth spending time thinking about; if you run the SSTU-Optional patches, it'll even remove all those pesky stock parts for you... and then you won't even know that there are differences)

[tater]

Sitting in my kid’s school parking lot laughing ^^^^

 

Edited December 1, 2017 by tater

[Remanent]

Naw, all good. His mod, his rules. I honestly haven’t had time to look further into the tech tree to see how he had setup things.

[tater]

Eventually you’ll add the optional bits that excise the ugly stock parts.

Unfortunately, @Shadowmage Just made it possible for people to vastly improve the ugly stock parts, so you might end up delaying their removal  .

[Shadowmage]

LoL... from the KSP-Weekly:

Quote

The team also completed our design discussion around better support for engine clusters and began work on the necessary parts and part modules.

I'm not sure if I should be offended, flattered, or worried. 

Who wants to bet it still won't work as well as the SSTU setup? (re: specific features; I'm fairly sure their implementation will probably be cleaner on the UI end of things; but I doubt they'll be able to match the feature-set of the SSTU-ModularEngineCluster)

[Sudragon]

Just now, Shadowmage said:

LoL... from the KSP-Weekly:

I'm not sure if I should be offended, flattered, or worried. 

Who wants to bet it still won't work as well as the SSTU setup? (re: specific features; I'm fairly sure their implementation will probably be cleaner on the UI end of things; but I doubt they'll be able to match the feature-set of the SSTU-ModularEngineCluster)

One wonders if they read the forums. you've had clustering for how long?

[RedParadize]

4 minutes ago, Shadowmage said:

LoL... from the KSP-Weekly:

I'm not sure if I should be offended, flattered, or worried. 

Who wants to bet it still won't work as well as the SSTU setup? (re: specific features; I'm fairly sure their implementation will probably be cleaner on the UI end of things; but I doubt they'll be able to match the feature-set of the SSTU-ModularEngineCluster)

They may or may not had been inspired by your work. Eider way, that's mean your philosophy is great. Now does it change anything for you? Personalty I do not know, but what's for sure is that even if they released a PBR on top of it your stuff would still be awesome. Your part modularity is better, we can make everything looks like it came from the same factory. We can't do that with stock look and philosophy. If they are going that way you have a long long advance, they would have to redo everything.

I think you should be flattered. And I think you will be even more flattered when they release it.

[Shadowmage]

9 minutes ago, Sudragon said:

One wonders if they read the forums. you've had clustering for how long?

I have my suspicions that their implementation will be specifically for dealing with 'pre-built' engine clusters; e.g. the KR-whatever-X4 (with 4 nozzles) and Twin-Boar (2-nozzles), and will be more intended to deal with 'single engine failure in a cluster' and/or engine-out capabilities.  Just my guesses though; mostly because I highly doubt that stock will start supporting dynamic multi-nozzle engine clustering.

 

[tater]

(faked the robot arm with a couple beams)

The COS parts are substantially smaller in diameter than Lockheed shows the DSG versions, above. I faked the airlock with a MFT tank. An airlock part that works like the new docking ports (variable backplate, ideally with the node less submerged) would be cool. Either surface mount it (almost no backplate), or extent the backplate such that it's something like the one shown above.