A Thread for Writers to talk about Writing

[Just Jim]

13 hours ago, KSK said:

I'm not sure there is one. However, if it helps, I've read very good examples here that cover pretty much the whole range of options from 'classic' after action reports consisting of nothing but screenshots and film script style dialogue, all the way through to stories with no pictures at all. So I'd say go with whatever you find easiest to write.

If you want a couple of examples, I always liked Patupi's fics which I would consider to be  illustrated stories - the pictures are nice but the writing would pretty much stand on its own. For a more recent example, it's pretty hard to beat Just Jim's saga of Emiko Station. That's a bit more picture heavy than Patupi's work and the pictures tell a little more of the story, although there's plenty of good stuff in the text too! Thinking about it, that might be the kind of balance you're looking for.

 

Edit:  Completely off-topic but Jim and Kuzzter's screenshots and craft designs are really giving me the KSP itch again. Not a lot of point starting a new game this close to 1.1 but I sure can't wait for 1.1 to hit.

 

Oh wow... I missed my name in here... thanks for the compliment!

As for pictures, I find the balance a bit of a challenge.  More than anything, I don't want to just post any ol' picture.  Like you said, I want it to really say something. 
I like taking my time and setting up a shot as perfectly as possible, especially if it's in a critical part of the story. 

This is probably the best example I've done so far.  One picture that really says 1000 words:

[Ten Key]

19 hours ago, Sanic said:

Is there a good balance or rule of thumb for separate pictures and text? I'm always worried I don't have enough of each one.

I'm afraid this is so subjective that I can't really offer a good answer here. I would say that the text should give context to the pictures, and the pictures should provide weight to the text. And I would say that the old "pics or it didn't happen" thing doesn't apply to the vast majority of mission reports or works of fiction. We trust you when you tell us that your rocket got to orbit under its own power. I try to limit myself to "glamour shots", and if you ever start thinking about using an imgur album, I can almost guarantee you that you have too many pictures.  

2 hours ago, KSK said:

Encouragement vs pestering - is there a good time to give a thread a friendly bump to ask the author how the next bit of writing is coming along?

Heh. 

My general reaction to that sort of thing is equal parts encouragement that someone cares, and guilt that it's taking so long. But if (when ) there's a long pause, it probably means I'm well and truly stuck. So if a writer is the one doing the prodding, they run the risk of having a half finished, unsolicited manuscript dumped into their inbox, with a heading along the lines of "PLEASE HELP".  

[Mister Dilsby]

20 hours ago, Sanic said:

Is there a good balance or rule of thumb for separate pictures and text? I'm always worried I don't have enough of each one.

My opinion for a graphic novel is to use the absolute minimum of each to tell the story. Pacing is really important and difficult to get right. Let's take the example of a launch to orbit. How many words, panels, pages do you use to show that action? It depends on a lot of things. How unique is this launch? Is it the first one ever, and all of KSC is filled with fear and trepidation? Or is it the sixth orange tank this morning going up to fill the space station? A huge part of the writer's craft is in letting the readers know what they need to pay attention to. Pacing is one technique we use to do this. But if your pacing is drawn out, signaling there's a lot of interesting stuff going on, and you don't deliver--you lose their trust. 

Here's a couple of lifts to LKO from my work by way of example:

Did you miss it? Well, hopefully the pictures made it clear Kenlie got to orbit--but that's not what's important. It's the log he's writing that's important, and getting to orbit is just backdrop. Contrast with:

...and the M7 STILL isn't in orbit! (it took one more page to circularize) Why spread this one out? Because--

--the mere fact Bill and Jeb are lifting off in this stolen ship is a huge plot point, requiring reader attention
--I needed panel space to get in all of Mort and Bill's dialogue
--I thought readers would want to bask in the awesome of Bobak and his team taking over KSC2 for more than a few panels
--the M7 is a new ship that's going to feature prominently in the future story, when it lands on Eve. Extra panels help readers get familiar with it.
--it was NOT a routine flight. There's interesting stuff in the way the ship flips, churns and still makes it on SSTO. 

Pacing! I don't claim to be a master, but I do think about it a lot  

[MatttheCzar]

Starting a serial story (novella?) about the Mün.  Teaser picture, thread up in a few hours.

 

[Ehco Corrallo]

6 hours ago, Kuzzter said:

Yeah, we have a really great writing community with loads of stories to read and follow. Hope we get to see yours sometime!

Maybe. I've never really liked writing based off of an existing idea; I'd much rather blunder into conceptual ether. I've written a number of short stories and other things, but I didn't think they were fit for posting on a forum devoted to KSP. Mostly, I just wanted to offer opinions and advice to anyone who needs opinions and advice. I've done a lot of work with characters and plotting; the result: I'm pretty good at troubleshooting characters and plotlines. 

6 hours ago, CatastrophicFailure said:

I imagine many writers (like me) thrive on feedback. Myself, I've never seen such comments as "pestering," it communicates that someone is interested . Never know when a little jewel like that might encourage an author who's a bit grumpy that day to throw a few more lines down. 

If someone's interested, they'll likely include feedback in with their pestering. If they don't, I have a strategy...

Just blackmail them: "No more updates until you give me focused feedback and also reply to a survey, a poll, and a barrage of follow-up questions." 

That said, nobody's asked me for updates.  Maybe I'm just posting in the wrong places...Stupid blog. 

6 hours ago, KSK said:

You've probably found them already but if you're looking for any of those long, elaborate stories there's a link to an archive thread in my signature that might help. Unfortunately I haven't had time to update it much lately but there's still plenty of material of all shapes, genres and sizes on there.

I did notice the link to the archive thread in your signature and took a look at First Flight. You've got a great sense of pace, and you've managed to put more dialogue into the first handful of chapters than I have in the whole of the hundred page draft I'm working on currently. 

[Ehco Corrallo]

3 hours ago, MatttheCzar said:

Starting a serial story (novella?) about the Mün.

A novella is longer than a short story, but shorter than a novel. If it's a serialized short story, then it's a serial story, like you said. The Mün is an excellent setting.

 

[Just Jim]

16 hours ago, CatastrophicFailure said:

I imagine many writers (like me) thrive on feedback. Myself, I've never seen such comments as "pestering," it communicates that someone is interested . Never know when a little jewel like that might encourage an author who's a bit grumpy that day to throw a few more lines down. 

 

But that being said, I would mind the tone of a given thread before nagging too much, as not everyone might see it the same. 

I used to say I don't care what people think... I admit now I was wrong.  I love the feedback I'm getting, especially because some of the comments are so funny! I haven't encountered this pestering much...  guess I got lucky.  People seem to be OK with me only getting a chapter up every few days.

But I do like to keep people up to date.  Not spam my page, just post something fun in between chapters to let them know I'm not slacking.  Like yesterday. I came up with an absolute brainstorm of an idea for my story... and to have some fun with it, I posted, and was later accused of... jokingly... I posted a monologue... a fun little Mad Scientist style rant... something fun to let the readers know I'm up to something.... something evil.... something so brilliantly mad it will make me emperor of the known Kerbalverse!!!!!   Bwaahahahaha

Oh, see... now I'm doing it again... lol... 

 

Edited January 28, 2016 by Just Jim

[0111narwhalz]

This reminds me: I really need to write some more of Warped Stars. And some Kerbal Future, after that.

Why did I make another story, again?

 

[Just Jim]

7 minutes ago, 0111narwhalz said:

Why did I make another story, again?

Because it's fun!!! 

[Ehco Corrallo]

35 minutes ago, 0111narwhalz said:

Why did I make another story, again?

I've encountered the same issue: too many ideas. 

Creativity is a disease for which there is no known cure. (Daytime television has been shown to have a marked effect however.)

[Sanic]

2 hours ago, Ehco Corrallo said:

Creativity is a disease for which there is no known cure. (Daytime television has been shown to have a marked effect however.)

There's also no telling when you'll contract it  

[SaturnianBlue]

Id like some feedback on The Asteroid Senitnels, as I haven't been getting too much feedback on the page. I wonder if it's because it seems like a YAML, though my storyboard plans to change that fairly soon. I've been expermenting with the format again, and while it seems ok to me, I don't know what you all think. I might need to pick up the pacing a little, though I'm not exactly sure if that is a problem.

[Ehco Corrallo]

5 hours ago, SaturnianBlue said:

I might need to pick up the pacing a little, though I'm not exactly sure if that is a problem.

I glanced through The Asteroid Sentinels, and the pacing seems fine, but then again, I didn't read too far through the beginning...

I'd offer some general rules about pacing, but there aren't really any. I've been reading Dune recently, and the main story arc doesn't start until the two hundred and someteenth page. In a novel I'm working on, everything starts very quickly but it took to page 105 or so for things to really start rolling. Pacing is one of the harder things about writing, but like most things, it's really just determined by how comfortable you are with a certain pace. In general though, and this has been mentioned before, spend more time on important or dramatic events, and less time on rote ones. My recommendation is this: If you feel like you should pick up the pace, pick up the pace. If you write selfishly; if you write what you want to write, the way you want to write it, there's a good chance whatever you're writing'll come out better for the passion and interest you wouldn't have necessarily put into another project, another method, or another route. (Sometimes we have to write things we don't want to, and that philosophy falls into shambles, but that's for another brick of text.)

Did that help?

Edited January 29, 2016 by Ehco Corrallo

[SaturnianBlue]

5 hours ago, Ehco Corrallo said:

I glanced through The Asteroid Sentinels, and the pacing seems fine, but then again, I didn't read too far through the beginning...

I'd offer some general rules about pacing, but there aren't really any. I've been reading Dune recently, and the main story arc doesn't start until the two hundred and someteenth page. In a novel I'm working on, everything starts very quickly but it took to page 105 or so for things to really start rolling. Pacing is one of the harder things about writing, but like most things, it's really just determined by how comfortable you are with a certain pace. In general though, and this has been mentioned before, spend more time on important or dramatic events, and less time on rote ones. My recommendation is this: If you feel like you should pick up the pace, pick up the pace. If you write selfishly; if you write what you want to write, the way you want to write it, there's a good chance whatever you're writing'll come out better for the passion and interest you wouldn't have necessarily put into another project, another method, or another route. (Sometimes we have to write things we don't want to, and that philosophy falls into shambles, but that's for another brick of text.)

Did that help?

Yes! Hopefully you can get towards the current pages, since pacing does change a lot through out the comic.

[kookoo_gr]

i am planning on writing a graphic nover like kuzzter, parkaboy and lately like musil. my question is the following i would like to use some fanart from people that i found at devianart, can i use them as long as i mention their names for their art?

[Mister Dilsby]

41 minutes ago, kookoo_gr said:

i am planning on writing a graphic nover like kuzzter, parkaboy and lately like musil. my question is the following i would like to use some fanart from people that i found at devianart, can i use them as long as i mention their names for their art?

Hm. That's a thorny one. I guess it depends how you use it. If other peoples' art is going to be a key part of your creative work you might want to ask the artists how they would feel about it first. What if one of them wants to make a graphic novel of their own, and finds that someone else has already put word balloons on their pictures and has a bunch of people following it on the Forum?  

[Ehco Corrallo]

On 1/30/2016 at 8:07 AM, kookoo_gr said:

i am planning on writing a graphic nover like kuzzter, parkaboy and lately like musil. my question is the following i would like to use some fanart from people that i found at devianart, can i use them as long as i mention their names for their art?

At the very least you'd have to ask for the author's express personal permission. Simply crediting someone isn't necessarily enough, unless specified explicitly on the artwork that it's public domain and you can use it just so long as you credit them. In general, I'd stay as far away from intellectual property infringements as possible. 

I'm not sure how well a graphic novel based on fanart would work besides; you'd have to tailor the dialogue and prose to match the imagery, and it could limit what you'd be able to do with the writing. It might not be a problem, but it's something to bear in mind. 

Sounds like a cool idea otherwise. 

[SaturnianBlue]

I haven't had much feedback on The Asteroid Sentinels, so does anyone on this thread have feedback for the newest episodes (pg6)? I'm mostly looking for formatting and plot and character notes.

[Ehco Corrallo]

Something I wrote got pinned!

I'm slightly confused why, but I'm also really honored and excited and a little confused. 

I already said confused, didn't I? Anyway, I thought I'd share it. 

 

[Just Jim]

2 minutes ago, Ehco Corrallo said:

Something I wrote got pinned!

I'm slightly confused why, but I'm also really honored and excited and a little confused. 

I already said confused, didn't I? Anyway, I thought I'd share it. 

 

Congrats! 

[0111narwhalz]

Alright, I have a bit of a problem, and I can't remember for the life of me how I solved it last time.

I have a table of contents on the first post of Warped Stars, right? And now I can't remember how I got the post numbers for the particular comment. IIRC, it involved quoting, but I don't know.

[steuben]

 

4 hours ago, 0111narwhalz said:

Alright, I have a bit of a problem, and I can't remember for the life of me how I solved it last time.

I have a table of contents on the first post of Warped Stars, right? And now I can't remember how I got the post numbers for the particular comment. IIRC, it involved quoting, but I don't know.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/119356-a-thread-for-writers-to-talk-about-writing/&page=11#comment-2394668 will link to that.

breaking out the above example

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/119356-a-thread-for-writers-to-talk-about-writing/<-- link to the thread
&page=11 <-- the page the post appears on
#comment-2394668 <- the number of the post. pulled that from the report button.

I ended up building it by hand. But if there is an automated method, I don't know.

 

[0111narwhalz]

I figured it out. If you grab the link URL from the date at the top left of the post, it contains all that information.

[Mister Dilsby]

On 2/1/2016 at 6:20 PM, SaturnianBlue said:

I haven't had much feedback on The Asteroid Sentinels, so does anyone on this thread have feedback for the newest episodes (pg6)? I'm mostly looking for formatting and plot and character notes.

Really glad to see you still putting these out and trying to make them better. A few general comments:

• Make it visually simple. Readers have short attention spans, and we're all competing for the same eyeballs here on the Forum whether we mean to or not. Keeping it simple makes it easier for readers to digest your stories. As an exercise, look at how many different images are on one of my pages, or @Parkaboy's, or other comics here, or any "real" comic or webcomic. Also look at how good comics split the images with panel borders, and how they signal the importance of different images using size and other effects. It's about guiding the reader's eye. I think sometimes there's a lot going on in your pages, a lot of similar images that aren't arranged for my eye to follow, and there's a lot of dialogue to get through.
• Make the plot simple. I sometimes lose track of just what your kerbs are trying to do; part of it might be the amount of dialogue, part of it might be that you've changed direction a couple of times. It's that attention span thing again. Anything complicated has to be reinforced with constant repetition to lock it into reader's minds... which leads to:
• Be consistent. I know you want feedback, and you want lots of people to like your comic. But you have to resist the urge to change things around all the time to answer feedback or get more readers. Readers don't follow a comic because you ask them to. You don't get a high number of page views by talking about how many page views you have. You get readers and keep them when your comic becomes a familiar place for them. Again it's all about attention span.  
• Following on to that last bullet, be patient. Nobody can tell you how to make your comic successful. You have to try things out and see how people react--and i don't mean by getting direct feedback and writing notes from someone every time you post, I mean seeing how readers respond naturally to the work, without being prompted. (though I don't mind doing it, it's why I made this thread  ) I know it's frustrating when no one replies right away--that's going to happen sometimes. It's why you write for yourself. If you write something you would want to read, odds are there are others out there who will like reading it as much as you do.  

[SaturnianBlue]

1 hour ago, Kuzzter said:

Really glad to see you still putting these out and trying to make them better. A few general comments:

• Make it visually simple. Readers have short attention spans, and we're all competing for the same eyeballs here on the Forum whether we mean to or not. Keeping it simple makes it easier for readers to digest your stories. As an exercise, look at how many different images are on one of my pages, or @Parkaboy's, or other comics here, or any "real" comic or webcomic. Also look at how good comics split the images with panel borders, and how they signal the importance of different images using size and other effects. It's about guiding the reader's eye. I think sometimes there's a lot going on in your pages, a lot of similar images that aren't arranged for my eye to follow, and there's a lot of dialogue to get through.
• Make the plot simple. I sometimes lose track of just what your kerbs are trying to do; part of it might be the amount of dialogue, part of it might be that you've changed direction a couple of times. It's that attention span thing again. Anything complicated has to be reinforced with constant repetition to lock it into reader's minds... which leads to:
• Be consistent. I know you want feedback, and you want lots of people to like your comic. But you have to resist the urge to change things around all the time to answer feedback or get more readers. Readers don't follow a comic because you ask them to. You don't get a high number of page views by talking about how many page views you have. You get readers and keep them when your comic becomes a familiar place for them. Again it's all about attention span.  
• Following on to that last bullet, be patient. Nobody can tell you how to make your comic successful. You have to try things out and see how people react--and i don't mean by getting direct feedback and writing notes from someone every time you post, I mean seeing how readers respond naturally to the work, without being prompted. (though I don't mind doing it, it's why I made this thread  ) I know it's frustrating when no one replies right away--that's going to happen sometimes. It's why you write for yourself. If you write something you would want to read, odds are there are others out there who will like reading it as much as you do.  

So as a general rule, what's the amount of images that should be in a page? 3-4? I've kind of started to try the main image, several small ones, but I'm not sure if it's all that great yet. Also another thing: how large should the character pictures be? I'm assuming they might be a little too small. Sometimes the length of dialogue might differ by character and personality. About the plot: could it partially be because I drop a few hints for something for an episode later, but isn't really discussed much in the episode itself, and the subplots are made but really don't get put into action?