The Elcano Challenge: Ground-Based Circumnavigation (Continued)

[The_Rocketeer]

Hot heck, been so busy last few days I nearly forgot all about this. I need to add one more post to my 'evidence' thread, then I shall claim my bounty... or sig badge, whatever.

Good luck all!

p.s. @Slam_Jones if u manage somehow to pull off your Kanama/Kuez Kanal plan it would make me incredibly happy. I wish u luck.

[ScriptKitt3h]

After a long, long time of not doing any "proper" missions in my install, I decided to try my hand at an Elcano run on Duna. Yes, Duna, one of the absolute WORST places to try driving a rover in at high speeds...

After launching my rover (a working version of my older "Badger" ATV 4x4) into LKO, sticking it in the cargo hold of a dropship outbound from Kerbin to Duna, and taking said Dropship to Duna (long voyage, accomplished via strapping boosters to the sides of the Dropship's hull and pushing it there essentially), my vehicle arrived at Duna Waypoint Station (my ring station orbiting Duna), and after resting my pilots a day, I sent it to the surface...

However, shortly prior to the intended landing of the dropship and drop-off of the rover for later crewing and driving, the VTOL suffered a fuel balancing problem and barely managed to crash-land in a manner safe enough to protect the pilot and navigator aboard.

Afterwards, they hopped in the rover, placing the first flag marker for my Duna Elcano challenge, and set off for the next waypoint- until they managed to crash around several km out from the wreck of their ship.

With no self-righting gear onboard, the 2 explorers were forced to call in a replacement- in the meanwhile, the backup design rover was driven to their location with an EMS team to keep an eye on them.

I'm tempted (if the second rover crashes and burns as badly as the first one off a jump or loss of control) to restart my challenge with my new rover, due to its superior construction, albeit from whatever my last waypoint marker/flag was (which would also serve as "Point A" in my circumnavigation with the new rover). Oh well, only time (and more driving) will tell.

EDIT: Also, my save for this is all-stock craft with Scatterer for some visual FX goodness. As well, once I finish driving a bit more I'll get a route/map posted up as well, showing my existing and planned stops/markers in my trip around Duna.

Edited July 27, 2016 by ScriptKitt3h

[HazelPine]

@Claw , I've been checking this challenge on and off for about a couple months, and I feel like I should try to participate! I have a little plan which involves a boat that can drive on land, and carry stuff inside. Just a couple questions I have before I put a lot of effort in:

1. Can I do this in a science career save?

2. If I use a planet pack that changes where Kerbin is, but no aspects of Kerbin itself, is that OK or does it break the no modded planets rule?

3. Can I use a very powerful jet turbine for the boat? I have the Big Ships mod, and it has a 10,000kn ship engine (overkill, I know, but the mod has ships up to 200,000 tons),  and I'd like to know if that would be OK to use or not. If not, I can still do it with other engines, it'd just take longer.

4. If I carry a smaller rover inside the main vehicle, and carry it around for science collection (if point 1 and 2 are OK), would that be OK? It wouldn't be used to circumnavigate, just to drive around a couple hundred meters to collect science.

 

If everything is OK or figured out by tomorrow, I believe I will enter the challenge! It will be modded, and I might even do some illustrations to go along with the mission report!  Hope I'll have as much fun as I have just by toying around at the poles!

Hoping for the best,

Pine!

[Maverick_aus]

@PineDo it! It is rewarding from multiple points of view. The prep and engineering work; the aesthetics of adventure and exploring; the shared experience with the other guys debriefing, chronicling etc; and of course the attainment of a personal (and hard!) goal.

Hi guys,

Finally got around to updating the Mission Thread with all the action from days 4,5 and 6.

(*lamenting the missing imgur album embed button*...)

 

[The_Rocketeer]

@Slam_Jones & @Pine, hoping to field these to give u something to go on since Claw's a busy guy

SJ1. Surface circumnavigation is surface circumnavigation. If you can get around a planet with or without mods that should count as long as you don't fly through the air using lift or thrust to do so. If you use mods, it'll just be noted by your credit in the top post. I think Kerbal Konstructs basically falls into the mod bracket - in theory you could use it to make a smooth road all the way round Kerbin, but you'd obviously still have to spend the time driving it.

SJ2&P4. Secondary objectives are literally secondary. If your circumnavigation is completed successfully, that should be all that counts. As long as at least one craft goes a) from a point on the surface b) back to that point c) the long way round, that counts. Any auxiliary crafts u use on the way are irrelevant to this challenge, but could make a really interesting mission report

P1. It doesn't matter whether you do this in Sandbox, Science or Career.

P2. I'll let @Claw arbitrate this one personally - modded day-length or sunlight intensity for example could be issues. Personally I would say it's ok but gets the modded tag, but I have no authority!

P3. Again, I think this just gets the modded tag. That said, an engine with that amount of thrust has the potential to tear a craft apart like tissue-paper - I dread to think what it would do under physics warp!

p.s. my mission report is finished - please may I have my badge?

[damerell]

9 hours ago, Pine said:

1. Can I do this in a science career save?

2. If I use a planet pack that changes where Kerbin is, but no aspects of Kerbin itself, is that OK or does it break the no modded planets rule?

3. Can I use a very powerful jet turbine for the boat? I have the Big Ships mod, and it has a 10,000kn ship engine (overkill, I know, but the mod has ships up to 200,000 tons),  and I'd like to know if that would be OK to use or not. If not, I can still do it with other engines, it'd just take longer.

4. If I carry a smaller rover inside the main vehicle, and carry it around for science collection (if point 1 and 2 are OK), would that be OK? It wouldn't be used to circumnavigate, just to drive around a couple hundred meters to collect science.

1. I can't see why not. That would be harder than doing it in sandbox, which many of us have.

2. I feel there's something missing from your question. Why would it make a difference?

3. Does it drink fuel proportional to its thrust?

4. I cannot see why not.

[ScriptKitt3h]

Alright, after my attempt at Elcano-ing Duna using my Badger ATV, I'm going to have to restart from marker 4 on my route across the planet's Equator. Why?

For one, the current build of the game causes my ATV's poor little front wheels to lock up under "wheel blocked" status (this only happens after they hit an incline at speed, but is semi-permanent and hard to "walk off" on Duna). In addition, my new Dunecat HATR (Heavy All-Terrain Rover) is a much, much more rugged design with quite a bit more fuel for its boost rockets and room for 4 Kerbals instead of 2. On top of that, my second Badger also had a bit of a tragedy occur coming off a large jump from going over a tall dune with the boost engaged-

^I've no idea why she's happy about her situation... at all.

Total loss of the 2nd ATV, and one of the drivers got hit HARD by the ragdoll Kraken upon impact, spazzing out, stretching wildly into the stratosphere, and then violently *poof*-ing to death.

A a result, here's the updated (current) map of my route, after some minor MS paint edits for clarity (map is of the equator, though it's shown at an angle for better clarity due to debris on the far side of the planet):

So, after securing the crash site of the second Badger ATV, the Dunecat's crew preps for their long trek to the first main stop on the newly revived Elcano attempt: the under-construction surface colony going by the name of Hawking. There, I'll refuel the rover, swap the crew that have used their flags up, and hopefully have some helpful ISRU stations lined up in LDO for orbital drop along the route.

[Claw]

Hey Kerbonauts. Sorry for the slow replies. I've been incredibly busy the last week and a half, but I see a few questions that I didn't want to leave hanging. If I missed some pressing questions, please let me know. (I will have to catch up on mission reports over the next few days.)

 

23 hours ago, Slam_Jones said:

Firstly: is it still in the spirit of the challenge to build a lock or canal (a la Panama Canal) utilizing Kerbal Konstructs (assuming it is possible) to be able to complete a water-based circumnavigation properly?  If not, I'll end up having to build some massive crawlers to transport my ships at some points, which will not be kind to physics :\

So at first I felt this might fall into the "modded planets" category, but then...If you have to build the canal yourself, then it's not exactly against the intent of the "no modded planets" rule. That rule is in place for some other reasons. So I'd say if you have to get out there and actually build some sort of canal in-game (and not just a magical button swipe), then yes, I'll consider that "in the spirit" of the circumnavigation.

The alternative is that you can also look at the Master Mariner badge, which allows for near-circumnavigation of the planet while skipping the narrow land crossing to the north east of KSC (so you don't have to cross the land). However, the other constraints of the badge are that you also need to boat around Laythe, and that the depicted Kerbin route doesn't fulfill the "Kerbin Circumnavigation" badge.

 

Quote

Secondly: is it still in the spirit of the challenge to complete secondary objectives along the way?

Totally, yes.

 

Quote

...I planned on utilizing EPL (Extra-Planetary Launchpads) to be able to manufacture sounding rockets and other science vehicles to complete the contracts.

EPL is fine, so long as it isn't used to construct the circumnavigating vessel "magically" in place. By that, I mean using it as a means to circumvent the "vehicle must be delivered" rule, similar to hyperediting it into place. 

 

Quote

My other idea was a bit different: it would include BDArmory, and involve a small fleet of ships cruising Kerbins water in a circumnavigation, fighting and defeating groups of hostile ships and shore batteries along the way.

Yep, that sounds fantastic actually. Should make for quite the interesting Mission Report.

 

14 hours ago, Pine said:

@Claw , I've been checking this challenge on and off for about a couple months, and I feel like I should try to participate! I have a little plan which involves a boat that can drive on land, and carry stuff inside.

Do it!!!

Also: "I have a little plan which involves a boat that can drive on land, and carry stuff inside." Sounds perfectly within the spirit of the challenge.

 

Quote

1. Can I do this in a science career save?

2. If I use a planet pack that changes where Kerbin is, but no aspects of Kerbin itself, is that OK or does it break the no modded planets rule?

3. Can I use a very powerful jet turbine for the boat? I have the Big Ships mod, and it has a 10,000kn ship engine (overkill, I know, but the mod has ships up to 200,000 tons),  and I'd like to know if that would be OK to use or not. If not, I can still do it with other engines, it'd just take longer.

4. If I carry a smaller rover inside the main vehicle, and carry it around for science collection (if point 1 and 2 are OK), would that be OK? It wouldn't be used to circumnavigate, just to drive around a couple hundred meters to collect science.

1. Yes. I'm not sure if you mean "Science mode" or "Career mode," since you said science career (I'm not meaning to nitpick)...but in either case, any of the three game modes are completely acceptable.

2. If Kerbin is still Kerbin, then I don't have a problem. However, it would squarely put your entry into the Modded category, since it's physics altering.

3. "Very powerful" is stretching it a bit, but fine so long as the reset of it's statistics are in-line with other engines on a "near term" or "next tier" type of technology (in accordance with the modded rules). I also assume that you're using a hefty engine to match a hefty design. So in that case, I'm a bit less concerned with the thrust that it puts out, and more concerned with things like unreasonable ISP, weight, size, etc... Also, your vessel must stay securely grounded or splashed (as the case may be), and not using the 10,000kN engine to simply hover it's way around the planet.

4. Yes, totally fine So long as the little vessel isn't filling in for some portion of the circumnavigation event (as you indicated), you can drive it around all you want.

 

 

Cheers!

[HazelPine]

@Claw, I guess I'll be running some tests first then to see if the engine is too efficient before designing anything, just to be sure. Considering that on an aircraft carrier I made a couple days ago I put 20 of those engines and it went at 150m/s, I might have to see if it even scales with a smaller ship. I asked about the Kerbin thing anyways to be sure it was within the rules, and it comes with some fun challenges, like the Sun being extremely weak since Kerbin is so far from it.

Pit would be science mode, by the way.

[Slam_Jones]

38 minutes ago, Claw said:

-snip-

So at first I felt this might fall into the "modded planets" category, but then...If you have to build the canal yourself, then it's not exactly against the intent of the "no modded planets" rule. That rule is in place for some other reasons. So I'd say if you have to get out there and actually build some sort of canal in-game (and not just a magical button swipe), then yes, I'll consider that "in the spirit" of the circumnavigation.

The alternative is that you can also look at the Master Mariner badge, which allows for near-circumnavigation of the planet while skipping the narrow land crossing to the north east of KSC (so you don't have to cross the land). However, the other constraints of the badge are that you also need to boat around Laythe, and that the depicted Kerbin route doesn't fulfill the "Kerbin Circumnavigation" badge.

-snippy snip-

Hm, alrighty then, good to know.  I think I may go for the Master Mariner badge, and given the rest of the rules, I will have to figure out how to ship a multi k-ton vessel to Laythe... that'll be fun   I had originally planned to ship out a workshop and a bunch of kerbals to build the boat on site, but I can understand why that would not be allowed.  Regardless, it should be quite entertaining seeing an ocean-going ship cruising through outer space with giant boosters attached to it...

And I was unable to find a map of the Master Mariner challenge, but I assume that it involves starting on one side of the land bridge to the north-east of KSC, and go around Kerbin to the other side of the land bridge?

[Claw]

1 minute ago, Slam_Jones said:

And I was unable to find a map of the Master Mariner challenge

Ah. I see that the picture is lost. I will have to create a new one for the rules.

 

Yes, the narrow landbridge north east can be skipped (I guess it's a long way to the northeast). Just start on one side and work your way around. Essentially this route:

 

Though now that I'm looking at this route again, I might allow for another landpass...tbd!

[Martian Emigrant]

On 2016-07-26 at 7:31 PM, damerell said:

On the other hand, with a seaworthy craft, you can lock in the course and do something else [1], as long as you have a halfway decent estimate of when you'll hit land. I was limping home at 12 m/s after losing one engine before my final sea leg, but with plenty of life support supplies and good electricity management, who cared?

That's an interesting craft. Practically roll-proof, although I daresay it'll be a nuisance getting it to other planets if you ever want to. (I did experiment with a variant of mine that undocked the side engine units to stow them line astern for transport, but it wobbled like the wobbliest wobbly thing ever).

[1] I know it is at least an odd attitude to videogaming that feels I am clearly playing KSP when I've done this but that it would be cheating to time accelerate, but such is life.

The sea crossing is utter boring.

I only rode on the Mun, Minmus and Duna and I admit that a really wide rover would be good.

 

I made an tested the fuel delivery aircraft.

This is the early prototype:

 

Most people would have used drop tanks....But noooooooo. It had to be different. That is soooo Kerbal.

It fly like a badly tuned brick. But got them more fuel.

It touched 1.1 km away.

So now all is well...I just need to make it fly even further now....For next time.

I mean, how can it work you can see the sunshine through it:

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2016 by Martian Emigrant
Oops

[damerell]

I always felt the same way about the 9F steam locomotives - there's no technical reason not to have a gap there but it's clearly Wrong.

[HazelPine]

Right, just fired up KSP to see if I can use the ship engines, and I'm gonna be honest. It would be blatant cheating. The engine has 90,000 isp, and consumes around 2 units of fuel per second, and the ship parts have something like 70,000 units. Soooo... obviously I can't do it with an engine that powerfeul and efficient. I also feel it has too much thrust anyway, so I want to use another version that has around 1000kn of thrust, but a way lower efficiency, at 3200 isp. It is way too weak to push anything of size though.

So, @Claw, would it be OK if I edited the engine so that it has around 5000kn of thrust, but offset the thrust with a fuel usage of 100-200 units of fuel per second? That way, it would be able to push the boat around and also make me actually need refueling.

 

I'm experimenting with designs right now, and I need to see if I even have any kind of wheel to drive it on land. I might end up ditching the whole giant boat idea if I can't think of a way to drive it on land.

 

Edit: Made a small config for the engine and set it to the same efficiency, but 5x the thrust, and removed a bunch of generator and and radiator modules, some of which made fuel, for some reason. I think it should work properly in terms of fuel usage, as the ship parts I plan on using have a way smaller capacity, at around 6-10k of fuel. Going about testing it.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Pine

[ScriptKitt3h]

So, after performing final checks on the Dunecat HATR, the intrepid crew of 4 Kerbals set out from the wrecked Badger ATV for the next main stop on the trip around Duna- Hawking, a colony on a hill.

As they roved across the red planet's surface, the team caught some impressive air off of the dunes- but also suffered some major damage to the rover's boost system, as well as a fair amount of aesthetic wear and tear to their vehicle. However, with fuel left in the right-side, still-functional boost engine, plus a rover that still can drive, they're on their way to Hawking, where (in a roughly 35km-drive-equivalent amount of time) they'll get a replacement Dunecat, and have crew swapped out if need be.

Here's the current map of my progress (I had put a flag out on the trail shortly before I made my last drive this afternoon, but the Kraken took it and punted the thing 3.3km up, where it then crashed down far ahead of the HATR and detonated):

And yes, while the Dunecat does seem a bit worse for the wear, it's still fully functional, since the only broken wheel (front left side tire) is non-essential and the vehicle can keep on truckin' regardless.

 

Thank the lord I packed in plenty of SAS modules for self-righting...

[HazelPine]

@Claw, the engine configs are a bust, I can't get my edited edition to load in the game. I guess I'll find a way to use alternate methods of propulsion. Stay tuned for more developments!

[HazelPine]

Just to let everyone know, I made a thread for my entry as to not clog this thread, so if you guys want to check it out it's here:

Also, so far I have devised something which is still in testing:

[Paaaad]

On 2/20/2016 at 10:13 PM, Paaaad said:

Noting that I'm going forward with my on-foot Mun circumnavigation. I have finished prototyping, and the first of many pit stop craft has been landed. This is going to take a while before Valentina goes up- 34 more pit stops to go, with ~36km spacing.

Have not forgotten about this, and am still planning on doing it, but was forced to restart my game after the memory stick my install was on got broken. Just got the first Pit Stop down at a few meters away from 0°W, 0°N. The terrain seams are visible, and the landing legs are rapidly clipping in and out of the ground a little bit.

1.0.5 still as I'm still using an older computer. Also one with a rather small screen as you can probably tell.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Paaaad

[HazelPine]

Small quick update on my progress: Winches are hard, skipping drills and explosions made me decide to make a giant fuel tanker to refuel the main ship.

 

[LaytheDragon]

Not that much roving for about two days at the start of this month proved Tylo tricky for rovers (big problematic features are coming up in the distance... and going downhill at 2x requires intermittent use of the breaks to keep the Transport Trucker at a safe speed, plus tires pop commonly (not a big deal until too many pop, the truck slows, and extra time is spent inflating them all at once so they don't immediately re-break upon repairing)) and I've stopped plenty of time for quicksaves. Not even 1/8 of the way around Tylo). Rather, I may continue that mission on a later time-span (not that it was boring, just long and doubtful with the upcoming harshness) and instead focus on Duna or Ike for roving with the Transport Trucker. Now, I just need to bring one there, which should be no problem...

[The_Rocketeer]

Preview time: I have a vehicle... well, I have a rover. I haven't figured out how to make it float yet, but just for the screenshots I'm damn-well going to.

I present: the Lamb Drover Guardian





p.s. what's happened to the imgur button on the post editor? Now there's just this weird 'page' button??

[The_Rocketeer]

Here's the route I'm thinking of, doing the south pole first. If I can pull it off, I'll carry boat parts as far as the water crossing off the ice-cap and proceed back to KSC on wheels from there. Still need to do some aerial recon tho. Man this is feeling like so much more of an expedition than the last one!

[ScriptKitt3h]

36 minutes ago, The_Rocketeer said:

Preview time: I have a vehicle... well, I have a rover. I haven't figured out how to make it float yet, but just for the screenshots I'm damn-well going to.

I present: the Lamb Drover Guardian





p.s. what's happened to the imgur button on the post editor? Now there's just this weird 'page' button??

Wow, that's a beaut of a rover there! As for the imgur button, currently the embedding function for albums is broken following a major site-wide update to imgur, and as result the album embed function on here is offline for the time being. Copy+paste for images via direct link/BBcode link still works though.

[damerell]

Also, re Lamb Drover Guardian, _grone_.

[ScriptKitt3h]

After a very long, and quite rough drive, the crew of the beat-up Dunecat HATR (my 3rd total vehicle for this Elcano attempt, formally the 1st since it's a different design from the first 2) arrived in the colony of Hawking.

After arriving and securing their crew in the rover and/or the colonial Motor Pool building, a replacement Dunecat (as the current one was pretty much on its last legs) was called in via skycrane-drop...

The rover landed about a kilo north of the colony for safety reasons, as the skycrane was disposed of the old-fashioned way: pin the throttle and release all control.

After I sort out some lag issues with the general area around the colony and load up the replacement Dunecat with crew that have flags, I'll set out for the next leg of my Elcano trek across Duna.